Zerkers moving towards bottom of DPS pile :(

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Locut, Jun 22, 2005.

  1. ARCHIVED-pharacyde Guest

    Hi,
    Well I think the most people are complaining about their dps in other classes are ignorant ..
    1. I dont do much dps said the paladin with a one hander ...
    2. My dps sucks says the monk with no adept III's
    3. The bruiser is pissed when a berserker with all adpet III's for attacks spells beats him ...
    4. ...
    Why do berserker have to pay their dps for the ignorance of some people who whine about it ?
    When I started my berserker, I saw that my dps was very poor, under 100 dps. I started to work on getting higher dps. So I focused on STR and upgrading my attack spells to adept III. Still even then Bruisers and Monk did more dps then me. I was around 150 dps then. So I kept trying to find better ways to do more dps. And then one day I started out different weapons and also upgraded my str a bit more to hit 200+ self buffed. And suddenly I was able to out dps any fighter in riads. I did 200 dps or more.
    What I am trying to say, is that a normal berserker doesn't do more damage then a normal bruiser/monk. A good berserker doesn't do more damage then a monk/bruiser. A berserker who worked his [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] off to get his STR up to 200+ self buffed and a very good weapon beats a normal monk/bruiser.
    So now other classes start being a bit more willing to work your dps and dont think it's a gift from god SoE ... Cause that is what you guys are asking now, PLZ SoE we are lazy give us dps as it was stated in the manual ... Djees where is the fun in the game ... I was soo happy when I could prove a berserker could do more damage then the average monk. Balance ... Compare the average monk to the average berserker and then start whining ...
    Sybryn lvl 50 berserker / Vexia lvl 42 warlock / Askuz lvl 40 templar / Pharacyde lvl 23 Guardian
    PS : oh yeah I played alot of classes and I know why monks do dps ... but that's fo you to figure it out, as I did for my berserker
  2. ARCHIVED-Eyes_of_Truth Guest

    Thats very cool that you managed to do that, but the key problem is this, you art following the golden rule in eq2, your acheytype is your primary function, your class is your secondary function, and your sub-class further defines your secondary function with a few SMALL additions from your counterpart's sub-class.
    Primary role of the following archetypes:
    Fighter = Protecting weaker defensed archetypes and aggro managment
    Priest = Keep fighter alive and make sure group doesnt die, by way of healing, and increase their stats (buffs)
    Scout = Use physical attacks to damage your foes, disarming traps (needs higher importance imo)
    Mage = Use magical attacks to damage your foes, and increase group's stats

    Now when you choose your class, your secondairy ability emerges.
    Fighters: all will contune to ahve same base HP (affected by stamina) and same taunting power, with different 2ndary effects on their taunt
    <looking for more ideas in fighter combat utility along with scouts>
    Warrior = Heavy mitigation with armor, ability to tank scout mobs the best, and the ability to guard your allies from harm, medium dps in comparison to other fighters
    Crusader = Medium mitigation with armor, heavy ability to resist spell damage, ability to tank mage mobs the best, and ability to buff and protect allies with wards, lowest dps in compairison to other fighters (but still beating out the top priest)
    Brawler = Light mitigation with armor, high avoidance chance, ability to tank fighter mobs (that bypass mitigation) best, slight DPS improvment over other fighters (because of the lack of a defensive hand held aka shield or some other device to increase their defensive paramiters) and ability to lower group member's hate gain
    Mages: all will have the same base nuke, just of different resist type, and each gets a set of abilties that they do the best, but the other mages can also perform
    Sorcerer = Heaviest spike damage, average mage fire nuke plus seprit nuke that does alot of ice damage at a hgh power cost. fire/ice buffs, medium damage dots(lower mobs spell avoided aka complete resist chance), a power granting skill that stuns them. Weakest summoned swarm pets. Single target mezz for high power cost and long reuse, and aoe mezz that stuns them for durration.
    Summoner = Average mage magic based nuke and buffs, Heaviest DOT damage(debuff attacted to them that cripple a mobs magical defenses), a power summoning shard (no hp cost), and a earthen pet to tank for them, and supieror summoned swarm pets. Single target mezz for high power cost and long reuse, and aoe mezz that stuns them for durration.
    Enchanter = Average mage mental based nuke and buffs, medium DOT damage, best power regeneration (breese), single target fast cast, cant be interupted mess that costs low power, group mess that while costing alot of power, doesnt stun the enchanter. Medium damage from swarmpets. Augmentation spell that increases target's CA/Spell damage by 15-25% + haste.
    Scouts: all will have same basic flank attack that lowers the targets atributes differently. < i need more ideas form people for combat utility for rogues and preds!>
    Predator = Highest spike damage from single skills (shadowbalde), snares that also lower target's avoidance, dot debuffs that lower target's agility. <insert any ideas for predator combat utility here>
    Rogue = Medium spike damage from single strikes(back stab), debuffs that greatly lower's target's armor, debuff that lowers target's strength and stamina, single target mess (be it by looks or by mugging), aoe melee attack with short reuse timer <and im outa ideas here, please help me! need more combat utility for rogues!>
    Bard = no extra physical attacks other than the scout generic flank attack (bard's lowers mental resists), medium daamge mental DD, medium dmage mental based group dot song (would bea nice addition imo) and group song buff that increase each group member's CA/Spell damage by 20-30% + attack haste. Group power regen song. <think this makes bards rockin, but if anyone ahs more ideas for them also gladely needed!>
    Priests: all would have same direct heal power:heal ratio and ammout, but each classes heal also cures a type of alliment.
    Cleric = Reactive heals that heal when target is struck, divine damage nukes that deal double damage on undead <proposed, not currently of course> best mitigation buffs of the priests, has reverse daamge shields that heal players attakcing the mob. Debuffs target's AC and arcane ressits and Stamina. Can wear heavy armor <later on atleast>, their direct heal cures arcane and trauma
    Druid = Regeneration heals that provide the best power: heal ratio of the priest class's special heals because it takes time to work, best avoidance buffs, damage shields that hurt attacking foes, poison dot (instect swarm), and ice nukes. Debuffs target's Avodance and elemental resists and agility. their direct heal cures elemental and trauma.
    Shaman = Wards that protect the target from alot of spiked damage, slighltly less power:heal efficant as clerics reactive or druids regeneration because it is all up front protection, buffs (i would call them Seals of the ---- line of spells, aka Seal of the Ancients) increases targets spell avoidance and mitigation. Debuffs target's CA damage, slows target's attack speed, and lowers target's strength. Their direct heal cures noxious and trauma
    <optional idea>
    Do like they had in the beggining of beta, where they each had a ward, reactive, and regeneration, but some classes we allow better than others.
    cleric = Best reactive, medium regenration, worst ward
    druid = best regeneration, medium ward, worst reactive
    shaman = best ward, medium reactive, worst regeneration
    <keep in mind that is optional and i know why some would NOY want it to be that way, just throwing that out there>
    I am trying to keep their core roles intact, and add definition by adding secondairy effects. Secondairy effects, like an enchanter's breeze for instance, are NOT your characters primary function, and should never exceed said function in importance. The Secondairy functions are ment to complement and increase the primary functions of the group. (likepower regen healping healing and damageing, or bard/encahnter's attack boosting spells increasing groups damage)
    Toodles!
    Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on 07-12-2005 01:02 PM
  3. ARCHIVED-Laereneth Guest

