A2AM are OP

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by fart11eleven, Jan 28, 2016.

  1. fart11eleven

    I put my thesis right here at the start: a2am are OP. Why?: here is the reason what i think: when a top level ace pilot meets another top level ace pilot, and ace pilot 1 got a2am + short range esf (like rotary), and ace pilot 2 has just afterburner + the standard nose gun: if both pilots are equally skilled, the pilot with a2am will always win.

    Why do i think that?

    Simply because of the upgrades given to a2am. The lock on time is the real deal here. There is no way you can tell me otherwise. The lock on time is simply too short.

    The a2am got other problems as well. But i think the lock on time is really the deal here.

    P.S. i am a decent pilot, so i know what is up. No flames please. Just honest discussion.
    • Up x 1
  2. Jubikus

    Its pretty simple actually things specifically designed to be a hard counter to something tend to win at that something its like trying to compare a Rams .50M to an Archer against a max. The other thing is those something tend to be completely useless against everything else.

    That said A2A missiles are typically frowned upon by the Air community honor bushido whatnots and some of them even go to the length of teamkilling people they see using them.
    • Up x 8
  3. Iridar51

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    • Up x 2
  4. Iridar51

    For the sake or argument, let's assume this is true. WHY IS THAT WRONG?

    when a top level infantry player meets another top level infantry player, and one of them is SMG infiltrator, and another is a stalker with a knife: if both players are equally skilled, the player with SMG will always win. IT'S NOT WRONG FOR SUPERIOR EQUIPMENT TO WIN.

    Afterburners are mobility, like Jet Packs. Tomcats are superior firepower, like LMG + Rocket Launcher. I see absolutely nothing wrong with moblity losing in a straight up fight, because guess what, that's not what mobility is for.

    The only reason afterburners + nosegun playstyle is even a thing is because of bug/feature reverse maneuver, and considering how air meta evolved specifically in favor of reverse maneuver, it's safe to say its relative power level is higher than that of tomcats. People always go the path of least resistance.
    • Up x 12
  5. SW0V

    I agree with pretty much everything Iridar said, except one thing:


    This is not true. Some people specifically go the difficult route for the challenge or the notoriety. It's exactly this concept that has brought forth the nosegun+AB playstyle. People want to get good at it because they know it's hard.
  6. Iridar51

    Keyword "some", people like that are far and between, and even fewer of them truly commit to the cause. Literally single digits.

    Like that guy that has 16k kills with MagScatter, CloakieMcStabbins and ReconDarts, and those guys that auraxiumed candy cannon and fireworks launchers for black camo.

    Overall there's less than two dozen of these madmen. They may get notoriety, but they do not set the general trend with hundreds of people actually playing a certain a way - not trying to, but actually playing.

    Path of least resistance still applies to the "madmen", just the destination is different. Path to notoriety, in this case.

    People as a whole use what works, not what's the most challenging because they want to look cool. Otherwise everyone would be using pump action shotgun with slugs when they wanted to use a shotgun, or never play HA or MAX (lol).

    Face it, flying in general may be hip, but nosegun + burners is as mainstream as it gets, and not because it's harder than alternatives.
    • Up x 1
  7. Silkensmooth

    Yes A2A missiles are dumb. they make the air game useless and unfun for all but the small minority who like to gather in groups of 10 and spam a2a missiles on fewer numbers.

    Currently the G2A locks are just as bad or worse.

    All locks all the time. I have pretty much quit flying except for the occasional weak moment. Then i get locked repeatedly by unseen enemies and log off.
  8. Crayv

    The Tomcats are/were the most useless thing I have ever bought in this game. They are actually weaker than a HA G2A launcher. Imagine if rocketpods were less effective than the default launchers. Pilots would be in a fit about it.

    Coyotes on the other hand actually useful at times.
  9. fart11eleven

    The a2am is hardcounter to everything unless other people go decoy flares, a2am as secondary + rotary on the primary. This is a pretty huge commitment and contributes to making air loadouts all the same.

    I can fight pretty much everything with nose gun + afterburner. But against someone with a2am, who is really dedicated, try hard, and flying all 600 meters to jump, pickin the right fights, its all just check mate. 1 lock on hits = 1/3 of energy left. You get in the fight, and even if you have coyote, there is nothing against the upgraded lock on time. Once you got close and turn, you have no time anymore to escape the next, 2nd lockon.

