The anti-everything argument

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by oscarcar2Vanu, May 23, 2014.

  1. oscarcar2Vanu

    Recently, there has been a thread on the topic of aircrafts ability to engage anything, sad however the person posting, did not clarify why, when and where they felt this was the case. After reading it I believe there are some major points of this argument that both sides are overlooking.

    (Warning this will be long)



    Let's start off easy:
    ESFs and LIBs are anti-everything for very specific reasons, the most important point to keep in mind is that the problem dose in no way come from the ability to engage anything, but the ability to engage anything EFFECTIVELY. This just means that people who call aircraft anti-everything, don't classify tank main cannons as such, as they only engage either infantry OR tanks effectively.

    On this note of the ability to engage anything effectively, while it is true that infantry have amazing versatility, the simple fact that the manpower to firepower ratio is so low compared to vehicles, means that this is not an issue.



    While it is true that ESFs are not something that is widely regarded as needing a nerf, it dose have very clear advantages over its ground based counterpart, the lightning.
    (I chose to compare these two as I believe it to only be fair to compare a 1/1 ESF with a 1/1 lighting.)
    The main problem comparing the two is the ability for the ESF to be armed with two separate weapon systems.
    This problem would of course not exist if the Empire Specific Fighter was only given access to A2A weaponry, however it is not.

    What this means is that the lightning is given one weapon that can do one of the three roles (AA, AV and AI)well, while doing much worse at the others.
    The ESF is given nose guns that follow this idea, in that some do A2A and others AI, while being bad at the others, however the wing mounts break this mentality, as they are given AV and AI in one, while retaining the ability to bring an A2A nose gun. (I say this fully aware that bringing two A2A weapons is a clear advantage over just one, however in the light of some of the absurdly good ESF pilots who can manage all the way up to 3v1, they simply don't need this advantage in 90% of their engagements).
    In the grand scheme of things, this apparent advantage, is balanced mainly by the low health pool of the ESF.



    The LIB I'm choosing to compare to the MBT, for the reason that they have similar cost, and while the tail gun can be manned, it has nowhere near the same impact as the belly gun, thus effectively rendering it a 2/3 instead of a 3/3 vehicle.
    In the end we have a 2/2 compared to a 2/3.

    To speak to the LIBs ability to engage anything, currently I know of no LIB crews that main the L30 Vektor or Spur instead of the Tankbuster.
    While the Tankbuster is not the main offender, it is worth mentioning it's ability to cut more than half a tanks health off, and even one-clip other LIBs.

    Now for the belly gun, (Not counting the Zepher or Duster) it is the only single weapon system in the game, that can engage anything effectively.
    Belly guns are the LIBs main A2A defence (that only being outnumbered, or facing a highly skilled ESF can defeat), it's AV powerhouse, and quite capable AI weapon.


    Now compare all of this to the MBT, if the MBT wishes to be effective at one role, it simply cannot give up it's secondary weapon, the reason why is that unlike both the LIB and ESF both weapon systems are capable of engaging the same target, on some tanks even doubling their DPS.



    The conclusion to all of this is that tanks in general need either the ESF or the LIB approach.
    Either access to two weapon systems per operator, making them capable of utilizing a combination of two of the specialisations: AI, AV or AA.
    This, or they need the LIB approach, which essentially means giving them a shredder/Dalton with around 80 degrees upward traverse.



    I personally don't believe this to be the answer, to me, the problem stems from the LIBs ability to defeat most ESFs in a 1v1 fight. The liberator can stay AV and AI in one, be a direct counter to things like MBTs.
    However balance will only be achieved when the LIB is as helpless against an ESF, as an MBT is against a LIB.
    To take this one step further, one might even consider either taking the ESFs second weapon and make them all occupy the same weapon slot to prevent the ESF from doing both A2G and A2A, or simply removing all dedicated A2G weapons from the ESF.
    After all, it is a fighter.
    • Up x 3
  2. lothbrook

    While i think ESFs definitely need to be specialized so that they're strictly A2G or A2A, i don't think making libs helpless against ESFs is the solution, they basically already are if you know what you're doing in an ESF, but rather just undo the resistance buffs to libs so that tanks can once against punish libs that fly recklessly or with good positioning.
    • Up x 1
  3. oscarcar2Vanu


    A fair suggestion, however the ability for tanks to take out libs somewhat effectively was what sparked this change, so without completely ignoring the people originally complaining, I don't believe this is an option.

