A video response to the "NERF HACKSAW" requests.

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Dkamanus, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. Dkamanus

    This is a video me and my outfit decided to provide in order to illustrate the so-called OPness of the Hacksaw:



    (Run until the Thank you for watching message, I must have forgotten to do something and It added 2 whole minutes of black screen)

    As seen, the TR MAX is a very capable killing machine, being able to face the NC MAX once it is on IT'S killing range. And to those complaining about the Slug Ammo fad, remember, that's 300 extra certs NC has to spend in order to be an effective killer at 30m, while TR does not. And ALL NC MAXes must cert into extended magazines, or else we spend much needed time reload, dealing 0 damage, while TR still is shooting, capable of killing us even in closer ranges.

    I've said and I repeat: Slug ammo on MAXes (which excel at breaching heavy infantry positions and defending halls and doorways) are a waste. Although the damage in 1 pellet increases, that whole desctructive potential is lost in one single bullet, making killing multiple infantry zerging your position impossible, and leaving you more vulnerable for attacks.

    In the end, the NC MAX HAS to spend 1000 certs to attain it's full killing capacity AT closer ranges, forsaking long range combat, while having to spend another 300 certs in slug ammo in order for some extended killing power (probably up to 25m against 1 single target, but not against multiple targets the way a non-slugged Hacksaw/grinder can offer).

    This shows how "OP" the NC MAX can be, specially when fighting in HIS domain, which is a biolab or small hallways/corridors. Outside of that, he's a huge paper holder, and learning to keep the distance of him is what will make you more sucessful as a TR MAX user.

    I'll be doing another video against VS MAX in order to illustrate it's problems as well. Just remember: The Heavy Cycler isn't even the best AI gun for the MAX and still was making short work of that NC MAX when he fought on his terms.

    Thank you.
    • Up x 26
  2. Yooko

    Good job crack the mechanic of the max.
  3. Skadi

    I dont want a haxsaw nerf, i just want every faction to have their own version of the scattmax, the NC could recieve their own version of the cycler for all i care, i just wish for a infantry instagib weapon for CqC such as the NC have.

    To emphasize, i meen the TR get A version of the Scattcannons, and only one giving them A CqC option, but no ability to specalize in it, or versatility through other versions, this would go the same way for the NC Cyclers, they would recieve A varient, giving them A mid to long range option , but no ability to specalize in it or versatility through other versions.
    • Up x 2
  4. Oreo202

    Alright, make a video showcasing a VS max with dual blueshifts vs an NC max with dual hacksaws.
    • Up x 2
  5. Goodname

    The NC MAX only loses 1/4th his health at 5m. It takes him 0.5 seconds to kill.
    The TR MAX only loses 1/4th his health at 20m. It takes him 5 seconds to kill.

    You call this even?

    Furthermore, it's harder to maintain accuracy at a range and it's easier to find cover. Is the NC MAX really going to stand perfectly still, in the open, for a full five seconds? Is he really going to maintain a distance of 20m the entire time? No. He's either going to take cover until he reloads or charge in and obliterate the TR MAX.

    So what your videos are REALLY showing us is that an NC MAX can charge in and drop a TR MAX in under a second, while the TR MAX can only peck at an NC MAX for a few seconds until he dives behind a corner to an engineer or charges away to safety. Even if a TR MAX is able to knock off 3/4ths of an NC MAX's health, attempting to charge in to finish him off only has a 50% chance of success if the NC MAX missed every shot.
    • Up x 6
  6. Skadi

    I do agree that VS need a better counter to max suits, while Blueshifts are essentialy Mercys and can shred infantry, the VS need hteir own version as well, also i still think VS should get dual lashers for the Max :p

    PS. @OP, should have also included a clip of the NC Max using Dual Falcons, as they are the definite long range solution for NC despite them being labeled as "AT" They can oneshot infantry and are fairly easy to aim.
    • Up x 2
  7. Goodname

  8. Dkamanus

    As I said, its an AI comparison. The AV Pounder sucks as and must be revisited for sure.
  9. nella

    NC is supposed to be the faction using shotguns, which is why we get the jackhammer as our unique HA weapon.

