NC, VS and TR default weapons ARE GOOD

Usually I provide criticisms but not this time.

At the beginning of November I created a new account and one NC, TR and VS toons, I wanted to experiment how's life starting from scratch and evaluate the difference between having lots of different weapons (as I have on my all access 6 toons) and being forced to rely on the default ones.

I won't enter in side-by-side comparison between the weapons of each faction, but if I had to over simplify, IMHO obviously:

TR: good in short (CQC) up to medium (50m-ish) range engagements
VR: all-rounders, they do their job everywhere but not particularly well
NC: good in medium and beyond engagements

Given my old age (+50 ) my reflexes aren't top notch so my play-style is shaped accordingly: I move a lot, peek, scan the map, engage not always to kill but also to maim and make the enemy an easier target for my brothers-in-arm and achieve most of my personal kills at medium range (around 40-60m) and lots of assists in general. I avoid entering directly in a room but approach from angles (or window /ledge if LA).

All the weapons I use are equipped to match: x4 sights on each Rifle/LMG/Carbine + grip, HVA, flash suppressor or compensator, x2 sights and laser on each sidearm.

So I played with the default LMG, Carbine, Assault Rifles and sidearms. I did not miss the sophisticated NS weapons or all the SMGs I purchased. With some practice you learn to manage the side recoil of weapons like TRAC/Gauss Rifle or the ungodly vertical recoil of the Gauss SAW. Those are very valid weapons, it is only up to us to make good use of them both in terms of handling but much more in terms of creating the engagement scenario where those weapon shine.

The default weapons can and will kill everybody: it is not "default weapons kill only noobs and I need the Daymio to prevail over +100 BR toons": I have killed twice in a row a BR120 with a lousy Carbine and the guy was so pissed off to put a bounty on me.

In that DBG/SOE has made a wonderful job in designing those sets. Paradoxically, even too good because there is no real need to buy additional weapons except for niche situations: an SMG for CQC, a "pseudo primary" such as the Emissary or the Blackhand for a stalker, a ghetto sniper for Medics/HA/Engineer such a Battle Rifle.

And that most default TR weapons (TRAC especially) look atrocious. Or, well, more like most TR weapons look atrocious, with very few exceptions.

Yep - the esthetic could be improved no doubt about that

Has anyone said the starters are **** in terms of equipment \ stats?
Can't recall it, for that specific rational;

The Gauss is great - But not as a starter weapon.
It's literally set-up for a user whom understands how weapons in this game work.
It also is set-up for the wrong environment, every new HA will be in.

They did a poor choice for the Gauss Saw.
Not much of an issue with the rest of the starter weapons, beyond the NC sniper rifle being a bolt-action.
Why:
A semi-auto more easily bridges the gap between the usual full-auto weapons of the other classes, and the slower-firing weapons of the infiltrator's sniper rifles.
A bolt-action is a weapon, demanding accuracy - and is as far from the full-auto weapons as you get.
Full scope-sway, single-shot, very-keen on head-shots.
Semi-auto, can have sway removed via attachment, provides follow-up shots, and is basically a slower standard rifle of the other classes.
NC's for some reason, is a bolt-action.
NC's heavy weapon, follows suit.

Skill-weapons for the Heavy Assault, and Infiltrator; Both also for extended range strictly, compared to VS & TR.

The weapons themselves, in those starter cases, are fine - But not for the users expected to use them.
Lets not talk about the Max starters for ANY side.
Those, those they just screwed royally.

Fun fact; The reason we see cross-faction BASRs is because how much more effective BASRs were than semi-autos.

We are saying different things and IMHO both are correct...

1. ALL Starter weapons are good if used in the best context: CQC, medium, long range engagements.
2. NC weapons shine in medium to long range engagements

Now, considering that the average planetman fights at 10m distance, knows close to nothing about CoF, RoF, Bloom, leading a target, bullet drop without even entering in the realm of positioning in the best way (finding a choke point, a good cover, look at the stream of enemies to locate their sunderer) and hasn't a solid trigger discipline (forget talking about headshots) but relies on spray-and-pray then TR weapons are the best, followed by VS and NC is third and last. Yes.

