How would you like to group up?

It was mostly a waste of time.

Welcome back Amris, where ya been?

This is the one thing that WOW did extremely well:

You could queue for a dungeon, and just do your over-world stuff at your leisure then when there was enough for a group your dungeon popped and there you were.

Another option is to tailor the dungeon to the amount of people playing. Say you have only two people to group with, those two people can finish the dungeon. They might not get the best drops, or drops that say a five player group would, but they'd be able to play together and do the dungeon.

I'd just like to add my support to the opinion that random group finding tools are unhealthy for the game's community as a whole. We need methods that build interpersonal relationships with the other players we coexist with, not tools that detract from people bothering to get to know and respect each other. Being able to hop in a group finder might make getting things done easier and facilitate a more efficient use of game time for those who have little of it, but the cost is too high for the rest of the community.

I really like how DDO handled this. You can post your group to a list of groups seeking players and someone can request to join. The list gives all the info about the group and you can see who is making a request if you are a group leader. It makes grouping easier, but retains all of the control for both parties.

TLDR: A lot of the social grouping mechanics will be determined by the content of the world outside the dungeons. If you want players to be social, make a social game.

So I played EQ from launch until Luclin. I have also played WoW from launch (on and off) through Pandaria. I've played about 6 months worth of GW2 and SW:TOR each. I've noticed a pattern. If the world (outside the dungeons) is difficult to solo you players tend to be more social and learn to work together. If the outside world is easy to solo then group dungeons are seen as an annoyance and not not something that takes the game to the next level.

EQ's world was difficult to solo. It was easier to excel at the game if you grouped up. Dungeons were the place you went for a challenge with you favorite group. They were rarely pick up events.

WoW started off with a world that required some grouping. You could solo a lot of it but there was still a lot you needed to group for to complete. It helped cement social bonds. The game in its current state has removed a lot of the need to group in the above world and so no one really knows how to communicate in a dungeon.

GW and TOR both have worlds you can solo and consequently dungeons are an annoyance to find a group for and complete.

The largest problems with current MMO design is that it creates a world where the players are "alone together". They are grudgingly social because there is no real compelling reason to be. I am not proposing making the overworld exceedingly difficult, that is only one possible solution.

Ultimately the question is not what kind of grouping mechanics should dungeons have, the question is will our game give players a good reason to build social bonds.

I believe that the consensus here is that people like the convenience of a group-finder tool, but if given the choice between playing with friends (and promoting a sense of community) or being randomly matched, most people would prefer to group up with friends or community members to form stronger bonds.

Given that a group-finder tool of some variety is basically required in any modern mmo (for many real and good reasons), the question becomes how do we create a group-finder system which promotes community rather than destroying it. Some thoughts:

1. There should be incentives on groups sticking together and running multiple dungeons/content together. Not only does this give the chance for a stronger bond to form, but it encourages players to be friendly and team-oriented (otherwise they will get kicked from the group and lose the chance at those incentives). The options for type of incentives can vary, obviously, but it needs to be something which is worthwhile, without feeling punishing for people that can only run 1 dungeon at a time due to other commitments. Special titles, cosmetic gear, extra money, renown on a leaderboard of some type.

2. At the end of every dungeon/group activity there should be an option for each player to rate their party members. This could go into a personal match-making ranking which gives friendly/good players a higher chance to group together. This is particularly amusing as it allows those players who prefer to play in silence or grief others the opportunity to only group with each other. Thus the system would attempt to group people of similar rankings.

3. On top of or in place of the system in point 2 (especially if that proves difficult or problematic) a person should have the option at the end of grouping with someone to give them a thumbs up/down (and possibly a neutral or abstain), as well as to write a little comment on them (and the option to friend them right from this interface). It's important that this interface be obvious and pop up every time to ensure that it is used thoroughly. When searching for a group, the group finder will prefer to match you with people you've played with before and have given a thumbs up. In addition, when you join the group with them, a box would pop up detailing your last time played together (what date/content) as well as the comment you left on them back then. This way you would be likely to play again with people and build friendships, and when playing with a person you can link them back to before, instead of forgetting you ever grouped with them.

For example, you are put into a group with 3 people you've never played with, and one who you have. On the one you've played with before will be something along the lines of: Last grouped with on 1/1/10. Played for 3 hours. Completed the Forest of Evil dungeon together. Note: good warrior, seemed friendly.

These thumbs up could be tied to a type of social leaderboard, where players who have been recognized by the community as friendly or helpful can be seen and rewarded (see number 1 above). These social points could be awarded through both thumbs-up and staying together as a group, and various other things.

4. In addition to the thumbs up for good/friendly players, there could be a separate button to click if people are especially chatty, or if they are rp'ers. Then in your personal preferences you could choose whether to be matched with chatty players or rp'ers. This could change from day to day depending on your mood, but this way people could especially pick out talkative players to group with if they choose. Thus the matchmaker would attempt to find a group for you made of (in order of importance): players you thumbed up, players you've played with before but left blank or neutral, players you've never met. And in each category it would choose first people who are chatty (if you clicked that). You would always avoid down-ranked players.

