ESF Suggestion

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Wolfborne, Mar 20, 2019.

  1. Wolfborne

    Currently, any pilot that wants to be competitive, or even semi competitive, will use the Hover Air Frame. The benefits that it offers when doing the "almost mandatory" reverse maneuver that this game has pigeon-holed us into, supersede the benefits any other air frame offers. Yes, you can run the Racer Air Frame with a rotary cannon and get some kills, but, if the enemy pilot is any good, they will simply maneuver away from you using the benefits of the Hover Air Frame.

    Which brings into question why there are three air frames? I understand the hover version and its purpose, but, what good is the dog fighting version if a hover pilot can just out maneuver you anyway? What benefit does it offer that can't be accomplished with reverse maneuvering? None, what-so-ever! Then there is the Racer Air Frame, which is my personal favorite, but, it serves no purpose in dog fighting other than to run away. Zoom in, start shooting a target, they reverse out and now you are screwed. Yes, you can pull a reverse maneuver in any of the air frames, but, the hover version is far superior, and every pilot knows that.

    DBG, please, you are on the right track toward game balance with this latest patch's changes, but, ESFs still need some work. I am not talking about their guns, but rather, their roles based on air frames. As it stands, hover is the go to choice. The game mechanics have pushed us toward that model. Here are some suggestions which will help open up the air game, get more people flying, and give everyone OPTIONS that don't **** them:

    1. Hover Air Frame: neutralize the base speed on all ESFs to 200 cruising speed. Afterburner can boost up to 250. Those that are looking to "hover fight" don't need a ton of speed. Their game does not change that much.

    2. Dog Fighting Air Frame: neutralize the base speed on all ESFs to 225 cruising speed. Afterburner can boost up to 275. Give this model a tighter turning radius so that it can track hover fighters. This will allow something other than hover duels.

    3. Racer Air Frame: neutralize the base speed on all ESFs to 275 cruising speed, making the racer the King of the Air Speed game. Afterburner can boost up to 375, making it the fastest thing in the sky. Doing this will make chases a lot more fun, as no faction has a speed/afterburner advantage, and it comes down to maneuvering and who is the better pilot.

    An after effect of these proposed changes is that neither Hover nor Dog Fighting Air Frames can catch the Racer, even if they use Quick Recharge Tanks. As it stands right now, either of those can catch a Racer that is not using Quick Recharge Tanks, and that is just wrong! It will also give us three distinct flying styles, which will be more fun for everyone, instead of just the Ace pilots who dominate the skies.
    • Up x 3
  2. Demigan

    1. This neutralizes the speed to be equal, and one ESF (can't remember which one) does not get a debuff. Better make this a set amount of velocity reduction, say 20 km/h off. That's pretty much nothing btw.

    2. Similar to the other frame, a set frame speed removes some of the uniqueness of all faction ESF's and buffs the slowest even more. The slowest ESF would get the choice of no debuff with hover frame or get more velocity with a dogfighting/racer airframe.

    3. Same as the above.


    I would rather propose something different. All frames get a buff to their turning and movement when going at the ideal speed of that frame, and a debuff when going a different speed than that.

    Hover frame for example would turn on a dime when going below 60km/h for example. Above 60km/h it would turn slower than the vanilla frame. Additionally the Hover frame has the highest braking speed, but the slowest acceleration (including when using the afterburner).

    Dogfighting air frame would have the best maneuverability when going between 100 and 150km/h for example (numbers are subject to change ofcourse). Outside of those speeds the Dogfighting frame has a worse maneuverability than the vanilla frame. It has similar acceleration/deceleration as the vanilla frame.

    Racer airframe would turn the smoothest of them all when going within 90% of it's maximum cruising speed (that would leave it room for about 20 to 25km/h to slow down before it gets a nerf to it's maneuverability). Outside of those speeds it'll have a nerf to it's maneuverability. It's acceleration would be the highest, but it would also have a lower brake speed than the vanilla frame.

    This setup means that the vanilla frame remains an option for a more jack-of-all-trades option, while the frames are more specialized. This is actually as all frames on all vehicles should be handled: Specializations with downsides as well as upsides. It also means that a hover frame player chasing a dogfighting frame player will have a lowered maneuverability allowing the dogfighter to turn the tables. If the hover frame slows down because he can take the inside track, it allows the dogfighter to outrun the hover frame due to it's better acceleration. It creates much more stragetic interaction between both players where they'll have to switch tactics and keep each other's frame in mind when engaging eachother.
    • Up x 1
  3. Silkensmooth

    Dont fix what isnt broken.
  4. Demigan

    If two of the frames are redundant because of the one-size-fits-all battle tactic employed by ESF's something is wrong.

