ZW Raid DPS, Lets see Parses.

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by ARCHIVED-Colossaltitan, Dec 15, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-IllusiveThoughts Guest

    this attitude isn't really neccessary, I've had the wizard parse thread open for months with 10 pages of parse postings, not one person has attempted to use the thread as a *nerf the wizzies* post, in fact lots of good can come out of it, showing buffs on a toon for the zone parsings, group set ups, it also shows historical data, such as how a class is doing through all the changes.
    I think parse threads should be on all the class forums, because then when people want to see how they can do or compare against other players, they can see if they're on par or if they need improving.
  2. ARCHIVED-KBern Guest

    Yes but w/o getting back into the DPS tier discussions, wizards are supposed to the mythical T1 while necros are not. So when people see necros doing X dmg and some other class not, you get back to the nerf necro posts, and we have had enough nerfs to our spell lines and pets due to just such discussions.
    I just don't talk about it anymore.
  3. ARCHIVED-Fewson Guest

    Actually,

    There is a certain validity to the argument of not going public if your class is overperforming.

    I am honest, I know the top DPS that a well played necro is, and no I don't think it is properly balanced.

    That aside, since that is a DEV issue...
    Every class should have a parse thread because it does make those who read it examine their DPS and if it seems
    to fall short they have a place to pose questions and seek advice from others in class that are doing more.

    I have a Necro alt, and as one necro whispered to me is that top DPS depended especially on one set of abilities.(something I didn't explore since I still play my wizard 95% of the time)

    What I have seen all Necros do that are high in the parse is to use their Mage pet not the scout pet.

    Also looking at realtime parses they often seem to jump up a few hundred DPS at the end of a fight, not sure if that is some Necro
    sacrifice pet thing or not.(Can you tell I really don't play my necro.lol)

    Necro's have to joust their pet which is more onerous than a scout having to joust, so it is one skill set they have to learn that sorcerers don't.

    But class parsing thread will improve overall class DPS which is good as long as you don't get hit by the nerf bat when SOE see overall Necro DPS go up.

    Message Edited by Fewson on 12-18-2006 01:40 PM
  4. ARCHIVED-MickeysIce Guest

    Yes necros who want to be top dps have to work hard, but as stated above, all classes do, to my knowledge there isnt a class in the game that has an autopilot button or a "I wanna watch South Park" mode, all classes have to work all aspects and fine tune their approach to the situation at hand. Now the part about why other necros use the scout pet that Isodora said is kinda buggin me too and I dont want you to take this the wrong way Iso, so please dont. You kinda seem to come off with a holier than thou or if you dont do it my way its because you are lazy or stupid and that is far from the truth. I use the mage pet when their are groups, or an aoe requiring jousting techniques, however when there is negligible aoe and/or a single target mob, I like to use my scout pet simple as that, its not a matter of I dont want to be bothered with jousting so I use my scout pet. Also I have found that when using lifeburn after that first lifetap, slap consumption on your scout pet and its a bit better than the mage pet as far as health return. Of course its all for naught if the healers arent keeping you up so the real credit goes to them. So once again I just wanted to make the point that although you are a knowledgeble, skilled player there are others who may use methods different from your own and still achieve impressive numbers. This wasnt intended to be a flame, just a defense of anybody who decides to ever bring out their scout pet for a raid mob :)
  5. ARCHIVED-Fewson Guest

    On a slight tangent, as a person who mostly is looking at the class from the outside(I don't play my necro enough yet to conside being in the inside).
    I think lifeburn is awesome for you. Not because it even makes necro DPS higher(I have my own problem with that.lol)
    But conceptually it is a spell with desirable DPS for necro that makes them depend on another class to save them from what is otherwise death.
    Kinda like the person who falls backward trusting the person standing behind them to catch them. Adds tension and pleasure when it works out.
    Lifeburn is a fun spell even from watching it on the outside.
    Back to Necro parsing...,
  6. ARCHIVED-MickeysIce Guest

    I totally agree with ya there, I dont really care how they balance the classes as long as they are balanced in a way that makes them all challenging/fun to play, I like knowing that I have on the ball healers that have my back when I lifeburn. Trust me my first main was a warlock and Im not even going to get into that but it is good to see that they are at least making some steps in the right direction for the sorceror class, from what I have heard from other raiding sorcerors anyway. Another point, there will be times when necro dps drops off a bit and this is not necessarily because they are slacking, the whole mission is taking down the mob and if that means I have to spot heal, rezz another crucial member of the team so be it, Im not gonna be crying at the end if Im not #1 on the parse as long as we didnt wipe so I think the interplay and required coordination between the classes is what makes an encounter challenging and worth spending time on, although I do get a little happy in the pants when I parse high too :)
  7. ARCHIVED-Sarkoris Guest

