Bandit vs Jaguar

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by SirFrancisGobelcoque, Apr 20, 2014.

  1. SirFrancisGobelcoque

    Got el Bandito on patch day and been playing with it a lot. Up to about 500 kills with it and I have to say, it is rapidly becoming my favorite carbine for the NC.

    However, I did notice something odd in the Bandit's stats. Since it is clearly supposed to be the NC ripoff of the infamous Jag, the stats should be comparable. And they are in almost all cases: same hipfire, standard bloom for their tiers, normal DPM for both factions, similarly poor recoil, ttk difference of 0.00532 sec of each other, etc...

    Yet the damage drop off of the Bandit falls off an extra tier. Why? This just makes the guns function practically identically at close range but artificially handicaps el Bandito at range. This makes no sense.

    The Bandit is not the equivalent of a 143 damage 800 rof or 845 rof gun, so why does it have the falloff of one?

    Opinions? Questions? Anyone else playing with the new Carbys?
  2. OddChelsea

    Well if it dropped off to 125 damage it would be infinitely superior to the default Merc. Not saying I wouldn't enjoy the hell out of a blatant upgrade like that but balance has to be made in faction as well as comparing it to other factions gear.
  3. SirFrancisGobelcoque

    Also due to wonky hit detection, the more discrete damage of the Bandit feels more like a gamble than playing with the Jag. I'll get the drop on a heavy and half my mag will seem to curve around him. An enemy will get the drop on me and I'll pull off a hail-mary clutch ADAD, flinging my mouse wildly around and somehow end up the victor.

    While that might be a slight exaggeration the point still stands. Given the choice I'd prefer the Jag to the Bandit for hipfire, but I like the feel of the Bandit's NC ADS a little more, even with the extra falloff. Both guns have not the best recoil, but I'd definitely rate the Bandt as having slightly better controllability at range.

    In reality, you would never be using either of these guns effectively at min damage range. But what the falloff does do is shrink the distance at which an extra bullet is required for the Bandit for the 2nd drop in damage.

    If the extra falloff is due to the very slight increase in Bandit handling, then why wouldn't SOE make the handling similar and not reduce bullet damage by so much? It just seems strange to have the only non-high dps (>750 rof, 143 dmg equivalent) non-smg gun in the game with 3 tiers of falloff.
  4. SirFrancisGobelcoque

    Balance based on recoil, not extra falloff which doesn't exist on faction equivalent. This is a trend that has existed throughout the entire game and now they're abandoning it? Just seems strange.
  5. Wrel Developer


    Given how many people have complained about recoil balancing measures, I'm not really surprised that they're taking this route. Adding worse recoil to a weapon limits its upper level play due to the RNG (which you can't compensate for); limiting fall-off damage provides a specific range in which the weapon is useful, which is a very different matter entirely.
  6. AltF4Fun

    Does it really matter with such a big range.Im usually also not killing targets at the min dmg range with my jag.Maybe if im getting lucky once in a while and net a kill.But it would ultimately almost make no difference.
  7. DashRendar

    It does matter a lot, because the steeper slope of the dropoff will pull all of the ranges where one extra bullet is required to kill closer into the user even if you haven't reached min damage range yet. The only place where the dropoff slope doesn't matter is from 0m to where it begins dropping off.

    The steeper dropoff slope of the Bandit is fine to niche it against the Merc, but seeing as how it has only a small fraction more DPS in close quarters rather than even a full tier higher makes me not as excited to use it. Otherwise if it had a DPS of 167/652 with a little worse recoil, it would be the weapon I've been waiting for for a while.
  8. DevDevBooday

    Well if the Bandit had better damage drop off at range, you guys never would have gotten it to begin with.

    The only reason you got it is because theTR hammered it for such bad drop off.
    We wanted range, that gun could not deliver.
  9. OddChelsea

    I'd rather have worse dropoff than worse recoil for sure. The Bandit in it's current state with a grip can be turned into a very precise weapon. This allows for easier headshots and overall better performance in the ranges where the damage is alright. It may take me an extra few bullets but at least with better recoil I can land them.
  10. TeknoBug

    IMO Razor GD-23 > NC Bandit.
  11. iPlague

    There's a few things to take into consideration here.

    The biggest difference between these two guns is the Horizontal recoil:
    Bandit: .175-.175 / .20
    Jaguar: .243-.273

    The Jaguar has more horizontal recoil than the Bandit, thus the Bandit has the upper hand in mid range accuracy, however the drop off to match meaning both guns have to hit the same bullets sucks, but with better ADS control it's a lot more doable.

