Auto Scout Rifles, underpowered for 2+ years, NO MORE!

(Note, previous version of this thread was locked, no reason was given. I contacted 4 people from DGC and only one responded to me over a week and just told me to contact someone else, still no reply. Therefore I must assume it was a bot that locked my thread likely due to some alt-code symbols in the title. Thus the re-post of this magnificent thread.)

JUSTIFICATIONS

This line of weapons for the infiltrator class has been neglected and ignored since their birthing into the game, and I'm almost certain its conception was an accident. SOE screwed up and gave birth to this "special" weapon and has chosen to shun it instead of giving it the care it has desperately needs. I wont stand by any longer! I wont let the Automatic Scout Rifles (ASRs) be ignored anymore! I have all the scout rifles well over auraxed FYI.

Just as an example to prove to you how far from reality SOE (DGE) has been with this weapon, I need but say one statement.
ASRs used to have only 20 shots... and a longer reload!



Yup folks, it's true.

Now, if you have the audacity to come in here and argue against the fact that this line of weapons is severely underpowered, perhaps a review of the situation will dissuade you from acting like a moron.
First, here are the current stats for everyone to refer to.
http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/AF-18_Stalker


ISSUES

The issues are...
-Relatively low DPS because of relatively low RPM.
-Bad hipfire CoF.
-Bad mag size of only 24.
-Bad velocity.
-Slightly bad ADS moving CoF.
-Kinda bad horizontal recoil.
-No HVA, SPA, or ADV-FG to help with the various issues.
-Soas 20 has the ugly standard TR base model.
-ADS movement speed multiplier is only the standard 50%.

The only decent part is that the vertical recoil is 3.0, which is "OK" for 652 RPM.

As they stand, these weapons are currently THE WORST automatic weapons in the game and that is a statistical fact. They are also arguably the worst in use. The fact that infiltrators can cloak with them is the only arguing point on that, as it makes them somewhat usable.

Basically these weapons are so bad they force you to play from the sidelines and shadows. However, you can't go to far away because these guns don't have the velocity, RPM, damage, or enough accuracy to be competent at longer ranges. They suck at close range. Medium range is the ideal spot, however Some SMGs are arguably better at this medium range while remaining excellent up close. The ASRs have no niche because there are several other weapons with niches that effectively overlap or overshadow these weapons while having many other clear advantages! Plus, with only 24 shots @143 you'll have to aim incredibly well and land most of your shots on isolated targets or else you're almost guaranteed to die.

To review...
Fact, these weapons literally (the literal literally) suck.
(compared to ALL other automatic weapons, and they have no real niche.)
That's the fact, that's the definitive fact!
PLUS, they've been this way and even worse for 2+ years! SINCE THEY WERE MADE!
SOE (DGC) has purposefully ignored and neglected them.


A BUFF IS AND HAS BEEN REQUIRED!

Required buffs...Lets go all the way this time!

-Add at least 1 more shot to total 25. (Because 25 is a better than 24...) Or how bout 26 or 28 huh? MOAR!
-Change damage profile to a NEW mid tier of 155@10 to 135@65. This requires the same amount of bullets to kill (7&8) and has the same effective TTK, however it is more reliable and has more total damage. Bloom remains the same!

-Change horizontal recoil from 0.2/0.225 to 0.201/0.201, add the option for the advanced forward grip.
-Crouch move CoF to 0.15 from 0.2, walk move CoF to 0.25 from 0.3.
-Vertical recoil to 2.8 from 3.0, first shot recoil multiplier to 1.4 from 1.5, a small change to bring it a little more in line with other weapons shooting at 652 RPM, though not quite as good respecting the damage changes.
-Flat velocity buff to 560.
-HVA ammo slot option.
-0.75 ADS move speed. Let's think about this, the gun is pretty much a carbine frame and its only got a 25ish shot magazine... Plus youWILL be using this primarily on the move.
-A TUN of people use the suppressor with these guns, make it a solid and desirable option for these weapons by modifying the Suppressor attachment to only reduce velocity by 20% as opposed to 40%. This would also help establish this weapon's niche.


WHY SO MUCH BUFF!?

Because this weapon sucks and really needs all of it. It will be perfectly balanced because the weapon still only has 25 shots, but now it will have a little more damage and accuracy to make those count! The new damage tier is not only unique but very practical for this sort of weapon as well! Again, takes the same amount of bullets to kill but is a wee bit more reliable. This weapon would be PERFECT for the higher skill player and those who are trying to become better shots! Think about it, the challenge would still be pretty high but the reward would be just enough now to justify using these guns. Furthermore, these changes PUSH this gun into a REAL niche! Think about it! It would be a solid medium range weapon that can ideally be suppressed constantly. It WILL be suppressed consistently by most anyone using it, I assure you. This would become a SERIOUSLY unique weapon ideal for a refurbished breed of mid range Infiltrators!
Does it need every buff I listed for this? YES! Will it be to much? NO! Despite all these improvements, this gun is still statistically inferior by a solid amount to many/most automatic weapons, the difference is that now, with some skill, the rewards justify the means and it's a unique weapon with a solid unique niche on a unique class.


