[Suggestion] Remove K/D

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by SpartanPsycho, Nov 26, 2014.

  1. cykael

    If it won't do anything there's no reason to remove it. Why would you put any work into something that doesn't need changing and won't have any effect? Talk about fail argument, lol.
  2. McToast

    Moin
    There also is no reason to remove it.

    K/D is one of the stats that tells you how successful you are at the game. People who want it removed usually are people who aren't really successful at this game and don't want others to see this. I can understand that. They make up some stuff about "playing the objective" and "teamwork" as if you'd have to suck to be an objective-doing teamplayer.
    Now a good K/D doesn't necessarily indicate superior skill, but a bad K/D does show a certain lack of skill, be it basic shooter skill or tactical skill.

    I also want to add that to me the objective of the game IS K/D and it's surrounding stats. I don't care about silly basecaptures that don't mean anything at all in this game. I primarily play this game to virtual kill other players and K/D - along other stats - shows me how good I am at doing that. The fighting over bases is just to give us a reason and some background to fight, the basecap itself is meaningless to me.
  3. Unsp0kn


    But there are others who play XP sponges like Medic and focus more on their score rather than kills and then there are ESF pilots that farm infantry and will always have a high KDR. I feel like there are too many different ways to play this game that affect someone's scoring for it to really matter that much, unless you're comparing to other players who play the same way you do. If this game were strictly infantry FPS, then sure, it would hold a lot more weight.
    • Up x 1
  4. Iridar51

    One of the reasons base captures don't mean anything is because half of the players fights for K/D, like you do.

    People have said this to me, and I know how annoying this sounds, but if only thing you're looking for is to farm stats and see yourself improve, then PS2 perhaps is the wrong game for you. There are many other games with much better balance for that, without thousands of factors offsetting the "real skill K/D", though existence of such a thing is questionable.

    K/D doesn't really "tell" tell you how good you are at the game. These two things have some correlation, but considering how many things can pollute the "real skill K/D", current PS2 K/D doesn't mean that much, only for yourself, because only you know how much time do you spend padding your own K/D.

    It's the same thing as with average weapon accuracy:


    Only you as a player can now how much time do you spend on shooting at ESFs or praying and spraying.

    Yeah, in general, it's better to have high accuracy and high K/D. But neither of these two stats can be conclusively used for some purpose. We can't predict that "player X has Y accuracy hence he will hit with Z bullets", and neither can we predict that "player X's K/D is higher than player Y's, which means he has higher skill".

    If stats can't be used to predict anything, there's no reason to make them publicly available at the very least.
    Your own stats matter to you, that's how it should be. "Today my K/D is higher than yesterday, hence I'm improving" mentality is fine. "I must have at least 3 K/D or I'm a no skill nobody" is wrong mentality, but people enforce it on themselves and on each other. That's why K/D should be at the very least hidden, or preferably removed at all.
    • Up x 2
  5. Saool

    So that's most of the player base then. Epeening much?
    • Up x 2
  6. Yuukikun

    Because she's an idiot. Everyone started with a 0.1 K/D. If she gives up at the first sign of challenge, it's called being a coward, not caring about her k/d.
  7. McToast

    Moin
    Of course there are differences in K/D (and other stats) between different classes and playstyles. A Combat Medic won't get as high a K/D as a MAX or tanker with the "same" skill. And as a support class your K/D is only important when you actually also fulfil your support role. A medic who doesn't use his heal- and rezztool could just go play HA and be more effective. What I meant was that there are certain players who excuse their bad stats with the argument that they are "teamplayers". I can play medic and still keep up a 2+ K/D while keeping the guys around me alive. In fact these superior skills often give me the chance to kill the enemy and revive my team instead of getting killed and sent back to the spawntube along my team.
    And this can be carried over to other stats as well. Of course I won't get as many KPM in smaller battles than in big multiplatoon fights. And I won't get as much SPM while only doing A2A duty in my ESF compared to A2G. Idling in the warpgate reduces my KPM and SPM and shooting in the air to give an eng a bit resupply XP will reduce my weapon accuracy.

    K/D by itself alone is meaningless. It's only an important stat when coupled with the other stats, including weapon and class statistics.

    If they'd remove K/D completly I would still play this game to shoot other players, not capturing territory that doesn't have any real meaning anyway.

    That's basically what I said. I've never met a really good player with a K/D below 1, but I've met some with a K/D of 1+ who just weren't very good at this game. K/D is just one of the stats and has to be seen in the wider context.