    Also whats the problem? Shouldnt you applaude a more diverse set of options and tactics in the sky? Unless ofcourse you are too attached to simply dominating anyone who hasnt wasted hours upon hours of time just training for a single maneuver set...
    • Up x 3
  5. Silkensmooth

    A lot of people, myself included alternate between hover and racer.

    Dogfighting frame increases yaw rate making it very hard to aim properly. So just delete it.

    But another massive change to the way we fly would NOT be welcome by the majority of pilots.

    ESF have way bigger problems like every vehicle in the game being a flak platform. Dogfighter frame not being great is the least of our problems, and by a system of priority would probly be 34th on the list of things to worry about.
  6. strikearrow

    So what? So few people fly ESFs now that what THEY want to remain should be EXACTLY what is deleted
  7. Silkensmooth

    Do you even fly ESF? What is your main in game toons name? I'm guessing you are a tank player who hates ESF pilots.

    ESF cant even kill tanks anymore, so i dont know why you are so angry.
  8. Wolfborne

    Dogfighting should be the fastest turner, not Hover. If you use Hover, it is for the air brake to get you into hover mode faster so that you can pull the reverse maneuver. Speed is not a factor because air braking slows you down anyway. I agree that Hover should have the slowest acceleration but best air brake. Play style #1.

    Remove the speed equation. It should be the fastest turner and most maneuverable, plain and simple. Instead of going for the hover mode and reverse, you try and out turn or out maneuver the enemy. Middle of the road acceleration and a better air brake than Racer. Play style #2.

    Racer should be the fastest thing in the sky, period. A Dogfighting or Hover model should not be able to catch a Racer, even if they have Quick Recharge Tanks. That speed means that the Racer would have the SLOWEST turn, because the velocity pushes it into a wide turning radius. That is basic flight physics. It should have the fastest acceleration but the weakest air brake. High speed hit and run with a rotary. The traditional jet fighter. Play style #3.
  9. adamts01

    I'm normally not a huge fan of such drastic changes so late in a game's life, but the entire flight system needs to be reworked. More drastic differences in frames might help a little, but what's needed is a very simple flight model like Warthunder has. Most pilots have left this game a long time ago, so it's not like there's an air community left to hurt, not like the way CAI hurt the vehicle game.
    • Up x 1
  10. Silkensmooth

    Disagree there is nothing wrong with the way ESFs work. They are too weak vs flak but otherwise they are working well.

    The problem isnt the ESF its that ESF have no role.

    During air alerts we see tons of pilots flying around.

    Air just needs a role besides flak pinata and easy certs for invisible lock heavies.
  11. Silkensmooth

    Besides we dont need to copy another game's flight model. If that flight model is better for you, just play that game.
  12. Wolfborne

    PS2 has a flight model of its own by way of Hover Air Frame. I did not say to discard it, I said to keep it for those that enjoy that style. However, there's nothing wrong with having more than one flight model, and not force everyone that wants to try flying into a pigeon hole. Expand the game, not limit it. If you don't like the other suggested flight models, then don't use them. However, that is no reason to keep others from being able to enjoy them.
    • Up x 2
  13. IcEzEbRa

    I fly a lot. The real reason I fly a lot, and as most I speak to who do also, they just love it. I have played many other games with flight models, it is PS2's flight model, especially ESF's, that grabbed me. These aren't airplanes, but vtols. You can hover in every aircraft, just lifting the nose to 45deg and pressing thrust, moves you upward and bkward.

    I really only use Hover and Racer on ESF. Dog Fighting frame is a bit too sensitive for me, and yaw is too fast. But I know a couple of guys that only use Dog Fighting frame, because they like exactly that.

    I do understand where op is coming from, but in essence, you're asking for greater disadvantages not advantages And homogenizing some flavor, instead of enhancing it.

    my 2 xp
    • Up x 1
  14. adamts01

    I've taken the time to get decent in the air. At least 1,000+ hours with just a nose gun. I'm nowhere near the best, but in my prime I could give most pilots a good fight. So I'm no skyknight, but I share most of the same opinions as those guys. So this isn't coming from a ground or hater position.

