VS and the religious element

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Fellgnome, Nov 10, 2014.

  1. Badname707

    Except where already pointed out, namely the limitations of subjective experience.

    What is impossible is impossible. What happens is necessarily possible. If someone snapped their fingers and produced a spark, whether or not it was possible to understand, the event would have to be considered a fact, or that both observers are sharing the same delusion.

    Clarke's third law, baybayyyy
  2. Ronin Oni

    Science is real. Magic is not. They are mutually exclusive by definition.

    Magic is just a term for the ignorant. Everything is Science. Magic is scientifically impossible.
  3. Ronin Oni

    Still science.

    I may not KNOW the science, but I can recognize it as science and technology and trickery rather than making some ignorant baseless assumption that it's "Magic".
  4. Badname707

    And what have I said that disagrees with any of this? And how does this contradict a faction of scientists worshiping a race of alien beings far beyond understanding?
  5. Ronin Oni

    Worshipping anything for technological superiority is beyond comprehension....

    THAT'S why.

    It's JUST technology. Technology can be learned, adapted, and recreated. It can be taken in and owned and controlled by us.

    WHY WORSHIP OTHERS FOR WHAT WE ARE CAPABLE OF?
  6. Paragon Exile

    Currently, the United States is experimenting with railguns and coilguns for future use by infantry and small armored vehicles, probably within thirty years.

    Should the US begin equipping soldiers with prototype high-yield batteries and railguns?

    They have to be more expensive (not necessarily in terms of money) because of their origin. The Vanu weapons are reverse-engineered alien weapons, whose creators did not speak the same language (if they spoke at all), use the same body plan, evolve on the same planet or have the same psychology. Watch the movie "Contact" (or read the book) to see how difficult and expensive it would be for Humans to decipher something aliens take for granted (The 3-D encryption algorithm.) The emssage in the movie was sent by the aliens with the intent of letting humans read it. The Vanu scientists would have literally nothing to work with and would have a monumental task laid out ahead of them.

    This one thing means that Vanu weapons are more expensive. Completely ignoring the fact that plasma weapons and lasers can never be as energy efficient as ballistic weapons, which means the VS must have power generation and storage far in excess of the TR and NC.
  7. Fellgnome

    I'm TR. I am an (agnostic)atheist, but not militant, so there's that.

    It's completely true that many scientists throughout history believed in some crazy things, not trying to suggest scientists all= completely logical/materialist people. The difficulty here though is that it doesn't make a lot of sense for so many fairly modern scientists to hop on board to worshipping an extinct alien race relatively out of the blue.

    Which could make sense, if we were given more information. I just wish they would flesh the factional lore out more.

    The main reason I play TR/find the VS "distasteful" is the seemingly lunatic zealotry of the faction. While I can sympathize with the pursuit of higher evolution and resistance to stunted scientific progress, I find it harder to do so with doing so in such a reckless/fanatical way as the VS seem to.
  8. Badname707

    Unless it can't. Let's review the facts, as presented by the lore:

    1) Vanu exists, can, and does communicate with human beings, namely VS scientists, Vanu's chosen, you might say

    2) Vanu technology is generally far beyond human comprehension. After hundreds of years of research, this is still true

    3) The foremost scientist advocates Vanu and has a far better understanding of Vanu than anyone else

    4) The other factions want to limit the research and exploitation of Vanu technology

    5) To interact with Vanu technology, you are subject to fact number 1.

    So, to further your understanding of Vanu, you must accept Vanu into your consciousness. There's no way around it. How do you deny what is there? Why would you deny what is only beneficial for you and humankind as a whole?

    And there you have it, Vanu Sovereignty.
    • Up x 1
  9. KiakoLalene

    The quote never says that you immediately get on your knees. Let me break it down for you since you obviously don't understand: the quote is saying that a technology so advanced might as well be magic, because we can't explain how it works or create a theory for how, even if we know it isn't actually magic.
  10. Paragon Exile


    The alien known as Vanu only ever spoke to Briggs in a single vision that he couldn't even remember.
    • Up x 1
  11. Ronin Oni

    ^Yup

    More misinformation.

    Those TR and NC anti-VS leaflets sure have gotten around though.
  12. Fellgnome

    I can't believe they released the Prothean as day 1 DLC though.
  13. Paragon Exile

    I wasn't expecting such an intellectually-stimulating conversation today.

    Pleasantly surprised.
    • Up x 1
  14. Paragon Exile


    WHERE IS THE AIRLOCK SO I MAY THROW YOU OUT OF IT?

    COMMANDA'
  15. Whatupwidat


    "Worship" is no the word I would use to describe the VS. They never appear in any of the lore or sound-bites to view Vanu as a deity - nor even divine, just simply superior. And as I said, in a situation where a civil war was tearing the human populace apart, it is understandable to me why intelligent people who viewed themselves as being above that would find another way - and given these scientists and their followers had access to alien artifacts they might very well have focussed on those as a way of remedying the situation.

    Also let's bare in mind that the people fighting the war on Auraxis are not the original people from the wormhole - if my lore's right there was a period of nearly 200 years between their arrival in the Auraxis sector and the war breaking out, which is more than enough time for the message of what the Vanu are/were to be distorted as people asserted their will on what they wanted the movement to be.

    Again - just like any other religion/cult/movement/government. But that's the point about this war - NO SIDE is the "good guys".
  16. Ronin Oni

    Wrong.

    In fact, I hate the entire quote because it assumes ignorant response.

    If I see something I can't explain, then it's Science I don't yet know or understand.

    That's not Magic. "Magic" doesn't exist. Magic is a term for the ignorant to describe something they don't understand and without even recognition for their lack of understanding.

    Science is something anyone can learn. Science can be used by anyone. It may need to be adapted or used in a different way to be of use to humans who may have a different set of senses and controls than the aliens might...

    but it's all just science.

    It's ALWAYS science.

    I do not accept the terminology of the ignorant.
  17. ColonelChingles

    If those railguns work just as efficiently as anything anyone else is using, then sure. And based on my observations about the game, VS weapons are just as efficient as anything the NC or TR use, so why not?

    I mean the only other issue would be cost...

    That might be all true, but at the end of the day VS weapons have comparable cert/nanite costs with their NC and TR counterparts. Whatever challenges the VS scientists faced, they must have overcome them pretty easily.

    Take the VS's Proximity Mine. It obviously uses some kinda weird technology because you see all those electric sparks when it blows up, but it costs the same as any other anti-personnel mine. If it were truly more difficult to manufacture or produce, then it should have a higher associated nanite cost.

    Or consider the VS LMGs, which range anywhere from 100 to 1,000 certs. Certs are assumed to be awards given that show that a soldier is more experienced; as a soldier becomes more experienced they are given access to more things. It is reasonable to assume that expensive, rare, or difficult-to-make weapons would have a higher cert cost; this prevents inexperienced soldiers from running off with the best weapons. Now for the VS, the conventional NS-15 is actually one of the most expensive LMGs to grab, at 1,000 certs. In fact many of the VS alien options are actually less expensive than the conventional NS LMG. Again, this suggests that the challenges to the VS scientists were not really that significant.
  18. Badname707

    The lore states that Briggs was the first to communicate with the alien known as Vanu. There's also a two hundred year gap in the lore between that and the time period in which PS2 takes place. You might have to fill in some of the blanks.
  19. Badname707

    What you call magic and what others call magic is irrelevant. Only what can exist does exist.
  20. Ronin Oni

    Certs have no lore component whatsoever.

    NS15 is 1000 certs because it wasn't in the game at launch and ALL weapons introduced since launch are 1000 certs.