[Tools] A response to the last Round table

Discussion in 'General Gameplay Discussion' started by icklathid, Apr 4, 2014.

  1. icklathid Trailblazer

    First to say I have been here scene day 1 of alpha and I am a well informed player and a advanced builder in other games and 3d programs.

    After watching the latest EQN Round Table Response #30: Landmark Tools. I was amazed at how out of touch the team was with what the community is saying about the tool set. The current tool set is like a box of crayons. I understand we are working with a basic raw bones set of tools and that the desire to keep the learning curve low. The idea of making us use rudimentary tools so that we can make them do thing that were unintended to create things. Should speak loudly to the fact we want more advanced tools to be added. The results of the poll should also be speaking volumes as well that the tools are so bad that we could not pick one out of the list that was wost than the others. the desire for much finer details is clearly evident. hence the creation of MV,ZDV etc.. These are work around to a existing problem not the solution to it.

    I am not expecting the complexity of a Full 3D editing program. That would be nice but unrealistic for the basic player to start with. Adding in a advance tools set that can be used for advanced builder is badly needed. I suggest walking down the hall and having a discussion with the modeling team and getting feed back from them as to how they think the tools are would be a good start. Then really I mean really look into the forums as to what the players are asking for...

    I expect great thing in this aspect of the game and fully understand that its a process. learning a new tool set is always challenging and it appears that soe may be underestimating the ability of the user to work with more complex configurations.

    All the hard work of the Dev team is truly appreciated and this is not a bash of the team just a form of constructive criticism. We should always be pushing the limits.
    Davorum, xelara, Daetrin and 22 others like this.
  2. Raldor Trailblazer

    I hadn't seen that video, and it's horrifying.

    Quotes about the dev team's mindset when it comes to the tools:

    "There's a camp that really wants a cylinder tool, and there's a camp that says we've got all the tools that you can use to make a cylinder. Why do we need to add more?"

    "It is kind of a slippery slope, because once we add a cylinder tool, what's to stop us from adding 4 or 5 more?"

    Wow, really troubling stuff. Good luck getting more advanced building tools if that's already their mindset. Also, the microvoxel was a cool discovery, but they've been hanging their hat there for too long now.
    xelara, Zeuljii, Proelium and 14 others like this.
  3. Pouncequick Trailblazer

    Gah....... either they have lost the original concept falling back on the mindset of old school game designers rather than tool makers, or they are spinning not having the budget to improve the tools.

    Either way it does not look good for Landmark :(
    Davorum, xelara, Proelium and 2 others like this.
  4. Ice Queen Trailblazer

    #1 reason for people given beta keys from me for why they aren't playing, tools are terrible and not enough shapes to build with, second reason, there's not much to do other than gather and build.
    So guess what, they're not even playing now :(
    Saavedra, Rozelia and Kitasia like this.
  5. Pouncequick Trailblazer

    Even as 'old school game designers' more tools equals more things for us to discover while adventuring in the world....

    I am back to "I don't think they have thought this through very far"

    Edit: Watching this makes me think the wrong voices are being listened to. Micro voxels would have been discovered regardless. It isn't like the smoothing tool is only used to make cylinders....
  6. Capzi Founder

    I was kind of surprised to see that video too. The fact that they are even debating a cylindrical tool doesn't bode well for more improved tools in the forseeable future.

    I understand their reasoning, but if they really want primitive shapes only, then all they need to do is look at the major 3d editing programs. Each one has a set of primitive shapes, as well as advanced shapes, even though they aren't labeled as such.




    and then wiki has a short section on them too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_primitive

    The tools we have now get the job done, but they require unneccesary steps to make a cylinder, torus, and pyramid, when they could just be implemented. It just hinders progress, more than it helps. I still enjoy the building process though, even with the limitations. I'm sure the devs are listening, so Landmark can be more friendly for builders, new and old.

    btw, i'm not advocating for more complexity for the new user, but these basic forms should have been learned in grade school.
    Davorum, Daetrin, Rozelia and 6 others like this.
  7. Sir Digsby Active Member

    They completely contradicted themselves. On one hand they were saying they didn't want too many tools because it would get complex. Then saying we have a way already to make cylinders. Which is extremely complex to try and make.

