Biolabs are only fun for defenders.

I see zero problems with biolabs, except they are all the same inside and there are only 3 of them per continent.
Attacking / defendig is all fun, when attacking you have to go for the generator then guard it.

And I do not understand what kind of advantage does VS have in a biolab, except if they use coordinated Lasher squads - which I never see. In biolab fights NC has the upper hand with their scatmaxes.

I must admit i prefer being defender then attacker as its much easier to defend then attack. Sure you have multiple entry points and spawn rooms and such but at the same time it makes defending much easier as the points of entry are easier to identify and contain. But attacking and taking a biodome can be done with a lot more coordination and the initial rush is probably vital for success. get a foot hold on certain objectives will make life easier but its no guarantee of success as it gets bogged down into a stalemate and a good max rush finishes the task.

I can't think of any ways to improve a biodome other then a complete overhaul. Bear in mind it was redesigned for performance issues so there's that to consider as well.

Best bases in game, fun in def and attack. Long fight with many twists and turns is what other bases cant provide most of time.

It all depends.

Cheese Version :
- Attacking : Sundy @ Tele room @ the Base you own, stay in the safe room once in the Bio, profit. Set Turrets so others or you can have a clear view out of the windows with little risk. Defenders on platform? Liberator or ESF ASAP, XP to be had. Spam them to Hell. ESF RoadKill EVERYTHING on the platform. Fun(I guess).
- Defending : Find an area near a valuable asset like a Generator, position correctly(They should not see you immediately when entering or they will just run back). Profit. C4 above mentioned Sundy. Profit more. Don't camp the platform at all, find the proper angles to fire through the arch from further in the Bio. If they occupy the platform long enough, you can be sure your Libs will notice and come in. I'd say pull MBT but with C4 it's easier.

Bring Shot-Gun, RL primary, HA, MAX, lots of C4 and AI Mines, LA.

Non-Cheese Version :
- Attacking : Sundy @ Tele room @ the Base you own. Once in the Bio step out, split up and flip points first as a distraction, then go for the Generator. Or go for the Gen first, up to you. Consider blind siding the platform Defenders, there are other ways to profit too but I can't bother typing for much longer. Note that there are at least 2 routes you can take when exiting, one will most likely be ignored now and then.
- Defending : Secure Points and Generators, clear strays(Preferably have Infiltrators scan), push the Attackers back in their safe rooms long enough for others to jump over to adjacent Bases. Preferably not just to 1 of them. Force the Attackers to retreat to take back their Bases and to pull more Sundies.

Play the way you like.

The point was not to make a Guide, it's lacking and it's too generic. It was to tell you that Bio-Lab design is horrible, it is too open to interpretation in a way; Both sides need to do certain things in certain ways with nothing to indicate that except perhaps from the Mission System, in a very indirect way. Most people will A) See others coming out of a room and stay there to play Duck-Hunt or B) See others get shot while exiting the room and a lot of enemies passing in front and will stay in to play Duck-Hunt too.

There is absolutely no reason NOT to ignore even up to 80% of the Cheese versions and just profit because Duck Hunt. Just bring your free Shottie, RL and be HA or LA. You don't even need to Cert up much, see?

My suggestion is that since indicating does not suffice either way(Duck Hunt WILL ensue as Bio-Labs are now), SOE needs to create a series of BF4-Rush-Like-Objectives for each side that will be fun and will help with the flow. By the way... Blowing up the Generator to get to the SCU should not be Tier 1 Objective, obviously. It would be great if there were multiple Objective Tiers too, each having an effect on the Facility, and it would also be fun if some Defender and Attacker Objectives were the same so that there was guaranteed funneling(Too much of that and you get BF3 Rush where it is obligatory to stop enemies from advancing, whereas here I am suggesting that to stop the other side from completing some Objectives, your side would have to go a bit out of their way, a choice in other words).
BEFORE implementing any of this SOE need to make Bio-Labs more interesting and more varied, they are still CopyPasta.

EDIT

A couple of things more :
I prefer ATTACKING in fact.
CopyPaste constructive replies to the Bio-Lab changes Thread on the Road-Map just in case.
The reason I didn't bother suggesting Objectives and Tiers, is that I think there are enough ideas going around including some I've posted on the Road-Map discussion on Bios and that you were merely discussing the Attack and Defense aspects of Bios in particular.

I think in general I'd like PS2 to work more like a variation of ET: Quake Wars when it comes to Objectives. I seem to remember that on the same Map, Humans and Strogg had different methods to complete the same Objective. I'm probably not wording it correctly, let me give you an example of what I remember(Even if I'm wrong, it's still the way I'd like PS2 to play out);

- Strogg wanted to enter a particular Control Room. Once there, they had to, let's say, wait 30" for a CD.
- Humans obviously wanted to stop the Strogg from doing that. That did not happen by staying 30" in there instead of the Strogg, it happened by Locking Down the room from a different location.