    I personally main the MBT and I feel the pre buff situation was fine, however the devs seem not to share this opinion, seeing as a change was made.
    As a result this thread was made with the intention of keeping the resistance buffs, and then going from there.

    In the end, I agree, but I'm afraid it isn't the vision the devs have for the game.
  4. WycliffSlim

    Just going to clarify some points that you're incorrect on.

    1: HEAT on a MBT is very effective at both armor and infantry.

    2: The tailgun on a Liberator is a huge boost and the bulldog being there is the main reason that people still use the Dalton.

    3: The Dalton is pretty terrible against infantry anymore. It typically requires 3 hits to kill. Occasionally it's 2 if you're close and have good aim and if you land on them you can do it in 1.

    4: Good Liberator crews can almost always defend themselves against less skilled ESF pilots. Good ESF pilots demolish Liberators. 2 Moderate skill ESF pilots demolish Liberators.

    5: ESF's can only engage ground effectively if they give up Burners/Coyotes/Lockons for Rawkit Pawds. That's the equivalent of a tank giving up its secondary AV gun for something like... a walker. It can technically damage other tanks but it's not very helpful and you'll mostly be using your primary gun to try and survive. That's what an ESF with rocket pods has to do when they fight another ESF. It MIGHT help a bit but in general they're at a disadvantage vs strictly A2A loadouts.

    The main problem with balancing air is the vast skill difference between a new pilot and an experienced one. What it means is that experienced pilots can run sub-par A2A loadouts in order to boost their A2G performance but still beat 95% of the pilots they run into.

    The same basically applies to Liberators. Lib crews have basically a limitless skill ceiling so it's hard to make something that's balanced for bad crew and balanced for good crew simultaneously.
    • Up x 4
  5. WycliffSlim

    Even pilots didn't agree with the massive resistance change. Comp armor should maybe let you take one more shot but not multiple lol.
    • Up x 3
  6. dstock

    Maxed Comp = 1 more tank shell, maybe 1.5 for TR. Agreed.

    I don't care if the resistances are tuned differently for each shell, I don't think it should let Libs tank the current number of shells when maxed out. Comp Armor protects from most ground threats, minus lock-ons, which fall under Stealth. If any defense cert is going to help Libs against ground targets, it should be this one, but not to the current level of insanity.

    Frankly, I want the Dalton resistance to go away also, if only so people go back to using the Dalton over the Shredder, and I have a slim chance of escaping a Lib in my Harasser again.
    • Up x 1
  7. oscarcar2Vanu

    The sever DPS loss vs armor is massive, and any crew running a HEAT cannon is either new or wants their auraxium.
    At the same time, HEAT vs infantry is only better vs infantry when you have something to land the shell on, therefor making it somewhat situational.

    The Dalton compared to a HEAT cannon in terms of anti infantry firepower is so heavily favours the Dalton it isn't even funny, even HE tanks aren't that good at what they do, and most of them get killed by C4 fairies if they get within their effective range.
    Add to that, the fact that tanks cannot fire over most walls and you have flat out worse AI weapons, vulnerable to C4, dedicated AV tanks and Liberators.

    It simply doesn't add up, so no, I will have to deny your claim that HEAT is good at anything, as it gives up a lot of raw firepower for versatility. I mean just look at the things DPS vs armor.
    • Up x 1
  8. JackD

    No it would make the Lib useless. MBT/Lib ratio is very different from ESF/Lib ratio. At least 1/3 of the time i spend in a Lib is spend fighting ESF. If i would die 90% of the times i do this i would just never pull a Lib again.

    Not to mention that MBT´s are normaly save near zergs or friendly bases since there is often enough AA to scare Libs away. Thats not the case for Libs. And ESF also dont fly escort for Libs, just doesnt happen.

    Numbers on average Lib/MBT lifetime would be interesting.
  9. nightbird

    We just need to increase cruise speed and acceleration for ESFs running afterburners so they have a more significant advantage over A2G ESFs and Liberators. More predators=less A2G around.
    • Up x 1
  10. Shockwave44

    Tanks are...
    • Up x 3
  11. lothbrook

    HEAT is not very effective against armor, you will get steamrolled against any AP using tank, and trying to compare equipping rocket pods to equipping a walker on an MBT is dumb, sure they're at slight disadvantage to someone running just AB pods, but no where near the level of an MBT running a walker and running into a 2/2 AV tank, as you can easily still kill an A2A loaded out ESF whereas theres no situation where a walker using MBT beats a 2/2 AV tank, lol.
    • Up x 1
  12. AssaultPig

    ESFs do not get to be anti-everything; if you are running rocket pods, any equivalent-skill pilot with a proper A2A fit is going to take your lunch money. You also have significantly less ability to get out of trouble/evade ground lock-ons without AB tanks.