It is called most MMORPGs out there and yes that includes the by far most successful MMORPG of all times. I can say the exact same thing about having no contested content and scaling content no matter how large the groups were. No thank you. It's called GW2 or FFXIV:ARR. We need to move past it because they felt old and boring already at release. It is just a matter of opinion and acting as if something is bad just because it is old or has been like that for a long time does not mean your opinion becomes any more valid.

I've played a lot of games and camped and waited for groups for a very long time. The funny thing is that I have also played games where this did not exist and you know which games had problems with player retention and which I thought got old really fast? Yeah it wasn't the former. It is funny when people mention WoW as an example of how MMORPGs "need" this and that to succeed in todays market (Not saying you did btw). Mostly because whilst it is true WoW did a lot right you can also see how the more they went toward these things you "need" such as no attunements and auto raid finders for super accessability, the less people they kept and the lower ratings the expansions got. Of course the fact that the game was getting old plays a part in it, but there is nothing to suggest that these "needed" things were good, quite the opposite really.

The MMO genre has been stale for a very long time now, basically since everyone wanted a piece of the WoW pie and tried to make a copy of it, so I agree that we need to move past the standards that WoW set and look ahead. That does not mean that everything about WoW or other older MMOs is bad however. The things you talk about as if they are bad things are for me the most important part of any game. For me it is a deal breaker, if they make EQN into what you just suggested I won't play it, simple as that. No that is not a threat in any way, I think SOE should do whatever they think will be best for them and people in general, but quite honestly I don't believe what you suggested is the future of MMOs, if anything it is something a couple of games have tried and shown that it is not good in the longrun, if ever.

In the end let's just agree to disagree because we won't get anywhere with a discussion like this since it is just a matter of opinion anyway.

I feel it is important to implement controls that are tailored to the gamer. Such as quick group searches for dungeons and other quests, along with the ability to pre-make special groups. As a veteran gamer I have seen he genre of MMOs evolve but never really change in concept. The more empowerment for the player to make decisions and the more ability to make choices with all the tools needed, makes for most gamers a more enjoyable experience. Then you have the simple gamers who don't really need all the extras because they are simple and are easily confused with more. So...if there was an option to open such advancements or hide them or even the ability to pick and choose which mechanics to choose from, would greatly open the world for all styles and experience of players. I personally prefer all tools at my disposal to choose from. This way I an tailor the game to my play style and be comfortable and enjoy my experience. Each player is Unique, the game should be tailored so that each player maintains that uniqueness for the sake of individuality. The fact that we are able to adjust our characters to how we see fit in the world, only adds to my claim. Not many like the simplicity of looking at another player and seeing the same garb or armor on them... Giving the open options for players to be able to have a choice in their direction of the game, i.e the grouping, is one among many steps which tethers a player to the game and gives them a sense of purpose and direction. Destiny is not made without purpose or direction. Salute

The Patriot - Salute

Sounds like a feature that would just get ignored. Like EQ2s was for years.

No automatic group tool PERIOD!

Yes, it sucks to not have a group for certain things, but its even worse having a group full of totally random people. And without the "trinity" you'll essentially automate groups that are like "LF4M zerk CoF P1 PING GEAR WHEN ANTER ORR KEK". It's a joke.

You dont need to choose players by class without the trinity.
You dont need to choose players by gear, or levels.
You automate this selection process for generally insignificant world content.

Trivialized social aspects of MMO's lead to games with little to no lasting power.
Trivialized always-available content leads to an MMO with no lasting power.

Thanks. I'm checking in on the forums and watching the videos and stuff. But RL is just kicking my tail. Separation from spouse, insulin pump issues with my kidlet, and various other challenges. But I'm good, just having to be not as active here as I wish.

Still waiting with bated breath for Landmark!

I think even if we now NEED LFG tools because of other games forcing it in and us being pretty much used to it you NEED make it less accessible.

For example; Make it so that you have to be in certain places to use the LFG, or make it so that there's an 'LFG bar' where you "post" and "answer" group calls and OH GOD PLEASE make it server-locked.
What lacks in most other MMOs is the fact that interaction is cut down to the people you see walk by you and you dont care, and your guildmates which you see when you go in groups to hunt down bosses or level up together. But that's pretty much it.
Character interaction is STILL fun, people STILL enjoy being social, we are social beings! But the free-access of multi-server 'click-it-whenever-I-want-to' LFG queues completely decimated the feel that you're a part of a community by just making it a chore that you need to fullfill or a number ticking down that you need to wait to get a group of people that you're never gonna meet again or care about them at all. I've seen on multiple MMOs that people STILL get excited when you get THAT tank or THAT hunter that does massive damage and is super smart about positioning. Why take away that feeling? Why not suddenly get THAT SAME priest that you've been getting for 2 weeks straight because he just happens to have your same gaming schedule? Maybe you don't know anyone that plays EQN but these 4 guildmates from <X Guild> keep getting you as a tank and they love you and end up inviting you to their guild, that could be a GREAT way to socialize and meet people.

