ZW Raid DPS, Lets see Parses.

I think you're underestimating your utility. Try pulling all of your utility spells off your hotbars (hearts, FD, rez, heal, buffs, debuffs) and play for a week and see how much you miss them. I'm not saying they're game breaking, but they do help. If you're a tinker, feel free to use any tinkered items you've made. Likewise self buffs are ok.

I'm not trying to troll, I'm perfectly happy with the necro's I raid with doing as much dps as they can. But if you can't see why sorcerors and predators can be resentful of your ability to dps well and at the same time provide other useful utility, then I think you're deluding yourself. We could break down sorceror/pred/summoner utility down spell by spell, but it's been done a gazillion times and I (like you) am tired of the argument. Even if you're not thrilled with necro utility, it's very easy to see it's much better than what we provide.

My original post was not intended to delve into this all again, but merely to correct what Jazuo said about the damage tiers. Apparently Brightstrider has seen a dev post I haven't that said necro's are intended to be tier 1 dps. I'd be interested in seeing that - I did a quick search but didn't turn anything up.

And now we've thoroughly derailed this thread, although I didn't see many people posting parses in it anyway.

Doh I forgot to talk about hearts - they are deffo some raid utillity

And I go back to my initial post....you don't talk about necro DPS anymore on these boards.
It's like fight club....
:smileytongue:

The Tiers were retracted and also were never official. As already stated the tiers are only brought up by the whiners and griefers who would rather get others nerfed than figure out how to play their own class properly (as to evidence of the retractions, just look through some of my old posts cause I can't be arsed linking this yet again).

This is exactly why posts about parsing are a bad idea, the concept is great but class envy outweighs everything else.

I did do a quick search on your posts, and all I found was this:
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=20056&query.id=0#M20056
Cut&Paste:
Quote from Moorgard

The relative damage rankings posted a while back were clearly stated not to be absolutes. They aren't true at all level ranges and in all circumstances or against every kind of opponent. They were posted as a general guideline only.
To parse a certain fight or two and say "Look, this other class that is supposed to do less damage than mine outdamaged me" is not indicative of a problem in and of itself. There are a lot of factors to take into account. The rankings were meant to indicate relative positions over the long haul, not in every single encounter.

We have access to combat data across all servers, levels, and group sizes, and we use it to look for cases where classes are performing as a whole either noticeably above or below expectations and will continue to make adjustments as necessary.
===========================
Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard
Game Designer, EverQuest II
This is the same post I was talking about earlier. Exactly where in there does he say the damage tiers are inaccurate, or being retracted? What he does say is people misconstrued the damage tiers as absolutes - that a tier 2 class should never out damage a tier 1 class. That's obviously wrong, but it does not mean the damage tiers themselves are incorrect.
I doubt posting about parses is going to get you nerfed, if you're performing higher than intended according to their data they will adjust you as Moorgard clearly states. If you are out of balance though, it may cause more people to roll necro's, bringing more attention to it. So yeah, if you think you're overpowered that would be the only reason not to post parses. As IT already said, there are parse posts in assassin and wizard forums and they are several pages long. No nerf bat yet.
Edit: btw, I parsed 1356k extDPS in DT last night zonewide. Since our raid force is definitely not uber, I think that's pretty respectable and shows I know how to play my class decently well. I can do without the personal attacks calling me a whiner and a griefer that doesn't know how to play my class. I'm also not necessarily calling for a nerf on necro's. All I'm saying is there is something wrong when a class with much more utility is providing equivalent dps as classes without that utility. If SOE wanted to solve this inequality by bumping up predator/sorceror utility I'd be perfectly happy with that.
Message Edited by whytakemine on 01-08-2007 07:14 PM

/applause

Well done you managed to troll through all 261 posts I've made and came up with the one that you think supports your argument. There is another post that exists where one of the Devs effectively retracted the tiers saying that they were a very rough guide for there use only and were not intended for anything else.

I also was not personally attacking you, calling you a stupid [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would be a personal attack, stating that the only ones who troll others parse posts to make baseless comments is a generalisation and if you choose to take is an attack then clearly you have a guilty conscience.

Yep I guess if the Assassin has more time he can search through every Dev post to find the one that says they wished they never posted the tiers because people are misinterpreting the intent of the original post.
Message Edited by KBern on 01-09-2007 09:59 AM

I personally challenge everyone who says we are over powered and DPS too much to play us... they will quickly learn that our DPS is earned... there is NO WAY we can send pet and kick back to a nice book and maintain a high DPS, we must be on the ball at all times, rez, hearts etc....... its a lot of work and as such when we do parse high no one in raid ever complains of our efforts.

I did a test on the request of my guild ranger and used my mage pet and renamed him to a name other than my own, while in the caster DPS and my personal DPS without pet assistance is 8-900ish. Master mage pet and master buffs with AA points in INT and mage pet respectively was pulling 5-700 tops. Shorter fights faired far far worse. These numbers were also while in Courts.

