Class Balance - Wrel, Koolaid, and Youngblood

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by STLYoungblood, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. FateJH

    That's because mental exercises and anecdotes are useful for representing personal concerns. What actually happens in the game doesn't necessarily have to follow that model.
    • Up x 1
  2. Giggily

    Yeah the HA shield can't save you from a competent player getting the drop. People complaining about how heavies and the shield are overpowered are bad at the game.
    • Up x 6
  3. DJPenguin

    It's true, I'm garbo.
  4. Takoita

    I'm sorry folks, but I take umbrage with you saying (paraphrased) 'MAXes are good at everything right now', 'you can kit out a MAX [...] with one type of weapon on one hand and another one on the other', 'you can play MAX as a normal infantry' and 'they don't have a role'. I strongly disagree with those statements.

    MAXes are in this game because it has 'Planetside' in the name, wtf question is that? It's one aspect of the game that doesn't take after goddang BF and it should be improved if anything.

    As for Engineer update, automatic turrets and radar jammers are the things they need to add, mobile terminals would be, IMHO, not a good idea.

    HA: are you people mental? Latency and game mechanics will screw everybody over if that change goes through. Your SMG Infiltrator having trouble killing a HA 1v1? No ******* ****! You are a guy in stealth pajamas attacking a soldier equipped for room breaching. He can turn on the overshield once he has started taking damage? Be glad it's not just a flat increased maximum hp!

    I really wish for a downvote function right now.
    • Up x 3
  5. Giggily

    Acceptance is the first step.
  6. Nitrobudyn

    That was actually a revenge for teamkill. You can notice the label @9:55 - same guy.
    • Up x 1
  7. Posse

    Well, the reason is quite easy to understand, they just suck at the game but they don't want to accept it so they cry "HA SHIELD IS OP"
    • Up x 4
  8. Axehilt


    Strange that you would lead down a thread of logic which so obviously paints MAXes as overpowered, and then they don't top your list of class imbalances.
    • Up x 1
  9. Posse

    I'd have replied "do you even light assault bro"?

    But yes, MAX/medic/engineer is a good response too
  10. PeanutMF


    I don't think he counts the aberration that the MAX is as a class, that would be an insult.
    • Up x 1
  11. Aegie

    Well, MAXs are not basic infantry units, that is why I did not include them.

    Also, MAXs are not so great without, you guessed it, medics and engineers.
  12. TekDragon84

    The classes don't need to be balanced around 1v1 combat because:

    1. They each have additional utility
    2. The game doesn't NEED symmetry for classes. It's perfectly fine for a battle to have 50% heavies, 10% maxes, 15% medics, 10% engineers, 10% LA, and 5% infiltrators. Every FPS with classes has had asymmetrical class ratios.

    Trying to adjust balance to artificially force people into a 1:1:1:1:1 ratio is not only wrong-headed, it also adds additional balance concerns. If you cut the amount of HA's in half by hard nerfing them, that's going to make vehicles and especially air even more powerful, requiring a huge buff to dumb fire and lock on rockets, creating even more balance problems.
    • Up x 1
  13. TekDragon84

    Also holy ****, Wrel. You're my top PS2 youtube subscription and I'll never get tired of your content - but you are a hot mess when you're unprepared. You should have gotten the topic ahead of time and put your thoughts into some semblance of coherence before doing this, bro.
  14. Aegie

    LA is fun but hardly that effective, especially if you are playing with a relatively organized group.

    Dropping C4 is overrated and so is shooting from rooftops/trees where there is no support.

    Can LA kill a bunch of people who do not look up? Yeah, sure. Who cares though because all the good LA exclusive spots are relatively far away from virtually all meaningful areas to be (cap points, generators, etc.) and being there means you are not able to get or give support in the same ways.

    Can LA drop C4? Yeah, sure. Who cares though because anyone but Infiltrator can drop C4 and the flying C4 trick only works significantly better than non-flying C4 in outdoor areas where there are better (and less suicidal) options for dealing with vehicles. Let alone that pretty much the only use for C4 when you are at a point of interest (generator, cap point, etc.) is anti-MAX unit work where jet packs are useless because they are indoors (even biolabs, where it is arguable most effective for this, have lots of smaller enclosed spaces where jet pack are utterly pointless) so you are still better off as HA+RL+AV nades+C4 or even Medic+C4.