    I don't believe that removing the K/D tracking would improve the game. Improving the game would improve the game, not removing a single stat. Give me a reason to capture a base other than the fighting itself and it WILL devalue K/D. If you limit ghostcapping at the same time, basecaptures/defends may rise in relevance as a stat.
    • Up x 1
  8. MarkAntony

    You are just stating your opinion as fact without even making an argument. How would the removal of K/D make the game more enjoyable? You say it does without mentioning why or how. Do people not want to play because their K/D is bad? Do they feel ashamed? If they do then is that really a problem with the stat or a self esteem issue with the player?
    Make an actual argument instead of repeating your opinion ad nauseam and treating it as an irrefutable fact.

    And how do you come to the conclusion that I can either have better Planetside or play it like Battlefield that failed because I care about stats? Is there any actual reason behind this statement. Sounds like a false dichotomy to me.

    PS: Sorry for using all that Logical Fallacy stuff. I have spent to much time on TVTropes reading through stuff like that.
    And btw I am not saying that your statements aren't true. I am simply saying that you aren't making any logical arguments (actually any arguments at all) as to why they are true.

    I think you are mistaking the situation here. KD is here. You are asking for it to be removed. You are asking for something ot be changed. How about you come up with a reason for removing K/D backed by a logical argument?
    Or i could just throw it back in your face and say:" If removing it won't change anything then there is no reason to remove it. Fail argument". But that would be meaningless.
  9. Person7man

    Considering stats mostly come from third party websites like DA or Planetside Universe, removing KD won't actually "remove kd." Algorithms tracking kills/deaths are easy to make and very helpful to the player base and therefore tons of websites relating to PS2 utilize them. Besides, people who want to remove KD are usually embarassed by their own. If you think it doesn't matter, stop crying about it and work on SPM or KPM instead of whining about a stat that has been the basis of the FPS genre since doom and quake.
  10. Iridar51

    I was lazy to say things I already said many times. But if you insist, here are a few of my older posts, relevant to this topic, in no particular order.







    ---


    Because tracking stats is one of the reasons PS2 plays like a team death match, and the battles don't mean anything, no specific goal at the end - run in, shoot some baddies, have fun. But then what was the point of creating a huge open world with persistent base captures if they don't mean anything? What was the point of creating clearly imbalanced in 1 v 1 situations HA and MAX and vehicles? If you try to play PS2 like a team deathmatch, it plays like a badly balanced Battlefield clone on a huge map.
    PS2 should not and can not become a game like battlefield, with matchmaking and instanced combat. Hence, it should become an objective based team game, but stats need to be removed / hidden before this can happen.

    • Up x 2
  11. Posse

    The main drive behind my actions is to have the most fun, my fun is directly correlated with how many kills I'm getting in a specific period of time, since KDR and KPM are correlated (the less time I spend dead the more time I have to kill people in the middle of a fight), yeah, that's where the fun is for people that just are here to get kills.

    Who actually cares about the K/D of someone else anyway? The only thing I use KDR (together with KPM) for is to see if I'm improving or not, the only way I'd care about someone else's KDR is if they app to DA, so I can know if I can trust the guy to cover me or not.
  12. Iridar51

    Well how about some participants of this thread? They're saying "Lol you scrubs only want K/D removed because you have low K/D yourselves". In fact, it's a common attitude here: "your K/D is low hence everything you say is wrong".

    Some of the outfits use K/D in a decision whether to accept someone in their ranks or not.

    It's not that people genuinely care about K/D of other people, but they will use it against them. In fact, some DA members used my - at that time - 1.6 K/D as a reason to dismiss my opinion in a similar thread 2+ years ago, when I said that K/D is a meaningless stat.

    Fear of your K/D being used against you is the reason a lot of people feel the need to pad their K/D. Yeah, you, me, and many other enlightened players will know to use K/D only as a measure of own progress.

    But less smart masses - and let's be candid here, most of the people here are not at all that smart - will use K/D as a dick measuring tool "Everyone with K/D lower than me is a noob, everyone with K/D better than me is hacker / no life tryhard", and they will pad their K/D by farming infantry with vehicles and MAXes and snipers and being a spawnroom warrior, effectively detracting from everyone else's gaming experience.

    Yes, that behaviour is stupid. So are most players. Measures need to be taken for the game to become enjoyable to the larger portion of the playerbase.