As far as parsing I am also consistantly behind our guild assassin except when my situational spells or nameds fights come up and the fight is longer than a minute and then I rock them too. Maybe the problem is because we are game spec'd for longer fights, and most raid zones are longer fights it appears we are overpowered but I think other classes could easily adjust their personal DPS if they looked at spell order and what exactly they are using.

I searched on all post by you with "tier" anywhere in the post. No, I didn't spend a lot of time, but it seems to me if the post exists as you claim that should have found it. The only two threads that came up are this one and the one I linked.
It's silly to try and rephrase your original post now, since everyone can easily see it. Here, I'll quote it for you again:

So according to you, anyone who mentions the tiers is a whiner and a griefer who doesn't know how to play their class. Sounds like a personal attack to me.

Huh? Who said your dps isn't earned? All dps classes have to work hard to do max dps.

I thought we were talking about epics. Heroic mobs die so fast anyway they're kind of worthless to parse. Even the nameds rarely last more than 30s if you've got just 1 competent dps.

A personal attack mentions a name, a generalization mentions a group. I am not being "silly" or "rephrasing" just trying to help you understand the English language.

CADD wrote: I personally challenge everyone who says we are over powered and DPS too much to play us... they will quickly learn that our DPS is earned... there is NO WAY we can send pet and kick back to a nice book and maintain a high DPS, we must be on the ball at all times, rez, hearts etc....... its a lot of work and as such when we do parse high no one in raid ever complains of our efforts. I did a test on the request of my guild ranger and used my mage pet and renamed him to a name other than my own, while in the caster DPS and my personal DPS without pet assistance is 8-900ish. Master mage pet and master buffs with AA points in INT and mage pet respectively was pulling 5-700 tops. Shorter fights faired far far worse. These numbers were also while in Courts. As far as parsing I am also consistantly behind our guild assassin except when my situational spells or nameds fights come up and the fight is longer than a minute and then I rock them too. Maybe the problem is because we are game spec'd for longer fights, and most raid zones are longer fights it appears we are overpowered but I think other classes could easily adjust their personal DPS if they looked at spell order and what exactly they are using.
CADD and SARK /Applause!
We are mainly DoT. We cannot do massive crazy dps all the time. We have to cast 100% of the time, have our specials up and have a long fight. I raid with some amazing people & if they want the fight to end qucikly, they burn it down so fast I do not have an option for the dps that can be possible!

Long Epic encounters are the best (not super long, just not short) DoT + Specials + Good INT + Raid/Group Buffs+ Raid Debuffs+ Skills+ AA's Kos + AA's EoF + Time + procs + Miracles/Blessings+Casting Order (yes even adornments) = Necro :smileywinkPS. End of Story.

um so you can get a guild dps of over 3million points in 30seconds?

and I am talking about Inner Sanctum those blood guards have about 3-3.1million hit points and make for good judgement on dps ability verses... say the first 2 named in there which are a joke.

If the post you mean was Moorgard's response to my old thread about player misconceptions over the so-called 'DPS tiers', it's easier for me to find.
People just don't seem to want to understand that the entire game isn't balanced just around raid encounters. Or just around solo. Or group. It's balanced around all of those playstyles. And 'DPS tiers' is a horse so dead they can't even get glue out of it any more.

lol yep, that is it exactly.

Spot on, thanks Deila

Are we starting to understand why starting a parse thread on this forum was not a great idea yet, malignx?
'Who is the happiest of men? He who values the merits of others and in their pleasure takes joy, even as though 'twere his own'

Parse threads... Just Say No!

there's another reason i think these parse threads are unproductive. i don't think that the necros who post here with their uber dps are your average necro, as far as quality of spells, gear, pets, etc. goes. for the longest time i couldn't figure out what i was doing wrong. i'd parse my dps and it wouldn't be anywhere near as high as what most necros posting were claiming to get, even though i was using all the tips and tricks that i'd picked up from reading the boards. then it dawned on me that those with the high dps are raid-geared and fully mastered or close to it. i'm not. a couple of masters, a few adept iii, the rest adept i and average gear -- i have 1 item that procs. and i would wager that what i have is closer to what the average necro has.
so what happens? the average necro stops by the boards, sees how incredibly high the dps parses are and thinks they suck at the class; and the non-necro stops by, sees how incredibly high the dps parses are and thinks necros are over-powered.
my rule of thumb now is this: am i doing more damage than the healer and the meat shield? do the mobs drop quicker when i'm in the group? am i contributing to the success and survival of the group? if i can answer yes to those 3 questions then i consider myself to be doing alright.

on a side note, i remember being in ct in a group with a warlock and him lighting off a spell that killed the entire group we were fighting before i had a chance to finish casting my aoe. holy cow! that's amazing, i thought. and i was a bit jealous for a fraction of a second. but then i remembered why i play a necro. it's not for the dps. it's because i love the class and all that it can do.

well put.

Most people posting here are raid equiped/mastered out. but its still not our best we still try for more and it shows what can be achieved. I know that sounds trite but t5/t6 I had maybe 4 masters total if that and no fabled gear but necros then still could high dps. I struggle against eqiually equiped predators but again its all based on the type of fight and how group structure is.