IT NEEDS ALL OF THE SUGGESTED BUFFS! DO NOT SETTLE FOR LESS! I am here to MAKE SURE that SOE (DGC) delivers! please comment, like, and tweet Mister Higbeh plus anyone else related to balance with a link and support for this post. Also help me keep this thread's blood pumping until its mission statement is met in exactness or better.


TLRD
Auto Scout Riles SUCK (statistical fact) and need serious buffs.

THANKS!
~CapEnTrade

I already liked it 2 years ago before it got buffed, so I don't know... But yeah sure, I'll take whatever buffs you can get it
Though it's more likely that they'll just whip up some new auto scouts for us to buy, instead of buffing the old ones.

Also, tweeting Higby might prove pretty pointless at this stage.

Well it is pretty underpowered still, regardless of what shinny new ASR they may put out.
(NS ASR!???)

As an avid user of these guns, I think they are in a great place. They must be inferior to other auto rifles stat wise due to the class they are on or they would be op. As they are they make perfect mid-range ambush weapons and are adequate for both shorter and longer engagements.

Theyre inferior to SMGs in almost every conceivable way.

First off a more VS specific example, the ASRs are the equivalent of a bad eridani, our T1 SMG.

To get the one good thing out of the way, they have more range damage. However its recoil patterns, small mag size, and high ROF make it not worth using at the ranges it would shine compared to most other weapons (at about 45-60 meters)

To go onto the more gritty stuff they share the exact same stats, exceptions being Eridani having a higher ROF, larger clip size, vastly more accurate compared to the ASRs in hipfire, and the same aim accuracy numbers when moving.

Comparing to the PDW, the PDW, the in my opinion worst smg in the game because of its low rof and low damage model, has better stats than it due to: While lower max damage, a higher DPS than the ASRs at 1563 compared to the scout rifles 1553. It has the same damage dropoff numbers too, or close enough to them to be considered ASRs with more ammo, more hip accuracy, better DPS, SPA, and extended mags.

ASRs are honestly a joke and all the work i did to auraxium mine was a trial in dedication.

Also i cant help myself, because of your name, heres Lipps Inc.

i must agree asrs are joke. i have 500 kills on my stalker and honestly i dont think to continue using it. blitz, cyclone and pdw are better than stalker in all situations...

Semi Auto with 6x and laser always.
Yeah, it's effectively a worse SPR, yeah, still gonna use it for inf ARX.

Scout rifles not only used to have only 20 rounds in a mag, they also had lower minimum damage of 112, essentially making them a bad carbine. At least now they're bad ARs.

In real life, there's no such thing as a fully-automatic scout rifle. Typical scout rifle is a very light, short-barreled bolt-action rifle:

There are some semi-automatic scout rifles, but they're sort of posers among real scout rifles. However, light weight and short barrel are among the defining characteristics of the scout rifle, which technically makes it a carbine.

So it would make sense for ASRs to be brought in closer with carbines: tone down minimum damage, increase hip fire accuracy.

But PS2 ASR don't look anything like carbines, they look like full-sized rifles with barrels longer than that of ARs. So maybe ASRs should be made more like ARs: reduce horizontal recoil to 0.2/0.2, increase bullet velocity, increase minimum damage range.

Overall, I can understand the hesitation of developers to give an effective and versatile automatic weapon to a cloaker class, same reason why Light Assault don't have them.

ASR aren't so bad, but I agree that they might deserve some buffs. However, the changes should be based on devs' intentions for this weapon class. For now it performs okay as a precision weapon for taking out lone targets at medium range. The problem with it is that it's nearly outclassed by NS-7 PDW at that range. So at the very least, ASRs deserve a decrease in horizontal recoil to 0.2/0.2

As i said in the previous locked topic, i don't think the comparison with the Eridani makes much sense. If any is to be made, the base for comparison should be the NS-7 due to the dps proximity (1556dps vs 1562dps), default damage per mag (3432 and 3750) and relative ease to handle.

Instead of the bad ARs they are right now, i'd like them mostly with a much tighter CoF in ads, something akin or only slightly worse than burst guns in that aspect. Also as suggested by CapEnTrade, a 10~12% better velocity (a little less for Artemis), plus a marked preference for suppressors with the -20% to velocity he proposes rather than the current -40%.

The rest seems mostly fine to me as it is, i'm pretty sure what i propose would make them good enough, definitely something more than a bad 652/143 carbine or a sub-par smg.