    That's the main reason K/D should only be available to the player himself. At least he'll feel more safe from the judgement.
    • Up x 3
  13. Gazatron

    I doubt this will be read so far into the comments but I'll say it anyway.

    I reject the notion that it is BS for outfits to set a KD requirement. I see your argument as to why but here it is from the perspective of someone who is in such an outfit. I am from INI Elite (my user name here is not my character name) and we set a KD requirement for which class u consider your main or which you feel u are best at. When applications are made we check stats using das anfall as it is much more accurate. For those who also look at DA you will know why. For those who don't, it basically gives a more detailed break down including true KD which is your KD without revives.

    KD does show the quality of player via DA but their accuracy is shown too. You will also note that the good outfits such as DA and AC can spot good players when they are playing with them by watching their positioning, how they approach doorways, react to enemy crashes etc even if they had a terrible KD (which they wouldn't anyway). INI also put players on trial periods because as some know we are an infantry heavy outfit. When playing with applicants we see how they fit in the community and watch how they play. Good players can hold good KD without trying because they know the fights they have at least a chance of making a difference in, instead of being farmed by low skilled overtopping players that the best infantry player in this game couldn't beat because...numbers.

    Take home: don't judge outfits for KD requirements because they are like having a degree. You get an interview but it doesn't gurantee u the job.
  14. Gazatron

    I doubt this will be read so far into the comments but I'll say it anyway.

    I reject the notion that it is BS for outfits to set a KD requirement. I see your argument as to why but here it is from the perspective of someone who is in such an outfit. I am from INI Elite (my user name here is not my character name) and we set a KD requirement for which class u consider your main or which you feel u are best at. When applications are made we check stats using das anfall as it is much more accurate. For those who also look at DA you will know why. For those who don't, it basically gives a more detailed break down including true KD which is your KD without revives.

    KD does show the quality of player via DA but their accuracy is shown too. You will also note that the good outfits such as DA and AC can spot good players when they are playing with them by watching their positioning, how they approach doorways, react to enemy crashes etc even if they had a terrible KD (which they wouldn't anyway). INI also put players on trial periods because as some know we are an infantry heavy outfit. When playing with applicants we see how they fit in the community and watch how they play. Good players can hold good KD without trying because they know the fights they have at least a chance of making a difference in, instead of being farmed by low skilled overtopping players that the best infantry player in this game couldn't beat because...numbers.

    Take home: don't judge outfits for KD requirements because they are like having a degree. You get an interview but it doesn't gurantee u the job.
  15. lllWAVElll

    I personally don’t think the Developers should remove KDR from the game, as I know that many players enjoy having access to it in game, and I really don’t want to take that fun away from them. As this game (just like any game) is all about having fun, and those that are the most successful/best/skilled at this game, are the ones that can figure out what way is the most fun way of playing this game for them. This is what makes this game so great, as there are so many options and ways to play this game. And that the only irrefutable correct way to play this it is whatever way that allows you to enjoy playing it. In short, if you are having fun then that means you are winning... nothing else matters. :)

    Although there are legitimate reasons to remove the KDR stats IF the Developers really wanted to influence the style of gameplay. As it’s evident from this forum that many people that play this game care a lot about showing off their stats, which inevitably leads to stat padding. But I think instead of removing stats, the Developers should come up with some more ways to give more meaning and emphasis on capturing territories instead.


    KDR is one of the ways that tell YOU how successful YOU are at your particular way of playing this game. As you have stated that your only objective in this game is to get a high KDR, and that’s where in game stats are very useful for you, as your KDR stat of 4 is arguably very average at best if not below average for someone with your particular play style, which should be at least a KDR of 10 if you were any good at it. A very quick glance at your stats shows us that you spend a lot of your time Sniping or in a Vehicle, mostly as an ESF or Liberator where you play as a Light Assault so that you can bail and redeploy to help you stat pad. I personally have no problem with this, and as long as you are having fun then that’s all good. But it’s when people like you, say that other people are bad players just because of their KDR stat because they just don’t play like you, is just not right. :confused:

    There are many ways to stat pad and ensure a player has a high KDR in this game, hell... I can’t think of any other game that makes it so damn easy to get a high KDR if you really wanted to have a high one. By using crutches like the 1) Light Assault bail & redeploy when your Aircraft is nearly destroyed, 2) Spending most of your time in a vehicle, 3) Sniping, 4) using a MAX, 5) Heavy Assault Shield, 6) Nade spamming, 7) Being in an organised Squad, 8) Spawn camping, 9) Wall Humping at a bottle neck, 10) Choosing not to play a support roll, and so on and so on.....