    It is just a too dominating loadout.

    Decoy flares are just a too huge commitment cause they really just block the a2a for 5 seconds. So you still got 1/3 of your energy drained, considereing that a good lockon guy will hit you at least twice during a fight. If we consider he can also do well with his primary, it is check mate in pretty much all cases.

    That is why i want that during the turns (i fly past him and he past me), that the time for a lock on can be nullified by me by just flying into him to pass by for another time, and if needed, another time. The lockon time on the upgraded a2am is just too good. That is what makes it OP against a primary nose gunner with afterburners. There is no other load out in the air which can compete with this huge damage output of the a2am loadout.
  10. Jubikus

    A2AM are not anti everything they are anti air it may be all air but still only air they arnt killing infantry and tanks. Its a dominating loadout only if someone is going to the skys to take out people in the skys because majority of air uses a full blown A2G loadout. It would be like everyone using HE rounds to farm infantry and then complaining that AP rounds completely dominate the tank to tank fighting. If a tank is not using AP rounds it has to accept that it can be at a disadvantage when fighting another tank because that tank can be using a loadout specifically designed to kill tanks.
    • Up x 2
  11. fart11eleven

    Sure it is a dedicated a2a loadout. But i fight against considerably less skilled players, and they still are able to beat me. Even in the top range of ace pilots, this loadout is too dominant.

    Maybe the design decision should be rethought: cause this is the only weapon i don't agree with in the air. It is too dominant and should be nerfed. Less skilled pilots win with this load out against higher skilled pilots.
  12. Taemien

    This is what you said as your reason specifically:

    Lets change some words around.

    Top level ace tank driver meets another top level tank driver. Driver 1 has a Vanguard with AP + a secondary gunner with an Enforcer. Driver 2 has a Prowler with Racer 3 and using default HEAT and a Marauder up top. The Vanguard will always win.

    Should we nerf Enforcers?

    Think about what you just said. You're talking about a stock ESF vs a A2A equipped ESF. What do you think would happen?

    Here's what I think should happen. The one with afterburner pods should not try to fight an A2A ESF face to face and use their afterburners to get out of there. Afterburners are there to avoid combat. They're not a weapon.

    Rotaries are short range A2A weapons. Tomcats are medium range A2A weapons. You're going to get wrecked by them, their focus is anti-air. They can't do much damage to ground without dangerous exposure. And their tomcats can't do damage vs infantry or ground vehicles. That's the tradeoff they make.

    Want to know how to deal with Tomcats? Get in close and stay there orbiting them while using Coyotes. But first you'll need to ditch your honibru tendencies and fight with the tools the game gives you.

    Seriously though.. afterburner pods will outrun tomcats enough to get something to block them, or run them out of fuel if you're NC/TR with Racer. Unless you're close enough to make that rotary dangerous. Then the tomcat is the least of your worries.
  13. fart11eleven

    This is the key question. Imo it should be small numbers which need to be crunched if there is a problem. I understand the argument, but in a2a wiht a2am it is a little different than with everything else, and that is good as it is.

    The problem is that even lesser skilled pilots will win against and top level pilot with the a2am loadout. And the gap is imo still way too big. This weapon is simply OP.
  14. Jubikus

    I wouldnt mind it being turned into a different option as long as it maintained its Against air identity. Like if someone used this other weapon they would easily dominate all air not using it but have a skill element so that 2 people using this the better would win. The problem is how would you design such a weapon the things that are good against air have high velocity, a lock on feature, super high damage (AP tank shell), or a "close enough" feature like flak or cyote all of which i can see getting complaints or is the solution to simply not give air anti air so that A2A is just who is better at killing the other guy with the A2G stuff and not let anyone have a specialized loadout meant to kill other air.
  15. Silkensmooth

    Umm perhaps you dont know how to use them.

    I use them frequently. I have 82.686% accuracy with tomcat a2a missiles on my mosquito.

    They are an alpha strike that you can launch from 500 meters that never misses unless your opponent flies behind something or flares. As you can see from my accuracy that doesnt often happen. Of course my accuracy is lowered by the fact that i use my nosegun between reloads and often kill enemy planes while a missile is on its way. Sometimes other people kill the plane while the missile is on its way.

