How do you feel about modern concepts like guns and Ninjas in EverQuest Next?

Uhhmmm no. No guns, no ninja's. I'm pretty open to change but this... no.

Ninjas & Guns?
nowai.
kthxbai.

But to answer more seriously... I don't think you would be adding anything that hasn't been done by other games. Isn't EQN supposed to be set before the original EQ/EQ2? Lore wise how would you explain the loss of tech like guns?

I think that the core, and fundamental, issue here is that the original question is a highly Euro-Centric, Caucasian-representative, and even borderline racist in its precepts.

The concepts of "hashashin" are as old as the First Christian Crusades; and are barely modern. While the details may be different; the methods, techniques, and objectives of the Islamic (and later copycat Christian) Assassins and Shinobi were rooted in the same fundamental concepts of asymmetric warfare.

A single, unconventionally prepared, murderer can achieve a goal that dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of conventional military units could not accomplish.

Likewise, the history of espionage and intelligence are as older than even Sonshi's "The Art of War" and Chanakya's dictates on statecraft. Those two documents are simply some of the most succinct books to cover the topics.

Additionally, in a game that -already- has culture appropriation analogues of "Buddhist Monks" as in-canon narrative concepts; how is it not a matter of wanting to have your cake and eat it too when you say that you "want" monks; but "don't want" shinobi no mono within the same narrative.

That's like saying that you "want" Knights (since they were a real historical thing that existed), but "do not want" Paladins (since the Paladins was a name for Charlegmane's personal knights).

You're arguing semantics because you don't like some aesthetic element in one, that you are able to accept in the other. It's a flawed argument at its core.



Likewise with "fire arms"; the Chinese had gunpowder based weapons in development for a long time (the 10th century) before they reached middle ages Europe in the 13th century.

They're hardly a modern conceit; and to argue otherwise only blatantly shows the usually masked racism, and culture appropriating tendencies, of the Euro-centric cultures of the world.

Additionally it displays a fundamental lack of education and entertainment (as Marshall McLuhan said, they are the same; and anyone who argues otherwise, has a fundamental lack of understand about either) about world history actually occurred that influences and colours so-called modern 20th/21st century perceptions on this ancient technology.

To include monks as unarmed martial artists; and deny out of hand shinobi and firearms is the worst parts of culture appropriation and historical unintellectualism that has been repeating itself for more than four decades in the role playing gaming community.

Thrasher, what you say is bad, and you should feel really bad about saying it.

Civilizations can rise and fall. then be buried for thousands of years. If you have a believeable lore in place and you have really cool fun Ideas, I say go for it.

The Steam Punk theme does lend it's self to the Gnomes tinker's anyway, which could result with cool looking guns.

In real life I am taking KungFu; Pre-Heaven Power, Hsing YI, and Bagua, (Basically I am becoming a Monk). There are many, many fighting styles; There are so many different styles of kungfu through out China, Japan, South Korea and elsewhere. About Nijas = Yes.

The subjuct feeds into my thoughts in the previous race/class thread. .When I think of Monks (nijas) in EQN, I think every race can have their own style and forms and applications for the Monk Class. The ogre could have the straight forward and direct smash, crush, shoulder, knee, body slam attacks.
While a wood elf could sidestep oppoinates and use they're opponants energy against them. Using more indirect attacks. While Dark elf could use more trickery.

Since the fantasy realms is a leap of faith to begin with, and EQN is basically following the Star Trek Alternative reality path. I say do it.

Well if that's the case I would be more easily accepting of ninja / samurai and all the associated arts of war so long as there is some well defined group of people studying / teaching / using these techniques.

I agree, I think we have to look at this outside the box and see how it can fit and how it can change things in a negative way!

Lets just do Ninja Pirate Quest.

Dragons should drop rail guns.

Oh, need flying carpets too.

actually everything i have seen and been shown blows everything i have played "out of the water" and i have played alot of games.

so they asked us our opinion about female dwarfs and beards(I thought this was hilarious-they actually showed in the black box it was meant as a joke), but apparently it makes a grown man cry. they never said landscape was getting dumbed down they asked how powerful we want the tools too be and skill lever we would prefer, if you red the comments(all of them) you would actually see that we most likly will get options to switch between the 2(its what everyone wants) i agree with the Ogre/Monk remark however i do not see how making everyone be able to have everything makes them sell more more racial stuff it would be the other way around(if i want to be a wizard but i am an ogre and not allowed to be i would need to change my race, not if i am an ogre and allowed to be a wizard), also it makes no sense why that would matter to you as they need a way to make money caus they just made your game free and if you do not want to spend it you do not have to?.. Oh and the newest question yea we may end up being able to play a Ninja, a pirate, hell a samurai, so what your not being forced to play as it and as long as the dev team puts them in right i do not see the prob

If you can make it LOOK like it belongs, and there is decent lore backing up why or how its there, i dont see a reason why not. But it should at least make sense, so it would need those 2 things.

You can easily have 40 classes that all fill a niche role. What you can't do is justify a class that is more or less identical to another class in every aspect in terms of functionality, yet features more potential abilities.

Think about it, why would you roll a rogue if you could roll a ninja? The name alone would overbalance the player choice towards it. Not to mention you'd probably get all the same general features most people associate with rogues (stealth, sneak attack, etc.) in addition to some exaggerated representation of their mythical powers (run on water, vanishing in the blink of an eye, etc.).

Likewise for guns. At one point in history, guns were barely a match for skilled archers or crossbowmen. Next point in history they are making plate armor and archery obsolete. You can always balance it in game using the differences between the two, but why bother in the first place? For variety and flavor? Crossbows would give you that all the same.