    There really is no reason not to have a KDR of over 9000! for those of you that so wished, as you could just play the whole game as a spawn room warrior if you really wanted to.... :eek:


    TL;DR: Having fun is the only correct way to play this game. And a player’s KDR for determining their skill is useless, without first knowing the overall context on the way that individual player is choosing to play this game. :rolleyes:
  16. Posse

    Together with a ton of other metrics, what's the problem with that? Believe me that, at least in DA, we can spot quite well who has a good KD because he's good and who has a good KD because he pads it.

    Well, yeah, when you see that most people that want KD removed have a bad KD, you can't help but suspect.

    That's assuming a majority of the people post in the forums, which is definitely false.
    • Up x 1
  17. FBVanu

    Every week there is one of these. Reposing this here since many forumsiders appear not to know about it.

    Here is the answer that has been around for over a yea now:

    We asked SOE so many times to implement the ADR along with the KDR..

    here is he original thread on Achievement Death Ratio: https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/substitute-kdr-with-adr.153098/ Just read the first post in this link and you will see the light... ;)


    The achievement is worth far more than the kill, but BOTH numbers could be displayed in the stats. SOE's servers already have all of this info, it should be easy to create. If players don't want their KDR.. maybe give an option not to display it..(?)

    There is also the Achievement page in our Player's site, been there since inception, and NOTHING has ever been done with it. IMHO, one of the issues is the fact that PS2 rewards kills.. .the more kills the higher the reward.. but it is solely based on player kills. Instead, it could be based on specific kills, not based on the weapon used, but based on the target destroyed. I.E.: blow up 10 Galaxies.. get your ribbon.. blow up 10 MBTS.. get your ribbon.. Don't achieve auraxium with a weapon, achieve "Master Tank Killer" with an auraxium for blowing up tanks, or "Sunderer Menace" .. the same should be achievable for "Point Master", captured 1,000 capture points, get your auraxium for that..
    All those are achievements that are currently not tracked, ergo, they do not matter in the current state of the game. The only stat is the KDR.. the others can be added easily.

    That would change some perception and ego taunting of "I'm great because my KDR is x..." to "Yeah, dude, but you never destroyed any decent number of Sunderers... therefor I'm better than you..." It will no longer be about how long you live, but rather how much you achieve in the game.. which would tie in with the ADR and that could only be good for the game.

    Does this make any sense to anybody else?
    • Up x 1
  18. hawken is better

    I honestly would like to see k/d removed. In my opinion, it takes away from the "comradery" aspect of a war game and turns everyone (well, most players) into individuals that care more about themselves than the empire as a whole.
    • Up x 3
  19. Iridar51

    Maybe so, but this still enforces the mentality of K/D importance. 99% of players will never be in DA-level [drama] outfit. But they will still say to each other "Duh you can't even get into DA if your K/D is below 99999999, that stat gotta be important".

    Just for the sake of argument, let's say this is true. Baddies don't like their low K/D, and they don't want to be judged harshly because of it. So? In what way does this add to reasons to keep the stats?

    Game should be enjoyable to all kinds of players, not just the skilled ones. If bad stats cause frustration in players, and eventually they quit, the game will just lose it's lifeblood. Like it was doing for past two years. If removing the stats will make life easier for the big part of the playerbase, why not do it?

    Forum was just an example. Nothing changes in the game either. People - especially "simple" kind - love to generalize and place labels. Human brain works in a way that requires to create a judgement about someone very quickly, to assess his level and compare to own. In the absence of better info, he will use K/D. The first thing someone will ask when he wants to make a judgement about someone is "what's your K/D?".

    The comparison is likely to be completely pointless, but there's no workaround, that's just how human mind works. K/D is most used, most referred stat, and people use to make judgements, which hurts the capture meta and makes the game a bad TDM it is.

    It's fine to use stats to pass judgement, just not the stat getting which can easily go against the teamwork spirit of the game.
    • Up x 3
  20. cykael

    This is probably the dumbest post I've ever read on this forum. LoL community is often cited as one of the most "toxic" as popularized by the dev themselves to the point where literally everyone reports everyone in a game, people flame others over the most tiny mistakes and act as complete ***** towards each other at every level of play. HoN being "toxic" has nothing to do with stats, it's the entire genre that has been designed the way to **** on players that are doing already bad.

    If you're gonna quote some ******** post at least do some research or play the ******* games.
    • Up x 1