    TRAC-5 Has 750 ROF and so does the Jaguar
    TRAC has .225-.225 horizontal recoil with a 2.35 FSM - Jaguar with .243-.273 horizontal recoil and 2.1 FSM

    AF-19 has 600 ROF and Bandit has 632.
    AF-19 Has .175-.175 horizontal recoil with a 1.75 FSM - Bandit with .175-.175 / .20 Horizontal recoil with a 1.75 FSM


    Hip COF Standing
    Hip COF Crouching
    Hip COF Running
    Hip COF Sprinting
    Hip COF Crouch Walking
    Hip COF Increase Per Shot
    Iron Sights COF Standing
    Iron Sights COF Crouching
    Iron Sights COF Running
    Iron Sights COF Sprinting
    Iron Sights COF Crouch Walking
    Iron Sights COF Increase Per Shot
    TRAC-5 CoF
    1.5
    1
    2
    5
    1.5
    0.1
    0.1
    0.1
    0.3
    2
    0.2
    0.05
    Jaguar CoF
    1.25
    1
    1.75
    5
    1.25
    0.1
    0.1
    0.1
    0.35
    2
    0.2
    0.05

    AF-19 CoF
    1.5
    1
    2
    5
    1.5
    0.12
    0.03
    0.03
    0.3
    2
    0.15
    0.06
    Bandit CoF
    1.25
    1
    1.75
    5
    1.25
    0.12
    0.03
    0.03
    0.35
    2
    0.2
    0.06


    ROF / 60 Seconds = Rounds per Second * Bullet damage = DPS of the weapon

    TRAC-5 And Jaguar has the exact same DPS
    750 / 60 = 12,5 RPS * 143 Damage = 1787.5 DPS

    AF-19 however has less with
    600 / 60 = 10 RPS * 167 Damage = 1670 DPS

    Bandit Gets an increase though!
    632 / 60 = 10.5 RPS * 167 Damage = 1759.06 DPS

    TL;DR
    • Then there's the higher damage tier factor to take into account for headshots - basicly meaning the Bandit is slightly superior to the Jaguar - thought not by much in that sense.
    • Bandit has better / only SLIGHTLY worse ADSing than it's predecessor while Jaguar gets upped an entire tier from the TRAC-5.
    • Bandit Has Higher DPS than the AF-19 Where the Jaguar shares the same DPS with the TRAC-5
    • Bandit has worse Reload speed than the AF-19 from 2.75 long and 1.8 short to the Bandits 2.68 short and 3 seconds long - The Jaguar and TRAC-5 sit around the same 3.7 - 3.8 long and 2.7 / 2.8 Short
    • Jaguar and Bandit has the same Velocity sitting at 440 (Lowest NC weapon velocity!)
    Long story short, where the Jaguar has more negatives compared to the TRAC-5 The Bandit has less, it's main negative being the reload speed, and for the Jaguar the worse Horizontal Recoil at the cost for the same DPS.

    Bandit:
    +More DPS
    +Better CoF
    +.75 ADS
    +/- Same ADSing
    -Longer Reload
    -Less bullet velocity

    Jaguar:
    +Better CoF
    +.75 ADS
    +/- Same DPS
    +/- Same Reload speed
    -Worse ADSing / More horizontal Recoil per shot
    -Less Bullet velocity
  12. Bankrotas

    All that says, we need to buff MERC!
    Where did you find those stats?
  13. iPlague

    Patch notes, and the spreadsheet from Vanu Labs and usage of the Bandit / comparing it to the AF-19 and Gauss Compact S in terms of recoil.
    If you doubt my judgement of the Bandit's recoil I suggest you try it out yourself - just remember shooting with and without forward grip on all 3 and you'll notice there is VERY little difference - even so the Bandit might have the same recoil .175-.20 like the gauss Compact S, even though it's not even a tier worse, like the Jaguar has.
  14. Bankrotas

    There are no horizontal recoil stats in Vanu Labs datasheet. I checked it again, though, I already knew about it. And you should never ever pass off you subjective judgement as fact.
  15. OddChelsea

    In any case I think the Bandit is balanced as is and I see no need for a change.
  16. iPlague

    In terms of vertical recoil it's not even listed anyway - not even on DA stats either - where, which I forgot to mention, the Horizontal reocil stats were taken from. Jaguar , TRAC-5 , AF-19 Mercenary , Gauss Compact S - The bandit on DA stats isn't updated yet sadly so I can only presume out of personal experience of the weapon - which as you mention isn't exactly a super duper valid stat haha.

    However it still stands in terms of .75 ADS the Bandit should have more horizontal recoil - even the Carnage has .275-.30 where the TAR has .30-.30 due to it's higher ROF
  17. Bankrotas

    Sorry brainfart. Horizontal recoil is what I meant.
  18. iPlague

    Err I'm more or less trying to say - Buff instead of nerf.

    If it was for me I'd say the Bandit should fire 652-660 for that 11 RPM for the 167 damage gun - low velocity, for the cost of actual horizontal recoil - so It's a CQC Beast.

    And for Jaguar? If anything and give it +50 ROF so it's on par with that VX6-7 in terms of DPS so it's not just a TRAC-5 with a damn smaller CoF and ADV Laser
  19. Flashtirade

    I would be against bumping up the Bandit's RoF to 652, that would just make it a better Cyclone. I think the gun is in an alright spot as-is, but then again I'm just talking from VR testing (I'm not that interested in buying it).
  20. iPlague

    Well the Lynx is pretty much just a better Armistice - Wouldn't be a bad suggestion