    If you are not running rocket pods, you have pretty limited A2G capability. You're either plinking infantry/armor with your nosegun or using a specialist weapon (air hammer, PPA) that limits your A2A options.

    An anti-armor tank can inefficiently kill infantry, but nobody would call an MBT AV turret 'anti-everything.'
  13. TheBlazing

    Tanks > Skyguards > ESFs > Liberators > Tanks

    The circle closes.

    Balance.

    What's so hard about it? Just fix the malfunctioning ESF > Lib link (that is nowhere as clear or as well-defined as Tank > Skyguard or Skyguard > ESF is).

    Thanks and have fun.
  14. WycliffSlim

    It's really not a severe DPS loss. It's something in the realm of 1-2 more shots(I don't remember exact numbers) depending on positioning. Yes, in a hit trade HEAT will lose but if you get the jump and all the other conditions remain the same you should have no problem winning with HEAT.

    Also, HEAT is great against infantry and you don't really need a backdrop. It's not that hard to direct hit infantry with a HEAT round.

    Dalton is honestly pretty terribad against infantry. Now, do I have a problem with that? No. Dalton needed to be nerfed against infantry because it WAS too good. However, it's not anymore which is usually why I run a bulldog on the tail of my Dalton Liberator to mop up infantry.

    Two equal skilled pilots, the one running Coyotes over Hornets/Rocket Pods will win 95/100 times. Even running AB pods against a pilot of equal skill using Coyotes puts you at a huge disadvantage. You basically have to get the jump to win. Pretty much the same if you're an AV/AI tank going up against an AV/AV tank.
  15. SeanFree

    Oh man, that comment on the Dalton being better than the HEAT cannon for AI comment made me laugh. It's the exact opposite, the Dalton got nerfed pretty hard for AI (rightfully so) and is ony good for AV and AA work if you have a good gunner...the shredder is better at AI IMO, throw some thermal on it and you can eat infantry in a couple shots. The people who still whine about the Dalton being OP are the people who get one shotted in an ESF by a player who's more than likely better than them, I know because it's happened to me before and I've done it to people before.
  16. Hoki

    Here is a list of things that could be tried out on PTS:
    • Give lib guns the same sluggishness responsiveness of tank/phalanx turrets.
    • Projectiles inherit momentum. ATM I'm pretty sure no projectile inherits momentum, it just shoots where you aim.
    Those two things could drastically reduce effectiveness of using lib guns for anti-air.
  17. WycliffSlim

    Dalton and Zepher rounds rounds are the hardest things in the game to get truly good at because of how momentum effects them. The angle of the Liberator changes how they come out, the speed changes it, not to mention the fact that it has an fairly large amount of drop and you have to both track your target and yourself on three different axis at once.

    The shredder on the other hand... yeah, it's kinda point and click because it has no bullet drop.
  18. Hoki

    You're certain that momentum effects them? I've never had to back-lead static ground targets even when moving, and that would be angular momentum not just velocity.

    Its hard to tell in videos of duels because both vehicles are moving in the air but its easy to tell against ground targets.

    If I had two computers I could use SCIENCE by filming in a controlled environment.
    • fly straight and fast
    • shoot straight down
    • do not move camera at all
    • note where aimed when fired
    • note where shot lands
    If momentum was inherited, the shot will not land where you aimed.
    I have gotten some good streaks against tanks and infantry and noticed immediately the lack of inheriting angular momentum.
    Watch footage of tribes 2 projectiles if you're not sure what I mean. If a projectile inherits angular momentum, you have to aim behind immobile targets.


    And I've watched many dalton videos and didn't notice any evidence of it either.
  19. WycliffSlim

    I don't know for sure if/how momentum factors into dalton shooting but the movement/angle of the target and firing platform definitely effects it.

    That's why when you're upside down you have a completely different set of leading angles to hit targets. It's not incredibly noticeable while doing straight, predictable passes over ground targets but you can tell when trying to shoot air targets or while performing maneuvers.

    If you want to see what I mean shoot me a message in-game sometime and I'll take you for a ride.
  20. Alarox

    Just because a counter exits it doesn't mean balance is achieved. If the only way to counter something is to shove a pineapple up your butt-hole, I would hardly consider things okay.
    • Up x 1