I stuck with mostly passive suggestions for implants because I felt that active ones would be too over powered for their costs. And also the HA abilities are active, it's just variations on their shield. They still require activation and rely on resources, while passive abilities do not require either. I understand that the suit slot is passive, but it's also external gear mostly. A larger shield generator, grenades, ammo, thicker armor, or the like. Adrenaline Pump sounds very "implant"ish or internal, and doesn't provide additional anything except a very minor boost to sprint speed. Compared to having 2/3 grenades, or an extra 2/3 clips of ammo, what is Adrenaline Pump actually worth? As for the comparison with HA, this seems kind of silly when you think about it. HA carry 2 massive guns, a side arm, two shield generators, and enough armor and firepower to give a lightning pause. They can move just fine but I don't see many of them laughing on top of buildings either. LA rely on less overall external equipment, which is why I think implants would be a great way to go with the class. Doesn't have to be anything severe like a regeneration implant, minor upgrades on things that LA typically rely heavily on such as reload speed (since we can't use extended magazines on anything other then shot guns), movement (since we rely heavily on mobility in general), improvements to our grenade tossing (grenades are fun), or tactical data retrieval. Heck could add a jump implant so DJs could get more air before they start their drift. IMO it would be a great tool set. As long as their boosts were not extreme. It would open us up to more options for things to combine with our suit slot in the future.
I dont know what kind of outfits you hail from tho sounds like their pretty newbs since the general idea of outfits is coordinated gameplay....And by "sit".. i generally dont mean camping tho... when u are behind enemy lines u need to think before you act and sometimes sit still just to get a grasp of yer playground.. And LAs see the battle in a totally different angle than anyone else and thats why these are the perfect soldiers for the job.. You might be the ideal for a man that doesnt think before he acts..tho dont drag ewry1 else in since the rest might want to work as a team and play as a team..
You should learn to know a joke =\ You would really think I would call any gameplay besides reckless that of a little cat? When proposing an idea, you should take all implications into account. Yes, for some players it would be achievable to establish a temwork between air and infantry to demolish enemy vehicles (like they can't deal with them on their own). There are other players, however, who play casually, don't care about teamworking for extended periods of time, and this laser pointing thingy would be lost on them. Why suggest an upgrade only some players will be able to take advantage of?
The infiltrator recon dart is the same way. Only some people use or even know what it does! The laser pointer or advanced spotting or whatever you want to call it could be used by casual players to mark a tank for destruction. You don't have to be in an outfit or squad to get friendlies to focus their fire. And highlighting enemies makes everyone's lives easier, unless they are the enemy of course. Wolf, I don't play much HA. I had no idea you had to activate the damage mitigation shield. But I think balancing passive boosts that actually do anything significant would be very difficult. Unless the implants have pluses and minuses. An implant to increase move speed could also decrease accuracy. Reload speed implants would also force guns to shoot slower (to prevent overheating, to keep with "realism"). You'd have to decide if the boost is worth the side effects. Adrenaline pump is just as it says. A piece of armor that injects adrenaline into the LA when sprinting to make us go faster. Though really it should be a temporary boost otherwise our hearts would explode. I think is should be extended whether we get a tool or not. Engineer utility pouch is tiered, why not ours? Our contribution to teamplay is killing things, like HA, but an implant would have to be rather significant in order to affect our ability to kill. Hence why a new short-range anti-infantry or anti-vehicle weapon would work quite well. It would help us do what we do, sneak up on enemies and kill them. HA have a choice in tool between tank or planes (though some do a bit of both). LA could have the choice between infantry and tanks, where our focus is. Giving us anti-air would require a lot more balancing, and subject to a lot of complaints. A flamethrower/torch that consume jetpack fuel would also alleviate problems of having to run back to an engineer for ammo. It would also prevent hit-and-fly flamers.
Imagine a big fight. Say, 20-30 infantry defend The Crown or similar, enemy is pushing with 7-10 tanks. Now, imagine that defenders will have 4-7 light assaults among them, and everyone will be highlighting their own target. What good will that do to anyone? Really, I fail to see what will fo that laser pointing device, that simple Mark will not. And why would rocket launchers need LA's laser if they can lock on on their own. It's all just unnecessary complication. What's the point of having an item that immediately becomes useless upon entering enemy base or any time heavy or allied mech is not around?