    When the dps goes out the window, the tanking ability of the zerk will also. Right now, our claim to fame is our ability to hold agro. We don't have heals, we don't have wards, we don't have the higest mitigation buffs. What we do have, is one of the best agro generating tanks due to dps. So what will be our nich once the dps gets nerfed?
    We'll see, but I foresee all those dps classes that are complaining about fighter dps, will next be complaining that they can't use their dps becuase the newly nerfed fighters can't maintain agro. If they're going to nerf our dps, they need to double or triple our taunt agro.
    Bjoern
  4. ARCHIVED-Eyes_of_Truth Guest

    All tanks should hold aggro the same. Im hoping thatis implementied in the combat revamp, as aggro control is part of fighter's archetypal role. Just lke healing, it shuld be equill across the 3 classes (direct heals that is)
    Berserker should be no better and no worse at holding aggro than any other fighter. While how they Tank can varry greatly, the taunting # is a constant varriable.
    IMO aggro from damage ability shouldnt be a big enough differance with the fighter class to "need to have a high dps to maintain aggro", or else the best "taunters" in the game would be Predators and sorcerers lol.
    Ask for a better overall fighter taunt system boost. I think they need it. Granted that some classes seem excellent a keeping aggro currently, some (either by player flaw or class defect) do not hold aggro equilly, which is part of the "all fighters can do their core role equilly) bit. They need to amke taunting equill accross the board on fighters, add class and sub-class defining extras on the taunt, like a small damage boost for berserker, small damage reduction to guardian's target, small self heal for palad, small disease damage life tap for shadowknight, small avoidance boost for monks, and small damage increase for bruiser. Allthese little effects would be a mini-effect tact on to your taunt, to add diversity.
    Well hope you liked this idea...
    Toodles!
  5. ARCHIVED-RexTenebrarum Guest