Do you see what kind of assymetrical Objectives this creates? Of course the Humans could confront the Strogg and stop them INDIRECTLY by fortifying the room for X", but that's an alternative and in an environment like PS2 with so much random, I imagine this would call for quick, adaptive planning.

So as I said the example may be wrong because I haven't played ETQW for crazy long and my memory of it may be rose tinted, but now you know what I mean in terms of Objective Tiers. What's more fun, is that in PS2 even if one side were to complete a Tier, it could be reverted by the opposing force since PS2 is perpetual. Meaning it will also create Defense Objectives, it won't be a blind push from Tier to Tier, locking out the Defenders from reverting that Tier if they want. I think in ETQW once a Tier was completed by one of the two sides, it was done. I did not like that, but it served back then. Now we can think big with PS2.

While there are clear gameplay reasons (creating balanced skill vs. skill fights) for every base to be balanced, there aren't really reasons for your arbitrary idea that some bases should magically award victory to a less-skilled team. Certainly if there are reasons, they're not going to be worth having an entire base where good fights don't happen.

There's obviously a massive difference between playing this game at balanced bases with good cover and interesting tactical situations, compared with "a blank void".

The only real problems with biolab:

- they are only 3 per continent.
- They are to small. They need ad least 50 to 100 meter more in diameter. And more Roof things.
- They have to little levels. I want extra level between ground floor and inner dome, corridors.

So, OP doesn't understand how the outposts of the biolab work. He's only discussing an attack made by a sunderer below the lift. If this is what you consider the only 'entrance' to a biolab and then have the audacity to go to the forums to complain about them then you are making everyone who knows as much as you or less just that much dumber for having read your post. There are jump pads at each outpost leading directly up to the biolab as well as teleport rooms that teleport to safe spawn rooms inside the biolab. Each biolab has 3 different spawn rooms, each registered to one of the outposts, one spawn room is allocated to each objective point. I would say that these spawn rooms offer a superior position to the main spawn room of the biolab. I hope this helps, learn which outpost offers which spawn room and you will be smarter for it.

Which Vanu weapon allows them to dominate Biolabs? Let me guess, it's the Lasher, since Biolabs are one of the few places where this weapon shines.

AFAIK, the Scatmax's native home is the Biolab (this is not a call for Scatmax nerfs, please save it for another thread), as Biolabs are one of the places shotguns work best.

I find Biolabs odd, generally they get to a stagnant mess,which I don't find fun as either attacker or defender, but there seems to be a sweet middle ground where the defenders don't have certain points completely locked down and attackers are still able to get throughout the base and things get real hectic, trying to protect/destroy the gen, fight for point flipping, it's all crazy and fun.

When going solo, yes. Unless you play cat and mouse on the roofs inside (as a LA obviously). A lone player can't change all that much in a Biolab.

When playing in a team however, Biolab fights can be extremely enjoyable, especially if the enemy is organized, too. Without interference of tank zergs, shooting randomly into a base and with the variable 2d map...
I had some of the best hours with this game inside a biolab, together with other good players at my side. And when we won, even our enemies confirmed the entertainment value of the preceding battle.
It was hard work, but really deserved to be concluded with approval of everybody's efforts.



As it is with most (semi-) rants about stuff that is supposed to be not fun/entertaining enough, the generally applicable response is very simple:
Join an outfit, preferably one with a focus on organization and infantry play. These outfits resemble, what truly keeps this game alive. You can only benefit from it.

What? Holy crap, what?

I've been around here since launch, and never once have I heard anyone complain about the VS and biolabs. It's always been people whining about NC and their "OP shotguns". Because "all we do is sit in biolabs all day hoping VS and TR scrubs will come to get farmed".

Who said that? If the defenders are unorganized, they simply just lose the base outright in like 4 minutes. Have you ever seen Amp stations fall really quickly? Something like that would happen.

I just don't like the current attacker strategy of playing king of the hill on 1-3 points. Lets have other objectives that make sense. And give organized players an advantage over unorganized ones, even if the numbers aren't in the attackers favor.

I don't have a horse in this race, nor am I necessarily disagreeing with you however.

You have to admit, in his defense, a sundy at those jump pads is reeeaaallllly rough to keep around when most of your force is up top fighting. Yes, during the early murderfest where you get butchered until you break that first line of defense and get into the lab itself you have a consistent source of defenders spawning at it, but once you get in and medics are rezzing people, any defenders worth their salt know EXACTLY WHERE TO LOOK for that sunderer. A couple LA's can break it up no problem.

Just saying, the jump pads, I find, are rarely how I'm entering a biolab. I imagine this is part of the reason.

Yes, but varied base-specific strategies exist at all bases. And they're only required when the defenders put their foot down at those bases. Except Bio Labs.

Except for imbalances in the game (bases, weapons, continent population), the skilled team will always win. So it doesn't really make sense to say you want organized players to have the advantage, if you're simultaneously defending the only base in the game where they don't.