    I watched the whole video in utter disbelief.
  8. Vargtass Trailblazer

    I was hoping for a comment on their discussion of the old vs new smooth tool.

    In regard to the complex vs the simple, how about having a couple of more specific tools and making us work a bit harder to get them.
    Perhaps it could be part of some questline to aquire these tools. A master architect asks us to prove ourselves as builders and create a cylinder (pasting it in some voxel recognizing space) with the power of our imagination and creativity, and then as a reward you get a cylinder tool. ^^
    Lylliannah and Dissenter like this.
  9. Moge Trailblazer

    We definitly need more advanced tools...I find myself using more props when I build, not voxels. The voxels are great for terraforming....but not so great for housebuilding. Housebuilding with voxels looks like lego.
    LandWright likes this.
  10. Black Founder

    I just saw the round table too... very disappointing...

    I have the feeling that they aren't pushing the tools development because of the player studio.
    Think about it... if anyone could build anything easily, then the player studio would have no use...
    Ilathi and icklathid like this.
  11. GreylockDS3 Trailblazer

    I cant say I was surprised at all , The roundtable and forums worked exactly as intended. They saw and noted our feedback , are they going to necessarily use any of it, well not necessarily. They don't have to especially as they have there own ideas and vision of where Landmark is going that trumps ours.

    Am i disappointed at the cylinder thing , well sure it would be nice to have one , but i have been building cylinders with making my own circular template , stacking seven and slicing. I can do it pretty fast by now and use it for inlays and a number of other things.

    Is this daunting to a new user ? yup , but i have spent time with new users themselfs teaching them how to do things (even giving them some of the templates off of my claim if they ask to play with)

    Will they have likely more tools then us wile they are building Next ? of course they will , It was even eluded to this in this video.

    The one encouraging thing to note here is that they dont give into community demands necessarily , so those camps who want to PVP everywhere for instance wont likely get there way and greif other players. There is also a variety of other camps here on the forums who want to demand massive game altering things that go against the patterns we have seen and the articles and vids that we have watched .. They wont likely get there way either , this is a good thing and promising that our castles wont get kicked down by some wanting to be bully's.
    Dkonen and Skyles like this.
  12. Xephyre New Member

    I'm relatively in the same boat as everyone else. We need more advanced building tools, ESPECIALLY a cylinder tool and other basic shapes. However, playing devil's advocate, one thing that I will note is that everything they mentioned (different camps for and against cylinder and more tools, etc.) is that they said those arguments are what are going on INTERNALLY. This means that there are people within the development team that are lobbying for more advanced tools and such, they simply haven't reached a consensus, again internally, of which way they want to go yet.
    icklathid likes this.
  13. Lord Buto Founder

    Ow I didnt see this thread. I just posted a similar one. I was super disappointed by that round table discussion.

    "We are debating whether to add new tools because we are afraid it might pose a thread to experimentation." Nicely said devs but complete bullocks. I elaborately commented on the video in a other thread, but this to me sounds like a weak excuse to stall time or the inability to create basic stuff like this. We are not even talkin on new tools that could help us or the tweeking of the current smooth, line and selection tool. JUST BASIC PRIMATIVES!!

    It would help alot of player and newbies to create the stuff they like without going through the manual steps of creating them. For instance creating circel is just time consuming for no reason. there is no need for experimention here just a tool to make life easier!