    In terms of accomplishing the so-called game objective (capping the point) there is no class that compares to the Medic. In terms of overall effectiveness, if you are not an Engineer in a vehicle or an Engineer repairing a MAX or an Engineer behind an AV turret, there is nothing that comes close to Medic in terms of overall outcomes.

    Sure, HA, Infiltrator, and LA may help pad a KDR (though, not so much with the KDR that exists now where rezzes do not count as deaths) but ultimately it is irrelevant how many targets you put down as it is only relevant how many allies you have and where they are. I cannot count the number of times my outfit has prevented a last minute cap or staged one just by throwing a Medicball at the point. Likewise, I cannot count how many times I went on a kill streak like shooting fish in a barrel only to watch as everyone gets revived in the time it takes to reload (kill 2 per mag, reload they get revived, kill 2 more, reload they get revived, kill 2 more, reload they get revived, run out of ammo switch to pistol... screw this I'll switch classes and just join the explosive spam since that is the only meaningful counter revive spam). PS2 is about numbers first and skill a distant (very distant) second and Medics keep the numbers up, simple as that.
    • Up x 2
  15. Axehilt

    Seems like "class balance" is just a bad frame for the conversation.

    "Loadout balance" is better.

    "Indoor combat balance" is best.
    • Up x 2
  16. Posse

    Only that the "objective" has been meaningless for as long as I can remember, LA is very effective and very fun to use (though I use it as a situational class)
  17. Inex

    While I generally enjoy Wrel's content, the first 20 minutes of this video had me almost constantly wanting to punch him in the mouth.

    "I know we're here to talk about my thoughts on class balance, but we can talk about that later." - Wrel

    Once you get going, all I want to do is tell him to shut up because he's wrong. ;) At least there is consensus that the game must appeal to casual play, because it's the casual players who pay the bills (both by sheer numbers, and by being those 'whales').

    Thinking of Wrel's example of an Inf knifing a Lib, I think the game can go in the direction of complete omni-role classes, gated by unlocks. My requirement on it would simply be that the method matches the class instead of having the universal C4 unlocks like we do now.

    Imagining roles such that each class has a method (i.e. anti-vehicle work with HE darts, C4, AV turrets, lockons, Medic.... ? ) but only one of them is unlocked by default offers a lot of advantages. New players have a reason to be exposed to all the classes because the thing they want to do right now is quite possibly only unlocked under a different class. As players get more experienced they can pick and choose from the unlockable playstyles available, driving both revenue and play variety.
  18. Aegie

    Fair enough.

    So, if the "objective" is meaningless, what is the real objective?

    But if this were true, then what explains this?

    If you really think that LA is very effective and very fun to use- then where on the scale would you place HA?

    LA is good for getting into out of the way places. So what? Almost by definition, all the meaningful infantry fights take place in locations that are not out of the way and most of these are locations that seem almost specifically designed to make jet packing worthless (all the more so since fighting while jet packing has been effectively coded out of the game). Moreover, any other class in an unexpected location is better than a LA in the same location.

    LA is good for dropping C4 onto vehicles. So what? There are far better, cheaper, and less suicidal ways to deal with vehicles let alone that most locations of any importance are in areas where vehicles are at best a nuisance and at worst worthless.

    In terms of impact on the game play and the outcome of an engagement, the two assault classes are the least important. They could remove both HA and LA and the game would play more or less the same as it does now.
  19. Axehilt


    Not so great? Not only are MAXes great with zero support, but they're better than all other classes with zero support!

    But again, that's why I said that "indoor combat balance" is a far better way to frame the conversation than "class balance". What actually matters to a game providing fun gameplay are the holistic chunks. If everyone feels non-MAX class balance is great, but then MAXes completely trump that balance, then non-MAX class balance doesn't mean crap, does it?
    • Up x 2
  20. Axehilt

    MAXes are a class, though.

    Even if they weren't an official class, they're still part of the indoor combat ecosystem and you can't really have a useful conversation on balance without mentioning them.

    Conversations have to be holistic enough to include the relevant factors, otherwise the discussion is useless. It'd be like talking about infantry class balance outdoors without mentioning the fact that vehicles completely stomp them, making them irrelevant. (But in that case there are multiple vehicles in general balance with one another, so that's fine. Whereas with MAXes it's just one dominant lifeform indoors, and results in lopsided play.)
    • Up x 1