Well I know jokes and that wasnt very funny + ive had a bad day sorry for stepping on toes.. My thought was that tanks got IR smoke that makes the target go away...this they already have and does the same thing + would make the IR smoke alot more useful...thx Minsc for the input and for understanding what i mean ^^
Right but the infiltrator tool is a discussion best left for the infiltrators forum. In addition to this, Iridar has a point. Those interested in casual or lone wolf play aren't going to be interested in marking a tank for destruction, they are going to do the destroying themselves. We've all seen vids of LA blowing tanks and sunderers with C4. It's not too terribly difficult depending on your approach. So a tool such as a laser pointer or spotting device similar to what the infiltrators have is probably going to be about as useful. And at this point in time, we don't have any real means of coordinating with allies or a serious reason to do so anyway. True we could do so with bombers, but their point of view makes it fairly difficult for them to miss a juicy target like a tank or sunderer. If we had active artillery pieces in the game, this idea would have a strong position and be better for us. Unfortunately at this time we don't. And even if we did, LA posses the ability to take out singled out targets fairly easily, in the case of a Sunderer, there really is not much call for a dedicated artillery piece to destroy a single target that a lone LA can take care of on their own. Well just a heads up (some of this was news to me too until recently). HA have 3 special shields that they can pick between on top of their normal suit shield. Adrenaline shield which recharges a % based on level of certs every time you kill an enemy, Resist shield which adds active damage resistance instead of damage absorption based on the level you have it at, this shield also drains at a set pace and does not drain faster when taking fire, and the normal HA shield which absorbs damage and drains much like a second set of hit points, however this shield also drains slowly and recharges faster based on level of certs. All 3 shields must be activated with the F key. The idea behind the LA implants is just to provide players with additional options when setting up a focus for their class load out. They would only have 1 implant active at a time just like any other ability (such as a suit ability). Faster reloads were offered as implants before implants were completely removed. Now we just get "boosts" I guess, unless there are implants still available for purchase. And why should LA have the only set of secondary "tools" that would give them penalties? Granted, I like the idea of LA getting spec-ops style weapons. However weapons that step on HA toes or are not versatile enough to suit the LA's need to only carry one main weapon, and one side arm, need not apply. A rocket launcher that can lock onto both air and ground is not a weapon that LA need. I would be ok with something similar to the Rocklet from PS1, this fired 6 dumbfire rocklets that did marginal damage to all targets, had a bit of splash, and the CoF bloomed fairly tightly in single shot mode and bloomed rapidly in 6 shot mode (which fired all 6 rockets in about 1.2 seconds). And PS2 version might have high damage, but zero splash. A PS2 version of the thumper might fight lower damage grenades that had a large splash radius. A PS2 radiator would be an awesome area denial weapon for LA to have. Now admittedly, I don't have a whole lot of time right now Minsc, so I apologize but I only skimmed through your post before responding. So if I said stupid things that are irrelevant then again I apologize. Another option for the Thumper would just be to give us a weapon that was able to launch up to 6 grenades and have magazines such as any normal weapon. Following the same damage and AoE rules that govern the UBGL. As a stand alone weapon, this weapon would be highly specialized and not meant for general use. However it would give LA a unique and powerful AI weapon. Optional ammo such as smoke or flash might also benefit someone using this weapon.
I really really like ATO idea. The idea of relaying information to the rest of your team by spotting with it both complements the class and gives that teamwork function alot of people have been looking for. It's also very simple. As an addition, I think a potential implant could be reduced fall damage. Sure you can use your jets for the same effects, but it would be a convenience thing to be able to use all your fuel on flight and let a passive cover your landing. Not the most useful implant but I think it makes sense in the class and there is no reason not to offer it.