    Some simple solutions while keeping this flight model: Let "throttle analog" lock motors in hover. Let people map yaw to the mouse. Remove that awful dead zone in pitch. Give missiles real missile mechanics, mainly limited turn rates. Possibly a slight auto aim or more spread/wiggle room for nose guns. Fix joystick acceleration so fine aiming with yaw and the stick is possible, while keeping max turn/pitch/yaw rate.

    I do think that this flight model has a ton of problems, and while it's possible to band aid a lot of them, we simply won't have enough players in the sky, even if air was given its role back. This game never had a healthy air scene. I treat these things as I do helicopters in Arma. I have the exact same key mapping, but everything in Arma is smoother and more responsive. That said, the literal handful of pilots who would leave this game do to a flight model revamp would absolutely pale in comparison to the ridiculous amount of players who would flock to the sky. "just play a different game" would be a great argument if what PS2 worked for a healthy amount of players, but it doesn't. "Don't fix what isn't broken" simply doesn't apply. But like you said, air would still need a role. Similarly, all vehicles need more of a role, especially once the fight at the next base gets going. I blame our base to base lattice system for that.
    • Up x 1
  15. Demigan

    The point is that each frame should be the best at it's respective role. If we make the dogfighting frame by far the most superior turning ship it could easily become the sole and only frame to use similar to how hover frame is almost the only choice right now.

    Currently hover frame has enough maneuverability to easily keep up with a dogfighting frame while also sporting enough speed that it takes a long time for a racer frame to escape, allowing the hover frame to basically win almost any engagement. For this purpose each frame gets an upside in it's specific role (better maneuverability at their designated speed, a better acceleration/deceleration that helps them get into that speed) but also downsides to help prevent the status-quo where a hover frame might not be as maneuverable as dogfighting or as speedy as racer but it's maneuverable and speedy enough.
    • Up x 1
  16. Silkensmooth

    How about we worry about things that are broken or in need of fixing?

    Like flak and g2a locks everywhere.

    Like g2A lockers being invisible to the ESF they are locking.

    Like flak requiring less than zero skill and locking down huge sections of the sky.

    Like flak still hitting you when you are 2 hexes away.

    Like flak maxes inside spawn rooms.

    Like coyotes being able to hit you when you arent even on the shooters screen.

    Like hyenas being miles better than the walker while requiring zero skill to use.

    Tons of things need to be addressed before we remove dogfighter frame from the game.

    Like solo ant and harasser drivers switching seats and becoming AA platforms.
  17. Demigan

    Yes! Top of the list of gameplay things broken since day 1: ESF.

    This isn't a problem. There's more AV, there's more AI, yet you don't hear them complaining about "oh my god there's so much!". This is probably one of the weakest arguments out there. We could add 500 new G2A weapons that function similar to current weapons, and the amount of G2A wouldn't change.

    You could complain about the low skill that G2A requires to hit you, but the solution to that is simple and I've advocated it for years now: Skillful G2A that does not consistently score guaranteed hits with low skill, but has firepower in return.

    This can be solved two ways:
    1: The missile gets a blip on the radar when it's fired. Hey that's already in the game! What a surprise! You could perhaps ask for things like a directional warning to tell you from where exactly the missile is being fired, but there will be no going overboard and making the lock-on user visible on radar from the moment he locks.
    2: Combine that with regular old situational awareness such as "where's the nearest spawn" and you'll catch 90% of all lock-ons in the act.

    Absolute horsecrap. Flak does require low skill, but its not capable of locking down huge sections of the sky. The sky is big [citation needed] and if you've ever done any G2A work you would know how easy it is to hide a plane in there if you do anything else than fly straight from the nearest spawn to the battle. If you have any more brains you'll also notice that your aircraft is fast, and that the ground offers a lot of terrain variation and buildings. These take away vision of the sky and with your high speed you can cross a distance of 200m in 4 seconds at cruise speed of 200km/h. This allows you to do what aircraft do best: Pop up, strike something, be gone before anyone is the wiser. This minimizes exposure to flak, limits the amount of players that can engage you and if you do it right you can even hover around for a few moments before any G2A notices you, giving you ample of time to murder something and get out again.

    But G2A vs A2G is one of pains for both sides. A2G feels it's being hit too easily and G2A feels it can't finish off a target. With your solution (500m maximum) we already know that G2A is going to be virtually useless. The flak turrets on bases got that treatment and that last range beyond 500m is required to finish off a target if RNG favors you. Without that 500m extra you are helpless as G2A.