Truly new players don't get it though. All the starter weapons in this game are good.

But because in most other games weapons are broken into Tiers with Higher Tiered weapons being better and starter weapons are always the lowest tier. New players tend to think (based on conversations in game with new players asking what weapon they should buy first) they need to buy a new weapon ASAP.

I almost think the game should allow under BR15 players free access to all the weapons just so they can play without making costly weapon purchases they'll regret. At BR15 all certs spent on weapon attachments are reset and only free weapons (currently starter weapons) are unlocked.

Or better yet make Koltyr like VR with every thing in the game available. When you leave Koltyr only unlocked and starter items are available.

The Gauss SAW is good but there's a reason the Combat Medic, LA and Engineer are not equipped with Reaper DMR's and ACX-11's by default.

NC need to get GD-22S or Gauss SAW S as default, or even the EM6 or something. Also the Gauss SAW subscribes to the high damage property but not the lower magazine size property, unlike the ACX-11 and Reaper DMR. I never understood this design choice.

What is mid range about the Gauss Rifle and Merc? I mean, yes, you can use them at mid range but 167/600 is competitive up close(the Anchor especially). Adding to that both of them are very controllable. Best part is if you are even a half decent player these weapons really reward you once you get into the game. As NC you really cannot complain when it comes to other carbines/ARs either. You have tons of options for CQC(even in how you want to approach it with 143-200DMG). With LMGs you got the Anchor/EM6/GD22S, etc etc.

I just find it odd that so much of NC infantry weapon discussions end up being solely about the SAW as if it represent everything NC have. It is an outlier even among 200DMG weapons, which means it is an outlier of the outliers. Makes no sense to have it as a default weapon but can we please stop pretending this weapon is the model all NC weapons are built on?

The discussion was about default weapons only, of course you have alternatives if you have certs/dbc to invest.

High DMG/low ROF weapons in CQC perform worse compared to low DMG/high ROF ones:
- at short distance the damage model favors the low DMG/high ROF in terms of raw DPS
- if you miss shots (and you will), the low ROF/high DMG weapons are penalized more for a miss (bullet vs. bullet)

The high DMG/low ROF model is typical NC (I mean again for the default weapons): LMG (SAW), Assault Rifles and Carbines and even sidearms (just compare the Mag Shot stats with the Beamer and the Repeater).

Don't get me wrong: for my playstyle those weapons are wonderful because I tend to engage at distance. But most of the typical PS2 fights occur at very close range.

Never said they weren't effective.
Just said Semi-autos, are a good introduction to sniper rifles over Bolt-actions.
Or do you expect the new user, whom has always had multiple rounds, no scope sway, and no idea of bullet-drop to handle a Bolt-action better than a Semi-Auto?

Given the location of key objectives, are not at medium or long-range, You seem to gloss over that now twice.

Key Objectives are where these weapons are basically incapable compared to the weapons designed for it.
Which are also in the starter list, but only for the other two factions.
Recall, by the nature of the Gauss Saw's full-auto: It's a trap, just like the TR weapon named the exact same.

So, perhaps when aware of this, ensure to state this is about the weapons themselves for combat, in the hands of proper operators, not as new players?
Given you apparently know the Gauss Saw isn't designed, nor is able to be used by the new players, it is given to by default.

Which is the point isn't it.
Starter weapons: In order to match, an entirely new weapon must be purchased by a new player.
Whom has only been introduced to such weapons, by the starter weapons.

If the weapons were set to be the same types, for ranges, then you wouldn't have the issue not only the random Gauss Saw as a starter-weapon, built for an entirely different range but also skill-level, competing with weapons-built-to-purpose for the very range, most objectives are at.

SAW is... far from the normal.
Every other LMG, handles a lot more differently than the SAW.
None has the requirements it has - and yet it is the starter.