    They can be used during dogfights if you dont try to use them as a primary. Get the other guy into hover mode by making him think you are going to duel and then you have 100% accurate weapon vs his nosegun which is probly around 25% accuracy. You can make that lower by using ascend and descend and rolling while you are locking, which is easy if you are good.

    I have 10 days with my needler vs 7 hours with a2a missiles, yet the weapon with which i have many many more hours with i have only achieved 26.443% accuracy. Compared with 82.686% accuracy with a2a missiles after only 7 hours.

    I have also many thousands of kills with the noseguns of the other ESF and many many DAYS using them.

    Still with all that practice i cant even come close to the level of accuracy i can achieve with a2a missiles. And the mosquito is the third plane i flew in. 15 days in reaver and 24 days in scythe and almost all of that time spent with noseguns and my accuracy is only 26%.

    What all this means is that someone who learns to fly decently can have much higher accuracy with a weapon that requires no practice than you can ever hope to achieve with a nosegun. So then that means that a pilot can easily be killed by a pilot of much lower skill.

    What this does is make the air game disposable.

    If i can spend 50 or 60 days practicing with a weapon only to be destroyed by someone who has practiced for 1/100 that time, then what is the point of practicing? What replay value does that offer? Don't people continue to play a game because it challenges them?

    I dont think i would want to play if i didnt feel like i was getting better. When people use a2a missiles on you it gives you the feeling that flying is pointless because there is nothing you can practice to avoid dying to lock ons. You can practice evading nosegun fire, but there is nothing you can do short of charging that will save you from a2a missiles and that is a dangerous and often ineffective strategy against a good pilot.

    People think that so-called skyknights just cant stand dying and only want to hover duel. That is not the case. Though most are gone what people want is not some elitist gameplay, but a joyous fun tactical game that flying was back when locks were not good. Air battles that lasted minutes instead of seconds.

    Umm so anyway nerf all lock ons please.
    • Up x 2
  16. Taemien


    No one is arguing the strength of a A2A loadout vs a non-A2A loadout.

    What I'm arguing is this is an intended feature. And you're trying to call for a balance change around a 1v1 encounter in a MMO. That's also IMO incorrect to do.

    Here's how I see it working:

    You have A2A, A2G, and some mixture of the two. Each has their place. If you're sole intent is to solo hunt other aircraft. Use the A2A loadout. If your intent is to group vs Air, A2A will still serve you well. If you're running in a group that needs to deal with both, use what you want, even a mixture will work and do well. Just so long as the weapons are mixed as the threats you will face.

    Too often people run ESFs... see alot of duels happen and think that's the main way to play them. Its not. You can.. and can even do well, but you have to specialize in A2A. That's by design.

    Mass A2A works too against air. Until a crafty platoon leader baits you into a trap Gal loaded with Engies and Burster MAXes with a few walker Sundies below. That's always fun to do, and usually gets a forum post about griefing.
  17. LodeTria


    If you do that, and their isn't loads of cover around, the funny bug where you can fire multiple missiles on the same lock happens. An infantry equivalent would be launching your lock-on launcher, reloading and immediately firing and it chases your opponent still, without having to re-lock.

    Running is the worst thing you can do to A2A missiles, you either break LoS which difficulties varies on multiple factors, rush them down and start the fight with 30% less HP, or they get intercepted by other aircraft. If you have flares, you have 5 seconds to find where this enemy ESF is and decide on what to do, before the locks start again.
  18. Reclaimer77

    Why exactly are Skyknights all special snowflakes that always cry about their little circle-jerk game being ruined by this or that?

    You have like maybe ONE counter in the whole game....nobody else can say that. Just shut up and deal.
    • Up x 3
  19. Trebb

    Aircraft are annoying in small-medium fights.

    They're useless in anything bigger, except for super-quick strafe runs. But be prepared to spend 30 seconds repairing for every 5 seconds of combat lol.
  20. Imp C Bravo

    Any and all lockon weapons are ridiculous in large numbers.

    However -- remember that ALL the noseguns on the ESFs have higher DPS than the lockon. Theoretically 1v1 you should win with a nosegun. I guess the problem is the lockon user has a MASSIVE margin of error while the nosegun user has almost no margin of error yet the performance of the two weapons are almost identical.

    I'm not a fan of lockons by any means -- but that is what seems to be the case.