    But fair enough, remove all faction differences. I'd love the carv, orion, mossie, scythe and magrider.

    Edit: I guess what they could do is reintroduce the flamethrower and have it as a CQC weapon, but obviously not be as good as dual shotguns.
  10. Skadi

    Your going abit overbored, im asking for a slightly gimped version of the shotguns, not a clone, right now NC are the ONLY CqC max suit.
  11. Purg

    Thankyou!

    This is the exact reason why I've posted many times that I would trade my Scatters for Chainguns! The TR MAX has a much higher all round killing potential than the NC MAX except against an NC MAX at 5m - and here's video proof that will largely go ignored.

    NC MAX killed when TR MAX is 10m+ away. I have to spend 2000 certs on extended mags to win at 10m!! Oh, but all MAX engagements occur at less than 10m. They have to with an NC MAX, otherwise you get shredded! I know I can't take on a TR MAX at more than 10m so I don't! If you're stupid enough to engage me at my ideal range, since I won't engage you at yours why shouldn't I melt you?

    Sadly, I'm sure there will still be an avalanche of nerf Hacksaws, NC MAX still too powerful posts.
    • Up x 2
  12. Purg

    I'd like to see it too. For the record, Falcons can't one shot a full health infantry at close range - takes about 50m for convergence to kick in so both shells land on target. I place a lot of emphasis on the 'can' one shot infantry at 50m, too. Can but often doesn't.
  13. Santiak

    Thank you for the video, much appreciated. :)
    While I admit I have been arguing for a slight adjustment to the Hacksaw, this certainly puts things in a better perspective.
    For the record, I've almost exclusively used Mattocks, so I admit I probably relied too heavily on theoretical data rather than practical useage when discussing the Hacksaw. Also seeing as my play-style when using them was for gameplay purposes, and not test purposes, I automatically played to their strengths, and rarely found myself in situation where I was too far outside my own optimal range.
    I apologize. :oops:

    After seeing this, I agree that the Hacksaw seems more balanced, all things considered.

    Thinking back to most, if not to say "all" - if it didn't come across as a blatant generalization, of my engagements with VS and TR MAX units, I've rarely encountered a VS or TR MAX that backed away from me when shooting.The same way that I've rarely seen a NC MAX attempt to stand on the catwalk of the tech-plant or entrance to a bio-plant in the same manner VS and TR do.
    Perhaps the nature of the problem is that the NC MAX can approach both infantry and MAX units with the same mindset of "getting as close as possible", while the VS and TR have to shift between "resonably close" versus infantry, to "back away" versus NC MAX units, and if that should be the case, it wouldn't be a balance issue - but a matter of playstyle.
    At the same time "Charge" is of more benefit to NC than TR or VS, as NC can use it offensively, where TR and VS can only use it defensively or tactically. Which is why I really hope we see empire specific MAX abilities soon.
    Effectively, the Charge ability works the same way as the PS1 NC Shield worked, but has no effect on either TR damage output, and only slightly benefits VS mobility/dodge (compared to jumpjets from PS1) - as their empire specific abilities did for them.

    Again, I apologize for the generalization, but to reiterate, my personal experience fighting VS and TR MAX units is they rarely back away while shooting, making it more likely that - as the video showed - I'll get in where my damage increases exponentially to the point where I begin to outdamage the enemy MAX.

    Again, I am more inclined to consider the Hacksaw balanced, and I've always maintained that only a slight adjusment was needed.
    Going back to that argument, I agree that if anything, the amount that would need to be adjusted would be far less than what I suggested, all things considered.