Magshot stat wise, is equal neatly to the SAW.
Beyond range, bloom & clip.
It has no increased skill-gap, nor range difference compared to the Beamer - The Repeater has a shorter practical range.
But the Repeater is designed for that range, and preforms incredibly well - for even new players.

Of these weapons, the Saw is the hardest to use.
It is closer to the semi-auto snipers, than most LMG's given you must burst fire from 500 RPM.
And the range it works without being mowed down, past head-shotting, is further than most starter gear.
Which beyond the Saw & Bolt, is geared to be capable in the closer-ranges that are the objectives.

HA is the most played and as stated on the other thread, SAW possibly has the most kills of any weapon in the game.

It kinda does matter,especially considering the disparity vs. other factions in regards to starters.

VS starter pistol is still a pile of steaming excrement though, unlike TR's, says something that the VS Commissioner beats the KPH and KPU of the Beamer unlike the NC and TR versions compared to their starter pistols.

No I didn't... I wrote that and I agree with your analysis but for some reason you did not see it. Let me comment on the SAW and wrap-up everything together one more time.

Yes. SAW is difficult to handle. If I am not mistaken only the Naginata (which I use) has an higher vertical recoil, but at least its built-in CoF limiter helps. And the Naginata isn't exactly a CQC weapon either.

So:

(1) TR and VS weapons are better performing for the average planetman during the most common/frequent engagements: short range, frantic spray-and-pray.

(2) NC weapons are better performing for the half skilled/skilled planetman at less common/frequent engagements: medium/long range but leading targets, taking in account bullet drop, burst firing, ...

(3) What you need to win alerts/lock down continents? Get and secure bases, so buildings so short-range fights.

Which weapon has the highest number of kills? SAW. Which faction has the lowest number of alerts won? NC.

I wouldn't say so. Semi-autos, even with the no sway attachment, are pretty bad weapons. It is much better to get used to a weapon which you will be using rather than the awkwardness that is the semi-automatic weapons in this game. Semi-automatics are best reserved for experienced players who want a new type of challenge. The most dangerous part, however, is it makes you visible and after that 2-3rd shot a bullet with your name on it may already have been fired.

It feels satisfying to nail those double headshots but it takes a lot of effort to get into the groove. That being said, if you do this on a regular you're going to be much more lethal with a BASR or Daimyo. Indeed, the frustration of having targets running off with a bit of health left or having them turn around and blast your head off with a superior weapon might just be enough for a rage quit.

The straight-pull attachment helps with follow up shots a well. As with semi-autos though, I caution snipers to stay visible for too long. That said, since there's not really another attachment worth it is a nice to have for times when you need to keep firing.

So in the end, NC has a problem.

Never said the semi-auto was good at killing.
I said it was bridge between snipers & full-auto weapons.
As it's not, hit with one bullet, with full sway, or reload, try again.
It's try to hit with potential sway, with several changes.

Or do you seriously think, a bolt-action is safer than the Semi-auto, for users whom haven't experienced sway, or the need to head-shot yet for their weapons?

These are new players; Better to teach them a bit less quickly than "Okay, you used to have 50-100 rounds, now you have 1 bullet, a moving scope, and a massive tracer. Hit the head."

That you see, is what I am getting at;
Semi-Autos are simpler to hit the bloody target - and teach that sway is a thing, followed by saying head-shots are needed.
Bolt-Actions need a greater distance, have all the traits of a sniper rifle, and are the furthest from the rest of the weaponry.

Straight-Pull is heavenly. But what it generally does for the new player, is remove that gods-be-damned ejection from ADS.
A Semi-auto isn't gonna have that issue, is closer to standard rifles of other classes, and introduces accuracy.

A Bolt... well, you ever hit with it, or you don't.
And since they don't know sway in addition to the other demands; They will miss a lot more, with a lot more time wasted.
As well, you can't use a Bolt in closer-ranges without being able to rapidly line-up a shot, given you won't have a second shot.
A semi-auto however, is more forgiving in that respect as well.

It can't kill as effectively, but it's to teach, not kill.
That's why I say, a semi-auto is better as a starter.
Not as a weapon.