    /Wave Malign - Najena represent.
    The key things I think that help to top dps parsers are: group makeup, quality of pets and ca's (master over ad3 over ad1 etc), aa's (you have to love lifeburn), gear (proc gear, high int etc) and most importantly knowledge of your class.
    I will get some zone wide raid parsers from this weeks raids (cleared logs at the weekend). I don't parse as high as some of those that have posted, usually around 2k on named and 1.2-1.4k zonewide depending on how heavy the AOE action is (/shudder HOS). Sadly the only master pet I have is the tank pet, and I have been slacking off on AA's (59 total).
    Lets get down to specifics. What AA's paths have you taken. Be specific as in Int 4-4-4-8 etc - not just int line. Which EOF AA's have you taken or intend to take and why. What gear do you use to increase your DPS. What pets do you use (always mage regardless of aoe, scout on occassion etc) and what quality are they. What is the quality of yoru archlich (to help work out proc damage).
    What is your cast cycle. Do you debuff to help the raid out or consider that someone else's job and purely cast offensive spells. Do you only cast duisease based spells for the lich proc ? What range do you stand from mobs, up close and personal to fire off a life tap aoe occassionally and so your backed off mage pet doesnt have to return so far, or max range and ping away with your dots. Does your cast cyxcle differ from trash mobs to named ? Do you only stay on the MA target or tab over to put your swarm pets on another mob ?
    I'll start and add more detail once I can logon and verify a few things.
    KOS - AA's. Not sure and eq2 players is borked atm. Pretty sure its str and int line. Exact numbers not really sure.
    EOF - 20 in rotting - 1 in final ability (lifeburn). 3 points in grave calling line (mage ability).
    Proc Gear: Grizzle's walking stick, godking staff and collection earring (name escapes me).
    Casting order - long dot, short dot, lifetap, possibly darkness or debuff for the lich proc, swarm and aoe pet timed depending on aoe - early if no aoe, post aoe to maximise life expectancy otherwise. aoe dot and aoe lifetap if many targets and no risk of aoe, or continue standard cycle, undead tide and lifeburn thrown in on named.
    Sark.
  8. ARCHIVED-Everglow Guest

    Hrm... ~2k parse, with A3 pet, and 59AAs... makes me wonder how much higher one can parse...
  9. ARCHIVED-Imperishable Guest

    All this talk about parsing really makes me laugh :smileyvery-happy:. Many eq2 players ask which class is the best dps ect... One thing that isn't brought up is the player makes the toon the toon doesn't make the player. Everyone knows a well played toon can out dps a totally geared up noobster that just doesn't perform well. Everyone has seen it where they may be top of the dps list and the same class with about the same gear may be 500-1k less dps zone wide. This is the key to anyone trying to parse tops. If you cant play it shows. I do believe as a decent raiding necro with eof being released you should be shooting for on average 1,500-2,100 dps zone wide. Anything extra and you have played the zone perfect. Im not saying many don't do higher then that, but if you really are looking for a number per zone day in and day out that's about right.

    Imperishable-70 necro/92 aa/70 carp./103 tinker
    Heka-70 guard/59 aa/70 prov/289 transmuter
    Nakazato-70 bruis/50 aa
  10. ARCHIVED-Fewson Guest

    Having parses or knowing what people in your class do against specific mobs and or zones can help. I wouldn't laugh at it. When you say the player makes the toon...it depends on what you mean by that.
    Let's break that thought down.(with a DPS centric view)
    Does the player go AFK during the fight, is drunk, watches TV more than the fight..then yeah they will suck.
    Have they figured out the min/max AAs for their playstyles and people they group with? No? Then sure they will lose DPS
    Have they figured out the best casting sequence, and know what zones/mobs will AOE their pet?
    Can they keep their pet alive and doing DPS?
    Do they know when and where to do all of the utility aspects of their toon?
    Now here are the toon/raid aspects outside of player skill:
    Is the raid setup ideal for the class, have the supporting classes slacked and not provided the support for your DPS?
    Key spells mastered? (Adds 10-15% to DPS)
    How good is the gear (To me the least important, it's nice, but not the decisive factor)
    So on what would be called skill, all that means is they are intentive while playing, learns what AA and casting sequence max DPS, and control their pet, and if people post the ideal cast sequences and AA setups then they don't even have to learn that. So yes posting information in the forums can decrease the amount of skill needed to do well. It leaves the skill factor way down on the list, and isn't just something to be laughed at.
    They just need to not be drunk and to have read the forums IF the forums spill the beans on AA setups and casting sequence. The only finessse left is making sure pet lives and that it nukes, and mix in the utility aspects. So the knowledge part of the "player skill" can be trivilized by people in forums helping give them that knowledge. Parses do help on that, as well as people laying out raid setups, their AA setups, etc.

    Message Edited by Fewson on 12-19-2006 10:11 AM
  11. ARCHIVED-Colossaltitan Guest

    Its too tough to judge which class is truely 'best' for DPS. As people have said, you don't know what exactly everyone is doing, whenever I am raiding I'm there 100% I play to raid, hell, I live to raid, so when its raid time that is all I'm doing. You'll never find a parse with me slacking.

    Point being, not everyone plays like that, not everyone is geared/spelled/playing ability all equal. For all we know, Rangers could be the top DPS, but all of them have just sucked!