    Although we have only been a week or so in Closed Beta this response video promises nothing good...
    icklathid, Dissenter and Raldor like this.
  14. DorkishSanJose Trailblazer

    i couldn't agree more even the most basic free 3D modeling program has a ton of basic shapes they usally have dialog boxes where you can input x y z values you can lock axis you can copy object along any and all three axis makes things like wheels super easy 10 copys along the z axis etc

    if they don't want to build the tools then they let us import objects from another program one themost creative 3D programs out there was fractal designs detailer that let you actualy paint 3D object use different brushes like oil chalk pencil pen etc etc etc etc etc
  15. Rhiaden Member

    Surely adding more basic tools would increase creativity?
    Daetrin, Ilathi, DanteYoda and 5 others like this.
  16. Sawlstone Trailblazer

    Once again I'll say it, this team has a lot more to focus on the just building tools.

    They have said already how complex the water system they are implementing is and how its taking a lot of time and focus. From what I am reading, there are several people that would rather halt the work being done on that to pour their resources to adding more defined building tools? Why should they do that, when other parts of this game need to be developed?

    People are so quick to condemn and frankly the "Builder Camp" needs to relax a bit.
    Bildric, Arien and Skyles like this.
  17. BadDecisionDino Founder

    Not a single mention of the smooth tool. Wow. Yeah, I'm done. You guys cannot be talked to. That you could look at a poll that tells you "All of these tools need so much work that I can't even pick out which one" and think "Aw, all right, the data is spread out so that means we're doing awesome!" just confirms to me that these Developer Round-tables are nothing more than an exercise in create data interpretation to suit whatever the Devs wanted to do internally. This was horrifyingly out of touch.

    And oh my god, if I hear another dev go on about the miraculous discovery of micro-voxels I'm going to puke. YOU REWARDED US FOR DISCOVERING MICRO-VOXELS BY MAKING IT 10 TIMES HARDER TO WORK WITH MICRO-VOXELS.

    And no one accidentally discovered them while trying to make a cylinder.
    Daetrin, Proelium, Rozelia and 7 others like this.
  18. GreylockDS3 Trailblazer

    I stated my pace and how I am fine with the no cylinder and other things , this is organic and by the points we will not get everything we want. They will take in all of the info we give them , if they think its worthy they may debate it internally and see where they stand.

    But . note in the video the people they are talking about is the US and tools development people . These are not likely the people working on the cavern and water systems . The development of the tools is not takeing away form those systems as they will have there own teams working on those systems.

    There is resources going into both at the same time , I am sure there is also a team of animators and scripters working on NPC mobs right now as well , which is independent of these other two teams , other then meetings that they are internally having about design directions and plans for the interconnection of these systems , and how to keep them form negatively impacting one another.

    I am not saying they don't listen to us at all , they are very much against the system greifing players , and players doing this to players , look at the developments added in to protect the people hosting swap meets that has come out in the last little bit.
    Lord Buto likes this.
  19. Sawlstone Trailblazer

    Thanks for the insightful post Grey, but I just watched the video and did not get the same feeling regarding development as the above has. I heard the dev say some valid points. It certainly is not anti productive to refine the tools we already have like they mention doing. This is what I mean by needing to relax. I know everyone wants to have input and get there ideas and voices heard which is great but understanding that they are professional developers of an already ground breaking game should garnish some self control when posting for more of something.

    Every new patch is turning out to be "Oh they did nothing to the tools, we are doomed" or "they did nothing to the crafting RNG" we are doomed or "they did nothing to us having to harvest" Oh no we are doomed.

    People need to relax and let some development happen.
  20. GreylockDS3 Trailblazer

    I agree fully Livingstone , It reminds me of a song .. lets see if i can recall the lyrics

    " you might not get what you want , but if you try sometimes you get what you need "

    This is still early development , the devs are working for the moment on what we NEED to play the game . Let them work later if they consider it a good idea on what we WANT.

    We do not NEED a cylinder tool , at all .. but haveing one would be nice (its a want)
    We do not NEED the old smooth tool , (we can still do micro voxels , its harder but i have the micro voxels template and such , go to your local swap meet and normally someone puts a hole array of them up , template and work away)

    The line tool is not really broken , it just can not do specific things . and it can not create angles with a single voxel due to how voxels work .... again with some work you can get most of the effects your going for. Let them tweak stuff one at a time.
    Codei and Skye Ashley like this.