Nothing like a modern gun certainly. Consider this though, The advantages and disadvantages of a bow and a gun. The mechanical difference between the two is one of propulsion and caliber of the ammunition.

A bow has very large ammunition, much larger than a gun would. The arrowhead is supported by the shaft, which gives it the penetration power needed to punch through armor and keep going. The arrow is fired via the snap of the bowstring, which in turn gets its energy from the strength of the one pulling it back. In a way, every bow and crossbow variant is simply a large slingshot. The advantage of this is the great amount of penetration provided by the large caliber ammunition. For the sake of argument, I will allow for the the larger surface area of an arrow granting it a much larger potential for enchantment. Magic arrows are fine and should be able to be crafted, indeed if you are considering guns I would say that it is a requirement to keep bows from becoming obsolete.

A gun has small ammunition, usually a piece of metal accelerated by an explosion. The bullet is supported only by its own velocity, which quickly disperses. This gives it greater initial punch than an arrow, but much less follow through. A bullet against a large opponent will quickly vanish into its mass, which is why the phrase 'You're only making it angrier' was created to describe handguns vs bears. Another advantage of the firearm is its relative ease of use, no need for large muscles to pull back an elastic band, just pull the trigger. A gun is certainly much more effective against smaller unarmored opponents. However, the potential to enchant bullets would be much smaller, giving arrows a distinct advantage when it comes to ammunition quality. Additionally, the firing mechanism for a gun is more complicated, requiring an explosion for every shot. This means that firing a gun will naturally be more expensive than firing a bow based on the amount of materials consumed per shot.

In the end, with proper balancing and concessions given to both sides, there could be a place for guns. I personally don't see the need to start the game with them, but I can understand the desire to add them. Instead, why not add cannons?

They would be technologically more fitting for the era, being much simpler than a gun. Additionally, they would generally be used for base defense and not for regular combat (Or so I think). Cannons would allow you to have the 'Gun' industry without all the messy business of guns themselves. Then, in the process of balancing the cannons and helping them find their place in the world, you could slowly scale down the size and introduce firearms.

Or something like that.

I -suppose- perhaps, tinkered style muskets -could- seem appropriate. However, for some reason I always felt the engineering/guns/rockets and stuff in Azeroth was out of place. For me, it seems even more removed from Norrath.

Even if it was included, to me, it just wouldn't fit. However, it's not a game breaker.

So no, I don't really want to see that stuff included. It invites the all too stupid Chuck Norris junk. It also sort of out dates Rangers/Archers. I'd like to see more of that sort, and more fantasy based.

If games didn't include modern concepts then all the Gnomes and their gadgets would not be in the game. I think of Gnomes as the Victorian Era SteamPunk race.

I voted for the 2nd option that it should be allowed if it fits the visual style and has appropriate lore. I would be opposed to blackpowder guns, but I'm not so against a Ninja type class.

I agree change can be a good thing. I'm almost tempted to say, 'Well we're already changing so much, **** it, lets trying new things'. But at the same time these changes dramatically affect the feeling of the setting and if for whatever reason it doesn't feel right can completely ruin immersion.

This said I'm feeling much more ... cautious, than I was about the race/class decision.

If guns and ninjas r added then its not a fantasy game anymore and my interest will go from I want to play this game to ill pass and keep playing swotr! Is this another joke by the mods this is ******* everquest not land of the ninjas and guns you wnt to be a ninja play a monk you want a gun bow or cross bow!!! This thread is a complete waste of time and should be removed ASAP and we should be given a new thread ASAP!!!! As a 10 year eq vet I am 100% insulted by this thread!!! And I will not play eq next if ninjas and guns r added I want fantasy not ninjas not guns I am filled with rage that this could even be brought up!!! Who ever came up with this idea needs to apologize to all of the eq vets like my self!!! No to ninjas no to guns this everquest I spit and /rude who ever came up with thread!!!

Definitely not a fan of the whole ninja/guns or modern theme. I love the fantasy theme and can see it being very powerful given a hidden world and explorable caverns etc.

Here's a though, why would you need a Ninja if you already have an assassin? I'm not saying no to Ninja, it's just a discussion point. I view an assassin in a very similar light as a ninja; they would dress the same, use very similar tactics etc.

When it comes to guns, what kind of guns are we talking about? Are we talking about personal weapons that certain players could use, or are we talking cannons for sieges. I'm more against personal guns, but I would be ok with a crafted cannon that could be used during sieges.

well i can see what your getting at, but thats why i said it depends on how they implement it. why would they make the ninja run on water lol. and my thought process come from if they can have a paladin cleric/warrior hybrid he can tank and heal comes with a little of both classes a ninja would be monk/rouge monk for fighting style but not everything like fd. and rouge for speed/silent moving but not backstab and such

Absolutely not. The concept of these round table questions is a bit disheartening I begining to think you guys are grasping at straws when it comes to ideas. EQ lore has done this game well to date keep following that same idea and build upon on.

Like others have stated Monks of EQ are the closest this game should come to ninjas. This isn't world of warcraft and this isn't warhammer. Our dwarves have never had guns and they still shouldn't.

Everything has been new to Norrath at some point, EQN is not going to be a repeat or EQ 1999 or Eq2 but the idea of this stuff I think is great! If given the right feedback and the right ideas submitted I don't see way this could not bring a new fun approach to the EQ franchise!

I member when God powers were new to Eq2 and people hated it at the start but then fell in love!