    The solution for both parties is, again as I've already promoted for quite literally years at this point, is skillful G2A to take over from deterrent G2A weapons. You even agreed with something like a nosegun weapontype for Lightnings to perform their G2A role.

    Boo hoo. Do you even know how big a hex is? From point to point it's less than 275m, from edge to edge it's what, 230 I believe? I did a measurement once but I can't remember. I also engaged a landed ESF at 300m with a Skyguard and had less than 1 in 3 shots hit the target, meaning I would need 2 entire magazines to kill a stationary, unmanned ESF without anyone nearby to repair it. If you are 2 hexes away on ground level with the G2A unit you'll be about 450m away, and practically safe unless you were heavily damaged to begin with. If you are also at 100m altitude (which isn't much for most pilots) you can add a bunch of meters to that as well. And if you also do something called "maneuvering" it can become a complete impossibility for the slow flak to actually deal enough damage to murder you.

    If you want to solve this problem, help me get skillful G2A to replace deterrent G2A.

    Spawnrooms have extremely limited view outside and block a portion of the shots. While annoying, any G2A MAX that sticks with the spawnroom has practically nowhere to go and is a lot less dangerous than one outside the spawn. I see this as a non-issue. It's like people complaining about spawnwarriors when they camp a spawn. Don't do it in the first place and you won't create this problem for yourself.

    And you said aircraft were all peachy and balanced, right? Well imagine if you had coyote's, but they have 1/3rd the accuracy and can't chase your opponent. That's pretty much what all G2A weapons are about. But hey the solution there is also simple: Introduce skillful alternatives. Starting with making more maneuvers viable in air combat so that more players can enjoy the game. By all means keep the twisted, horrible hover combat that has plagued the game since forever and prevented players from enjoying aircraft, but make it so that the air game becomes about more than one maneuver.

    Again, that's an aircraft-based weapon. Isn't it funny that you take offense to anything that can foil the single-maneuver playstyles of an A2A pilot? You don't want a better air-game, you are in it for yourself and yourself alone.

    Are you OK? Did you notice how I am trying to make the dogfighting frame actually relevant by buffing it? What's this drivel about removing the dogfighter frame? Do you want to remove it? I sure as hell don't, I'm promoting it here to be different so it actually has a use! Not that you would listen to reason, so far you've shown you'll be only about your own solitary playstyle and will apparently invent reasons why others are supposedly wrong. Case in point: You say I want to remove dogfighter frame after I've just promoted having it buffed.

    In that case I want ESF to become 2-seaters, the secondary weapons of the ESF aren't allowed to be used as A2G or A2A platforms without a driver&gunner team present!

    Also what's next? At least a solo Harasser and ANT can't move while operating the gun, a Skyguard can do both at the same time... So are you going to make the Skyguard lightning a 2-seater as well that can only be operated with both a driver and gunner available?

    Do you even realize why an ANT would become an AA platform? Did you guess it? Probably not? Because without it aircraft would blow it apart and it wouldn't be able to do anything about it. With the G2A weapon it can defend itself but not always (against a Liberator it's still kebab and it can't escape) without a G2A weapon it's easier to just get out and redeploy because at least then you get to spawn a new one faster.
    But hey, why would you worry about the gameplay of others when you can just try to improve your own gameplay right? Who cares if you completely screw over every single player who does not fly an aircraft regularily and everyone leaves? At least you get to keep your own one-move playstyle!
    • Up x 2
  18. adamts01

    AV and AI doesn't lock down a hex+ though. I don't want to argue with you whether or not their strength is justified. I really don't feel like reading that much. But you do have to admit the AA/Air problem is unique.
  19. TR5L4Y3R


    unique? the whole of AA, a2a, g2a and g2a is simply busted ... both to a lack of skillfull hard hitting g2a, laughable esf a2a weapons and the still shi tty aircontrols for both esf a2g and a2a duty ...
  20. Campagne

    Well the only thing stopping AI and large amounts of AV from locking down an entire hex is their inability to hover a few hundred meters about the walls and obstacles.

    In an open field you bet your butt AI is going to lock down the area. Throw in some hills and walls and such and it simply loses the ability to target the enemy. Air doesn't have this issue to the same extent and neither does AA.

    We often see this happen to a degree with HE tanks on hills. The more of the battlefield they can see the more they can lock down. Air isn't the only thing that suffers for entering an area full of enemies. If anything it arguably suffers the least.