It's context dependent I daresay.

If you sniping from half a world away a lonely engineer who just landed to repair his ESF a BASR is probably better.

If you are engaging enemies at < 200m range, during an heated battle, targets moving everywhere left and rights, lots of noise, explosions, ... a SASR gives you more chances to kill a target with 2-3 rounds (SASR have a flat 334 DMG beyond 85m, one headshot and one/two body shots --> kill) allowing a few misses as well. The average player freezes for an instant when hit.

Besides SARS are particularly suited for tap-firing also due to their negative recoil recovery delay (read this, it is quite interesting: http://iridar.net/planetside2/weapons/sniper-rifles/) so you can tap-fire at approx. 200 ms (that is, 5 times per second) binding as people suggest another key on top of LMB to fire, so you won't touch the mouse at all.

This is a bit of an interesting statement. In a theoretical engagement against standard targets the SAW, Carv, and Orion all have an identical TTK with bodyshots. Under the same assumptions with headshots the SAW climbs ahead by very small margin.

What is interesting is that with bodyshots average skill with any of the three weapons is somewhat irrelevant in a direct fight. With super MLG Pro totally-not-using-head-hitbox-exploits achieveing 100% headshot accuracy, the differences would be so insignificant the players using any of the three would probably kill each other at the same time due to server latency.

With longer-ranged engagements the SAW would win out 100% in theory, but in practice the bloom destroys the TTK of a full-auto SAW. This is not untrue for the Carv and Orion as well, but it does occur to somewhat lesser extent.

The just of what I'm saying here is the SAW requires more skill to achieve roughly the same results. Having used the SAW enough to aurax it a little over twice I feel that I can firmly say the 200/500 model rewards skill less than other weapons, even over longer ranges.

It teaches the player bad habits with a bad weapon.

Meanwhile, NC starts out with a proper weapon and a clear role, e.g. you are a sniper with a sniper rifle with a 6-12x scope. If the player in question have at least heard of the FPS genre he or she will know what to do at this point. A sniper does work at a distance and a BASR is the king, queen, lord and lady of this domain.

Not really. The starter SASR gives you a 6x scope, minimum.

Thanks for the link but I've done the infiltrator thing since about 2012. Played it in every conceivable way to squad support to lone wolf sniper and there is not a single solitary situation I'd recommend someone to start sniping with a semi-automatic. Where the 6x+ SASR is useful it is thoroughly outclassed by the low magnification BASR, Scout rifles and the Daimyo.

Sorry guys, there is no way you're going to convince me the SASR is a good choice either as a teacher or as a weapon. It is something best utilised by a vet of the game who's already know what to do as a sniper.

Proper weapon; Long-Range, no in-between, single bullet, full sway.
Rest of the game: Multiple Bullets before a reload, no sway.
What bad habit is it?

Knowing the genre, doesn't teach you this game's ****** gravity.
Nor its sway, and when that starts.

King of the Long-Range sniping. No ****. Semi-Auto is for closer-ranges in general.
Semi-Auto, the weapon for the shorter ranges, with sniper characteristics.
You know, in-between you have a Rifle, and you have a Sniper rifle? The weapon best for bridging players from other class weapons.

Lone sniper, far range, most useless for the rest of the tools to assist a squad - Sensors? Only for yourself.
Semi-Auto? Capable at closer ranges, not at the same long ranges; Not built for it.
Is the Semi, more forgiving yes? Is it head-shot or die? Depends on accuracy.
Is it closer to Assault Rifles, LMG's, Carbines, and similar? Yes.
Bolt action is great for long-range killing if you know how the mechanics specific to PS2 work.
It is incapable at closer-ranges for anyone not already capable of the long-range.

Vet.
That's the ******* point: Semi-auto for starter.
You know what a starter is? Someone who isn't a vet of this game.
And isn't a Sniper of another, whom already knows PS2's specific gravity, sway mechanics some-how.
Given when you see a sniper rifle, do you think the drop will happen as fast as it does for PS2? I doubt it.