    Onto Malign...
    Malign is Fully Mastered (short of Dooming Darkness & Swarm of Bats as they don't exsist on PVE or in the game at all).

    KOS AA's: INT:8/4/4/8, STR:4/4/4/8. STA:5.
    I believe thats currently the best setup, Empower Servant and Implode are all but useless, as are the limits on the other starters (Shockwave, Animist's Transference, Distracting Strike).

    EOF AA's:
    Rotting: 21 Points
    Pacts: 3/5/3/4(Rez)/5(Consumption)/1Blood Pact.
    Gravecalling: 5Mage/3Grave

    Malign's Gear is basically almost wearing every piece of proc gear there is (my BP is relic although I run around with Netherworld cuz its sexah).
    Theres very little room for improvement as far as KoS/FD goes. I'd take Matron Boots, Clockwork Menace Forearms, Breath of the Destroyer, Matron Wrist.

    My casting order most definetly varies completly on the encounter, whether it AOE's or not, multi-mob encounter, single target, one thats needing debuffs, one that doesn't. 90% of the time, I'm purely offensive, and the only debuff I'll use will be Loathsome Mark, I don't use Drawing of Souls often because a) mob attribute debuffs cap very easily, and b) its not necessary even if they weren't capped.

    Very rarely am I actually 'assisting' the main assist, too, most of the time in my targeting cycle (on encounter mobs) you'll notice that I'm on this mob, then that mob, then that mob, cyclying dots on each one, in between (depending on health) sending Swarms to either MA's target, or the true epic in an encounter, whatever is best for the time, also, I'll be nuking the MA's target w/ Dooming Darkness, Death Rot(yes, I use it over Word of Force, so should you!), Abate Life(m2 choice).

    Generally when raiding on Malignx, my usual group is, Troubador (Playing AoA, sadly doesn't hit PoM often), Wizard (Sadly doesn't hit Frigid Gift often), Fury, Brigand, Ranger.

    Kinda a bleh group overall, it took me ages to convince our Troubador to use AoA because it was claimed to be "nerfed" well, oh well, Lol. Now if I could just get him to consider using PoM uh, every time its up. =p

    I haven't had to worry about it lately, as I've said guilds had me on my Warden.

    I still haven't been able to raid once really since EOF on Malign, when I get to, parses inc, =/.
    Message Edited by Colossaltitan on 12-19-2006 01:51 PM
  12. ARCHIVED-Geoff77 Guest

    I wouldn't get too impressed with parse numbers until you know what the parser is set at. I can "double" my dps by changing settings as to when combat ends as far as the parse considers.
  13. ARCHIVED-Fewson Guest

    True. But if people parsing provide damage and dps, then one can see the validaity of the DPS. Pet pulling changes length of encounters and lower extended DPS, but not DPS. I usually use in act {NAME3} {DAMAGE} | {DPS} and I sort by DAMAGE not DPS.
    Zonewide DPS is a different issue and older versions of ACt had major problems in calculating it.
  14. ARCHIVED-Colossaltitan Guest

    The appropriate way of calculating DPS is sort by EXT DPS, and saying "I can do blah blah blah" thats great, I can parse 9k on Pantrilla, but I'm speaking of Zone-Wide parses, if we go off single target, we could say, well, this pull I had a full undead-tide and LIfeburn, (15 minutes goes by) and this pull I had a ....

    Get my point here? :p
  15. ARCHIVED-Everglow Guest

    Both zone-wide parsing and single-fight parses are used as judges for DPS. If a class was able to parse 9k on one fight every 15 minutes, but only 1.5k zone-wide, would you still consider that class to be balanced?
  16. ARCHIVED-Colossaltitan Guest

    Ask yourself, what guild pulls a mob, kills it, afk's for 15 minutes, then comes back?

    I can parse 10k easy I'm sure every 1hr with God Abilities and my 15/5min spells.

    See my point?

    Zone Wide on the normal raid, wipes, pulls, trash, everything included is the only thing that is what we should really go off of.
  17. ARCHIVED-Everglow Guest

    You misread my post entirely, but you raise another interesting point.
    Let me see you parse 10k on a single named fight in KoS or EoF. I think it'd be fun to see.
  18. ARCHIVED-Pro Guest

    Let me raise another "interesting" point. Why would we care about a wizard demanding stuff in the necro board when all he obviously does is trying to give an attitude.
  19. ARCHIVED-Everglow Guest

    There's no attitude at all. I legitly want to see proff is all. :smileyvery-happy:
  20. ARCHIVED-Colossaltitan Guest

    Thats Proof*

    And, any Necromancer who knows how to maximize undead tide (which is tough to do on some raids) but the raids that you can, lifeburn, full udt(out for a full minute) hit Ro's Fury while your at it, and if you really wanna get fancy, use Incinerate.

    Hell, before EOF with just a full UDT on a 3 or so minute fight, Malign would be at a solid 3.5k dps, add in the other stuff, and you'll easily be up there.