Perhaps re-do the sound effects -suppressed or not- for SOAS but mostly Stalker (super loud), but that would also imply "nerfing" the sound of both NC smgs to actually make the Stalker an interesting option in comparison. Although that affects more than infiltrators, which is kinda dicey.

currently i use the artemis with 2x reflex, grip and suppressor when playing my vanu infi. i simply see it as a challenge. when i kill someone with it, i really deserved the kill. and i really like the sound of the suppressed artemis - is any suppressed weapon quieter ?

with my tr infi i use the soas - unsuppressed. and i really like the sound of it as well - feels like shooting a BIIIIIG gun

I just picked up the AF-18 again after buying it and shelving it months ago, and I'm actually finding it reasonably pleasant to use. That low FSM makes it pretty easy to chain headshots at medium range. I do wish the horizontal recoil were lower and the velocity were higher.

For the record, I'm using it with 3.4x scope, foregrip, and compensator.

I have auraxiumed almost every SMG in this game and I completely disagree. Whenever I grind the armor for a toon the scout rifle directive is the first I complete because of these. But whatevs I'm fine with all you ASR haters out there. Your bad press will keep these gems my little secret.

x4 myself. I wont argue it's pleasant to use as I myself find my ol SOAS-20 to be pleasant to use at times. This is probably because it's a nice change in weaponry for infiltrator use now and then. However it quite under-preforms, I often feel I'd do much better with an SMG or semi auto. That is why we are here, to bring this weapon up to its rightful potential! The proposed changeds will make it very unique, keep it up to its potential, give it a real niche, and it will still comparatively be "one of the worst" automatic guns in the game, however rewarding enough to those who can use it's improved accuracy to make it well worth it.

You have to have earned every kill!
Yup, the Artemis is pretty dang quiet!

A lot (LOT) of people love to suppress these weapons, but it makes them so much harder to use. For this specifically I included the velocity buff and suppressor adjustments. This would go even further and really help establish this weapon's niche.

Well the point of that comparison is that the Eridani is superior up close and can effectively touch most of the range capability of the VS ASR (Artimis). So they overlap a fair bit, but due to other properties of the Eridani one would likely prefer it hands down in most every situation.

I have to agree with this unfortunately, though I continue to use mine for the aim practice and challenge.

A great point. Many SMGs will tend to preform better in a lot of overlapping situations and this is one of the main issues with this gun. This is not always true however as the ASRs will tend to be better at the longer ranges in the hands of a capable user, just not near as much as any other auto weapon, yet another issue.

Auto Scouts have 1 advantage - They are cheap...But that's about it.

None better to the best of my current knowledge. The best muffled sounds i found (looking for it on all infiltrator primaries) after it were, as i stated above, the Blitz and Cyclone.

CapEnTrade: true about the range difference, especially with suppressor. But you can hear VS smgs from half a map away, and hmmm...about 45% with the suppressor! Not much to gain there, whereas the Artemis is great in that aspect.

The counter argument to this would be: "what about SMGs?" I have a feeling that was the original concept when they were weak and short on ammo and all around terrible, or at least the one I have was back in the day. If my memory serves me it only had 18 rounds per mag and did less damage per round it was pretty bad. Battle rifles and semi-auto sniper rifles are pretty similar with the exception that the battle rifles tend to be weaker. This would be another argument toward that concept. So really the reason why they are so weak by comparison is more likely that they want infiltrators to be proficient at long or close range only via stealth. The only issue being that at close range due to the current state of stealth it's a bit silly at times considering you have lower health as an infiltrator and cloak shows easily at medium ranges now.

Well if you love them so much, i cannot sway you although the PDW is basically going to do the same thing with more ammo and cqc ability.

ASRs are your phaseshift.

I recently finished the infiltrator directive, using the SOAS-20 for the scout rifle part. I already had a few hundred soas kills from back when they were first introduced, so it made the directive less painful. The more I used the SOAS, the more I got used to it. But still, I can't count the number of times I died because I ran out of ammo. I'm TR muthafukkas! Give me my dakka! Seriously though, if the ASRs better followed the empire traits, they would be more interesting. Now I'm back to the PDW and while I do miss the extra range from the SOAS, I am much more effective in general.

The problems with the ASRs all come from their bastard history. In beta, SOE tried giving infiltrators the shotgun. Problem is, at the time, shotguns were *CRAZY* overpowered. You could easily clear a room 5 on 1. When an inf could cloak into a room and THEN clear it 5 on 1, the whining was massive. They eventually fixed the shotguns, but they also took them away from infs. So...what do you give an inf who wants something besides a sniper rifle? SMG wasn't invented yet. Can't give them a carbine...that is too good (SOE's logic, not mine). Tada!!! Scout Rifles! A crappy bastard weapon meant to soak up more SC from desperate infiltrators with no better option.

Give the ASR 30 rounds and their use rate would go way up.

Bump.

Wow you really are a habitual cry baby aren't you

These weapons are more than fine, some of the longest killstreaks I've been on have been with the stalker (suppressed!) and the fact I shred heavies so quickly on the jump (assuming my aim on the head is on point) ..well anything above this would certainly be overpowered on a stealth/ambush class, even more so in the heat of battle.

They fill their role excellently. I can only assume you just aren't that good at aiming.