After all it IS a game where people wanna get things done and they are either;
A) Gonna invite you to clear content with their guild in a really "Professional" way, being because you have the gear and they lack your particular role inside a party but don't really care for who you are.

B) Gonna invite you to the guild to chat with you because you're kinda nice but you guys are never gonna get serious stuff done until their main tank has a busy day IRL and you HAVE to be brought in.

Make us care, make us be involved. Want to queue up? Sure! Go to the bar and meet tens of other players trying to get content cleared in that same area! Talk about it, discuss the area, chill out while you wait. Maybe get the party going, hunt smaller stuff and keep the request up if you're still in need of a tank. Maybe on the way you'll meet someone else, or realize that the group didn't really need a tank, who knows!

I say this game has a really good "Let's just play it and find out!" sort of vibe going on, and waiting behind an icon that says you're a healer and wait for other 4 icons cross-server is much less appealing than actually going into a place and commiting to the fact that you're a skilled healer and meeting the people you're gonna be supporting.

Sorry for the long post by the way, it's just what I believe would make EQN a great and social game, without falling in the cliche'd and community destroyer multi-server trainwreck that are most MMOs out right now

You clearly put a lot of thought into this, and I don't doubt you have good intentions, but I have to poo-poo all of this for one simple reason: None of it is needed.

If a game is created such that the social aspects of the game are important, people know each other by name and they know who they want to group with and who they don't. Reputation is important in a game with a truly vibrant community, and EQ1 and UO were living proof that all the developer created tools in the world aren't necessary if you simply need to interact with the people around you.

Beyond that, none of this creates immersion. It's all very "real lifey" for lack of a better term. I don't want to be evaluating my potential group mates before I even group with them or feel the need to rate them afterwards. I enjoy the "risk" that comes with adding some random person that I know nothing about to my group. Sometimes, as hard as it is to believe, the negative experiences I've had in groups become the most memorable. I want to invite that crazy dwarf warrior I met in EQ1 to my group that insisted on pulling and then proceeded to pull ALL of Karnor's Castle, training just about everyone in the entire dungeon in the process. Yeah, it sucked, but it was absolutely hilarious at the same time. So much so that I remember it to this day as vividly as it was yesterday.

Please no match making. I think it is a terrible design decision. It's a community killer. It promotes anti-social behavior and ruins any sense of server community

I agree we'll agree to disagree. Clearly we see two very different games when viewing the ones quoted above. You and I may not be playing them but they're making money hand over fist with legions of players. That means everything to the developers and others take notice.

Ultimately these forums are a great place for us to beat our proverbial chests and bicker ideologies (fully admit guilt) at each other in opposition however they will have 0 difference on the outcome of this game heh. You and I are giant fans of an industry but truly hope for two very different games. Fair enough.

Also, on the issue of instant travel—it should probably be included for convenience's sake (or at least some type of expedited travel). However, it it's being included, it would be nice to incentivize people who don't choose to instantly port in. Perhaps giving them a special loot bag at the end of the instance with some gold and a chance at rare drops. Of course, if this happened it would almost ruin the point of having instant teleporting, because anyone in the group who didn't run over would be stuck twiddling their thumbs until the rest of the party arrived. So I'm not sure, honestly.

This seems like it would be more of use for instanced content, which I'm already not a fan of. But as long as communication is prominent in these LFG type raids I am fine with it... The way I see if, non-instanced content, such as rallying calls, could be a good way to meet people and make friends. Contested and non-contested content is such a touchy subject.

There are so many different skills that will be available.. choosing a group will be different as a character progresses... will someone hurt a group that is put together by a system designed for very basic needs? Can someone of a priest like class hurt a group severely if say they have decided to go for more damage output than healing? I don't have enough information yet to clearly create an idea for how this system should be but I do agree there should be one.

I have played all sides of this question. I have been in guilds, played games solo, and experienced a variety of grouping tools. Dungeon finders are a crap shoot, agreed. It is all a matter of the players you wind up with. I have been in good and bad groups, speed runs and long drawn out ordeals with multiple wipes.

For those who say it is not social I disagree. I have had amazing times and met new friends this way. It is how the player interacts with the tool not the tool itself. You could argue guilds are anti social in that they have their pre-formed groups and need not look to the community to fill gaps. But I digress, this question is about grouping not social behavior

I would like to see some kind of modified group finder. Maybe a virtual board, near the dungeon or in the nearest city, where you could post your LFG. "Pally, Wizard, and Cleric seek more to storm the Orc Stronghold. " A player could search through group listings and find one they like, click to respond to the group leader and ask for invite. And vice versa groups could search for individual players who have posted on the board and send them a tell. You could add all kind of search filters to help narrow down the field. Just my random thought.

There is always the tried and true method of standing in front of the dungeon entrance begging for a pick up. If lfg tags and channels are available by all means use them and stop shouting across the commons.

Just my two cents