I'm fine with alternate objectives, but that's basically a completely different discussion. If we can agree that imbalanced Bio Labs are a net-negative depriving the game of depth and creating situations where superior organization can go unrewarded, then we can move on to that far more discussion.

The problem with biolabs is the chokes were designed around the hex system in mind. Before, you could surround the biolab and had two soft chokes (airpads) and three hard chokes (teleporters) available for attacking. Since the lattice came in, the biolab hasn't seen a proper redesign for it. I mean; I prefer the possible flow of the current one, aside from the teleporter with direct LOS to the spawn, but because of how the lattice is you're not forced into one reliable hard choke or two shaky soft chokes. Meaning defenders have a LOT less of their manpower being spread out.

The real issue with biolabs is that PS2 lacks the siege mechanics that ps1 had in place that solved this very problem. Most ps1 bases where similar in design to ps2 biolabs in the they had enclosed interiors with a limited number of access points that the defenders could camp. However bases ran off of NTU so it was possible to keep the defenders confined in the base and slowly drain it untill it flipped neutral and the defends could not spawn in anymore. This created true siege warfare in that that defenders had to eventually attempt to push out and retake the courtyard so they could refill the NTU to full or concede the base. Without this mechanic in ps2 any easy to defend location like biolabs turn into never ending farms for the defenders who can sit inside indefinitely and kill anybody who attempts to push in over and over.

I'm not going to agree with that. Because its totally in the power of the attackers to PREVENT the defenders from putting their feet down as you describe. Next time you attack a biolab, try going for the SCU first. It makes the attack much smoother.

We don't have that option at other bases. Its go to Point A (and B and C) and sit there until the base flips and spawn camp. Thats the attacking strategy for every base. Amp Stations and Tech Plants give us the option of taking down the SCU, but only after the base is halfway capped. Thats 3-5 minutes of just spawn camping.

How is spawn camping a varied attack strategy? At least with SCU destruction it forces the defenders out of the biolab and into a counter attack. NOW the attackers become the defenders and shtuff gets real. Now the attackers have to defend the SCU to prevent reinforcements, defend the gens so that they don't get trapped in control point rooms, and defend their own sundies/Gals so they can still spawn there. All the while they have to destroy enemy sundies as well.

Are biolabs perfect? Absolutely not. Are they a step in the right direction, absolutely! At least in raw mechanics. Sure we can discuss layout changes, every base can be improved there. But the mechanics are awesome and the layout isn't too bad as long as attackers understand HOW to attack and approach the Biolab.

The problem and its evident in this thread. Is players are SO used to King of the Hill deathmatch that they get stymied at Biolabs when it doesn't work there. That's the problem. Other bases need to change so the style of attacking and defense is always different. This will help improve the players' ability to adapt. Heck if every base type was taken differently then this wouldn't even be an issue.

You can't prevent people from spawning in a Bio Lab. You can't just hope they don't notice your 3+ caps leading up to the obvious Bio Lab attack. The reality is that any outfit with one guy who can read a map can spot a Bio Lab attack coming 3+ bases away. It's not difficult.

The reality is that if your strategies rely on the opponent not being there to defend, that's an open admittance there's a balance problem.

If I said PS2 had a variety of classes and someone replied, "How is a medic considered varied classes?" you'd think that's a pretty weird response right? Well I told you bases have varied strategies and you asked how one of those strategies was considered varied, which I think is a pretty weird response.

And yeah if you zoom out far enough to sum up every strategy as "capture the base" then yeah you're not going to see the varied nuances to the details of each bases' base-specific strategy. But those strategies do exist.

I mean to some degree you're just like "I dislike the core capture mechanic of PS2" by repeatedly bringing up king of the hill capturing. It's a bit like a chess player feeling bored with this whole "capturing pieces" mechanic or that tiresome "you always have to checkmate the king to win" victory condition. I mean I'm not here to discourage clever suggestions for making the game different and interesting, but at a certain point you have to accept that these rules are what the game is. And yeah if you zoom out far enough chess is just "checkmate the king" but that sort of loses site of the varied strategies that one can use to make that happen.

Outposts need to be returned to being satellites of the BioLab.

In fact, leave them as cap points, no spawn attached to them (BYOS), but the jump pad and teleporters would be attached to cap point.

Cap point WOULD affect conquest of BioLab.

Attacking army could capture up to 3 external outposts with each granting access to the lab itself where the final 4 points are located. However, as long as defenders hold the whole lab, defenders then own enough to return influence of the base back to themselves. Attackers would only need 1 to flip in their favor for a very slow gain (if they hold all 3 external bases) and capturing more would then speed it up.

What do you guys think?

Optionally satellites don't provide influence, but there should at least be an influence cap point or 2 outside the dome so attackers don't need 3 out of 4 caps inside the base to threaten defenders