I totally understand the idea behind the implants and think they are very cool but they could really easily become over-powered. Hence why I suggest a trade off for significant improvements. Having our tool be a passive ability is a little odd. No other class has anything like that (know that you educated me on HA shields). But more suit options for LA and all classes would be great. The Advanced Targeting could be turned into a tool akin to the recon dart, but sight based (like my suggestion of binoculars). And would be a great team-based tool as well as assist the lone LA. Especially if it were a spot that tags them in a semi-physical way to maintain spots for a set duration regardless of visibility (radioactive laser that leaves a residue on the target). Combined with a small HUD icon showing enemy locations, you could track enemy movements and really get the jump on people. The flamethrower idea wouldn't step on the toes of HA. They can fight over any range, the flamer would be very close range weapon. This would be in addition to the main and pistol. Just as the rocket launcher is in addition for HA. A small arc in front of the LA would be covered in fire. This would require new effects and might effect FPS though. So the mini-grenade launcher would suit too, and is rather similar to the Rocklet you mentioned. People couldn't yell "bloody murder" about an infinite ammo weapon either. I will admit, my preference is to advanced targeting, but it might be best to give that to infiltrators as a secondary tool option and keep us to assault roles and things that deal damage. The simplified roles of each class: Combat medic: healing, reviving, killing Engineer: repair, ammo, killing, mines Infiltrator: killing, stealth, recon, hacking Heavy Assault: killing, surviving, rockets Light Assault: killing, flanking My rankings are rather subjective, but some roles are designed around killing people and some have functions the others don't. Giving LA the Advanced Targeting Optics would add recon to our suite of tools, which would put us in direct competition with infiltrators (and their recon dart is no where near as good at ATO). Some might argue that we have fancy grenades, but so do infiltrators and they can hack, recon dart, stealth and snipe. We can fly and use the same weapons as engineer. I really hope they don't give us SMGs as our something special, that would be really sad....
See I'm of the opinion that the roles are a bit different. Your definition relates to class abilities, not really "roles". Combat Medics: Rapid repair of infantry assets (healing individuals or groups with the applicator or AOE ability) Rapid recovery of infantry assets (reviving fallen infantry) Engineers: Rapid repair of vehicle assets Area denial (mines, turrets, hopefully eventually fortifications) Infiltrator: Scout (... Recon tool? Sniper Rifle if you verbally announce what you see) Sabotage (hacking, this denies enemy assets and is a tremendous help in any conflict) Heavy Assault: Tactical assault (fluid infantry front lines, mobile vehicles) AV area control (keep vehicles at a distance and/or in cover with lock on weaponry from long range) Light Assault: Strategic assault (stationary targets such as fortified infantry positions, stationary vehicles, and deployed sunderers) All 5 classes are capable of killing enemies. It would be stupid if they weren't. All but one class has 2 set roles, and LA only have that role because they are good at it. It wasn't exactly defined as their role by the developers of the game. Right now Infiltrators suck at "scouting". And yet most of their gear is directed towards scouting. Their one ability that helps with sabotage, which is hacking, is tremendously useful. Infiltrators would need something like ATO or Binoculars in order to be effective as "scouts", so that their ability to obtain and relay information is better then other classes (spotting targets from further away, providing more information about those targets). Changes could be made to accomplish this, replacing their recon tool for binoculars (which would act exactly like my suggested ATO implant), and taking away everyone else's ability to not only collect and share data such as occupancy and health, but ALSO eliminate direction of travel, live feedback on the mini-map regarding location, and remove the dorito. So that when anyone other then an infiltrator "spots" a target, it simply appears on the mini map as a red dot. The size of which is relative to whether that dot is a vehicle or infantry. Infiltrators would have the ability to relay direction, health, shield, distance, an exact icon representing what type of vehicle it is, and a dorito over their head (better yet red brackets that outline it's general position and facing on the HUD). And they would be able to do this from a longer distance away (based on level of certs maybe), and relay this information to you even if you have a physical obstruction between you and the spotted target. That would define them as scouts above and beyond all other classes. Light Assault has strategic assault as the role it is GOOD at. When I say strategic I mean they can assault a fortified position pretty damn well because they are not limited to a set direction on their approach. LA can attack deployed sunderers, enemy positions, even bypass base defenses and attack theoretically secured locations such as generators or turrets. They are not very good at assaulting mobile targets. I'm sure many of you have noticed that in a fluid battle that lacks defined front lines, you tend to die a lot more often then in a battle where front lines are clearly defined by infantry positions. I'm also sure that many have found tanks to be a more difficult target unless they sit still... And ignore you.... When the front lines are constantly shifting, you need HA to either solidify/hold them or push them harder. And if the enemy is pulling a lot of vehicular assets, you need HA to control their approach and force them to keep themselves covered. So as I said before, I'm looking for a second role. Either that or ideas on how we can improve our first role. LA can be excellent for sabotage and very good at recon, even with the tool that the Infiltrators are stuck with. But if the goal here is to avoid stepping on toes, then we need to start thinking of other things. Because I really doubt the DEVs are going to up and change roles on us at this point. So far a Thumper would be an extremely useful weapon for strategic assault. Implants could improve our abilities towards this end depending on how they are created. And Minsc I really doubt passive abilities are more likely to cause unbalanced game play then active ones. It's usually active abilities that cause major imbalances in games. An example is the suit abilities for various classes, none of them are so tremendously over powered that every member of the community agrees that THAT is the ability to use. As opposed to, oh say, C4 or medkits... DJs or JJs... Sorry for the walls of text. I'm practicing my writing skills...