    The only other issue I can still see, is the notion that situation where the NC MAX is within optimal, is far more likely to occur inside some bases such as towers and bio-plants. But on the other hand, the opposite is true, to some degree, for outposts and tech and amp stations. But as previously mentioned, I suspect that to be because NC has an ability to work around their shortcomings outside towers and bio-plants, where TR and VS doesn't.

    *opens the trash-bin and throws out his previous numbers and most of his earlier statements, only leaving a footnote suggesting "an ever so slight boost to TR bullet speed and VS accuracy (Make it a Lasher!)" on it..* :oops:
  14. Cryptek

    So a hacksaw with extended magazines, will win at 10 meters and below. That is nice to know (I know it was grinders in the extended magazine video, but going by the amount of health the TR MAX had left at 10 meters against hacksaws, it's a safe assumption)... Doesn't do jack to help me defend or assault a biolab as VS tho.

    I will still maintain that the TTK against MAXes with the hacksaws is too low, with all the other variants it's at least limited to peoples clicking power, giving you time to do a 180 and hit sprint.


    In either case, thanks for the video and in advance thanks for planning to make another one for the VS.
  15. Purg

    LOL. I was against your 'slight' adjustment and thankfully now it's clear to you why. So tell me, if you had an employer come to you and say - well, last financial year was tough on the company and unfortunately we've had to give you a slight pay cut, I bet you wouldn't be expecting your pay to be halved!
  16. BHB_rightnow

    Thanks much for posting this DK. If i was a lesser man i might trash talk certain people, but your vid says it all.
  17. Eric Smith

    I do thank you for the video, but it still doesn't address most of the issues that corp up in real battles. In real battles the opponents are not facing each other 1v1 most of the time, in real battles the opponents do not start firing at the same time, in real battles the opponents do not start out at full health all the time, in real battles the opponents do not stand still and let themselves be shot. In this test the TR Max did not squat (which would have increased his effective accuracy) and the NC Max did not move around (which would have reduced the TR Maxes accuracy), the NC Max did not have cover he could hide behind while reloading, and neither Max attempted to close or open the distance between them.

    Many of these things that happen have major effects on the outcome of an engagement, and I believe that more of them favor the NC Max than favor the TR Max. For instance, the 10m and 15m fights were lost by the NC Max because of the reload time alone which could have had a vastly different outcome if the fight were 2v2 (whether the second was a HA firing too or an Engy repairing) or if the NC Max had cover to hide behind.

    In the end this engagement was about as realistic as the showdowns in old westerns. They make great cinema but nobody ever actually fought like that.
  18. Purg

    <facepalm>
  19. videogamesaregames

    This post will be ignored because it's the truth.

    Also there are these things called AV maxes and they're supposed to be good at killing max units yet the hacksaw, an AI max, does their job better than they do.
    • Up x 3
  20. Purg

    I call it a challenge.

    What the video actually shows us is the misconception of the Hacksaw and its lethal range. Nothing more. I bet if you were to put wagers on the final outcome of a TR MAX with Cyclers and a NC MAX with Hacksaws at 10 paces, almost all of the money would have went on the NC MAX. I'll admit, mine probably would have too but I would have bet my house on 15m to the TR.

    People always seem to throw up scenarios where they engage NC MAX and his cadre with their lone MAX and complain when they lose. Why didn't you have support? You pecked away at the MAX and he escaped, why didn't your support shoot a rocket into his face, follow up with nades into the area to finish him and whatever else is behind that door? It's just easier to complain about what's fair.

    Planetside 2 would be just another mediocre shooter if all weapons and vehicles were the similar. This appears to be what people are asking for. Toe to toe, an uncerted NC Hacksaw MAX (which costs 2000 certs to do - you don't get a Hacksaw as standard kit) can be killed by a TR MAX at 10m who only has to spend 1000 certs. If he equipped the free pounder, could well have won faster.

    Now how you choose to use that knowledge to defeat an NC MAX is up to you.