Fair enough, but the HA attacking AV is still assault. They do area denial to all things and are the closest to us in terms of role, so I used them as a place to start. Something completely new would be great, but what role is missing? I like implants I'm just concerned they'll have stats like some of the suit slots, +3% per level will take a very long time to make a significant difference. Which is why suit slots don't get called OP, they don't do as much as certain gun upgrades. But they would be the most diverse option. Lone wolves can pick a health regen one, team-focused folks can pick a sensory enhancement one (like a mobile recon dart). It would let us decide our secondary role, which I like. here are some more random ideas, some aren't very good but might inspire someone to have a very good one: Giving us more explosives would be nice, we could be excellent demo-men. Some small explode on hitting anything grenades could be great when flying. We'd be mini-bombers. But it can be achieved via the under barrel launchers. A sword that hits in an arc at farther ranges would be a lot of fun, but not the most versatile of tools. We are about confusion and flanking, what about a tool that can disrupt friend or foe information?
C4 was the LA team utility in beta. 10 certs for one, 20 certs for two. 700 certs for two? What in the ****?
And the fact that Heavy Assaults, Medics and Engineers get it too. C4 is too expensive in terms of certs and resources to be our tool slot. No other class has to buy their tool and then buy the ammo for it. Our unique abilities/utilities/items: Jump/drifter jets Smoke Grenades Flash Grenades Adrenaline Rush
C4 and a light rocket launcher are so very different. I love my C4 and I wouldn't trade it for anything but a rocket launcer it isn't.
HA attacking vehicles is just area control. A lone HA isn't going to do more then keep a couple of tanks back far enough that they can't peg him down with accurate fire without risking damage to their vehicles. Multiple HA will threaten to destroy vehicles that approach, the exact same thing is demonstrated with more clarity for AA. AA keeps aircraft away from combat zones. Since infantry are less vulnerable to vehicles, it makes them a better choice then say the very short range AV MAX suits. However HA aren't very mobile themselves, they have to strike targets from fairly set-in-stone directions and most sunderer drivers know how to park their vehicles to avoid the HA's rockets. HA doesn't provide area control for infantry, nothing really does. In order to provide area control you need to have a long range and effective means of sustained fire or fear factor (such as lock). It's a lot harder because infantry don't hold the same value that vehicles do. Infantry will always respawn, vehicles won't. So drivers and pilots typically work towards keeping their vehicle alive as long as possible. Big difference between area control and area denial, imo. Area denial is a location that becomes a death trap to enter because it has been mined or blockaded. Engineers need more toys to help them do this TBH. Area control is an active guardian (AA MAX or HA with AV rockets) that keeps opponents back with a long reach weapons with some kind of fear factor. LA don't have area control or denial. They are good at medium range and they are good at assaulting stationary targets. And implants don't really have to be scaled up in power over 5 or 10 certs. They could just as easily have a set effect like Adrenaline Pump currently has, or be spread out over 2 certs. There could also be active abilities, though I'm weary of this. Using an active implant my require the use of the F key for it, and it could have various effects depending on the implant.
We don't have control or denial, agreed, but we could The point of this thread, I thought, was to just come up with ideas and discuss what people like and what would be viable. What about some of the other ideas I mentioned earlier (adding wrist-mounted mini-grenade launcher, FoF distrupter and a sword )? I think implants would be a good idea for all classes and could enhance certain aspects of their gameplay and some could be common pool. Infiltrators could use an implant that increases how long they could hold their breath. But it doesn't add anything new, just enhances certain things that are already there. I'm all for it, and I understand that what sort of effects they could have. I'm just trying to push you to having some new ideas, is all. It's a good idea and is up there in terms of suggestions for our tool, but it just doesn't seem like a tool to me. In the game, tools are handheld devices that you have use to get it's functionality. Perhaps the implants have to be activated and only run for a set amount of time before needing to recharge/resupply. That way they are more in line with the current standard of tools. We don't need an ability, but something physical that we use on infantry/tank/air/whatever.
http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/jackthamans-soe-suggestionbox.80637/ Heres the thread i mentioned Minsc hopefully its to ur all liking..