    Eyes.. I do believe you post your ideas with the best intentions, but commenting on a class you haven't even played isn't giving you any credebility or support for them. I'm refering to this post where you say which classes you have and play. Although I now better understand your bias towards mages , it doesn't explain how you can comment on things you haven't even seen in game. Don't take this as a flame on your level, but most subclasses really come into their own past 40.. and will continue to grow and diversify when they raise the level cap to 60. But at the same time that is also my fear.. If they make the subclasses too much alike (based on archtype) , there will be no incentive to play a different subclass as they will all be the same. One of my alts is a bruiser (lvl40) and will probably hit 50 in a week or 3, so is this char doomed? Will it play the same as my 50 zerker after the changes (aside from some visual fluff) ? As you can tell I prefer the offensive role over the tanking, so why would I be pushed in a 'tanking only' role with the combat changes? I have a medium level warlock/ranger/mystic/necro and brigand but they don't fit my playstyle very well.. I like to play them from time to time but it's not the same feeling I get when I play my fighters (brigand is the exception :) )..and this feeling has nothing to do with DPS or CA's. I can't explain, but I'm sure others have the same thing when playing their scout or priest or mage..I know people that play the 6 different subclasses of the same archtype, but they refuse to play another archtype... do they need to be punished becasue they don't want to pick another archtype?
    Scouts and mages will still feel different after the combat changes I think (spread out over 3 groups on chart), but I'm afraid priests (1 group) and fighters (2groups) are going to be too much alike to hold the interest of people and make them want to level different subclasses of the same archtype..
    But I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. I've had a great time in this game and as MG said.. If I don't like the way it is going I can always leave..
    PS. I agree on your other post about the test server..
  6. ARCHIVED-caine71 Guest

    Exactly my point as well, the reason us Berserkers are doing more dps on occasion than Rangers and some other classes is because we geared our Berserker that way!! If I group with a Ranger that knows what he is doing I rarely out dps him still. Also, did any of you take into consideration that some race/class combinations will do more dmg than others for crying out loud! An Ogre Berserker who focuses on str is going to do more damage than a Halfling Ranger most times. I'am so fed up with people whining about my class, what would you prefer, a freakin damage sponge that just stands there and relies on the other group members to kill the named mob? Also, SOE's response to the class descriptions not being an actual depiction of how the class should play, but rather a lore description, is a cop out plain and simple. SOE refuses to admit their major mistakes until months later if at all. I'm also tired of you frekin trollers. I never go into the other class boards and scream for them to be nerfed. If I do make any comments, it ones of empathy, I would never agree that a class needs nerfed. Why can't SOE understand that some people play their classes different than others and therefor get different results? I guess I'am asking for too much, god forbid SOE use logic.
  7. ARCHIVED-Daunte Guest

    I agree, there have been plenty of times when I'm in a group and I'm spamming my skills/combat arts while the scouts in my group aren't even using their skills and I barely outdamage them, yet they would complain that this game isn't balanced. The truth of the matter is that these scouts could easily outdamage me if they only used there skills instead of auto-attacking throughout the fight.
    Message Edited by Daunte on 07-14-2005 10:08 AM
  8. ARCHIVED-Nosnemi1 Guest

    I have so much to say about this..but I would only rehash what ahs been said before. My only complaint is that if your being out dps’d by a zerker its probably because the parser takes into account all damage and zerkers do AOEs a lot just like a warlock out dps’s a Wizzie when several targets are in mob but a single target mob all Wizzie DPS.

    If that isn’t it your playing your scout class like a noob.

    I am not to sure about zerkers being able to tank as well as a guardian during Raids because someone said if a gfurdian is in the grp it will make the zerker tank a x4 raid….

    Well if you mean the guardians mitigation buffs..well they are all broke so a guardian would help a zerker as much as you think. I have been in a grp with a guardian and my health and mitigation were no where near his. As far as being more agile..well I don’t reaaly see myself dodging or parry against Vazgok all that often.

    So I have to wonder how you think Zerkers are even close to Guards as a raid tank.. Lesson our DPS and you make us worthless.

    The only point of the game to last forever is raiding if you nerf our raiding abilities we become usless..Then we are gone.

    Like I said ..if you are being out dps’s by zerkers perhaps you need to gear up on strength, potions,weapons, and adept 3s..And learn how to use the parser.


    Anyway I have built my character up to be mainly dps and the champion just tore throw me in Split Paw. So obviously my so called tanking abilities are not great. I have fabl;ed gear too so it sint my gear and I have purchased many adept 3s with hard work.

    You gonna give all the money back. Ill probably find some fool to buy my zerker and Ill leave the game.

    I have much more to say but I am at work so I should probably get back to it.
  9. ARCHIVED-Jvaloth Guest

    Yup, there are plenty of scouts that dont know what the hell they are doing.

    I have a 50 zerker and a 48 assassin. Time and time again I'm facing the mob and have a clean view of the scout at the mobs rear. I watch and see that alot of scouts don't maximize their dps with the multitude of back attacks that stealth you so you can land heavier hits. They just stand back there with auto attack on and occasionally use their bows. I noticed their power pool is full alot too... [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] my assassin's power is always low because I spam non stop damage...

    I wonder if these guys have figured out that you do the stealth attack, turn atttack OFF, becomein invisible, then land the big hit?? How about non stop Ringing Blow's (if your group isnt actively working HO's like so few do these days). All these things add to dps and quite honestly, the people that know how to play their DPS Class, will out DPS me.

    Too many noobs wanting instant DPS without doing the work for it. Just because you chose a scout doesnt mean you will instantly be better than tanks. You have to use the skills in your arsenal and use them correctly (i.e. taking advantage of oppurtunities per the class description, properly setting up your big hits with pierce debuffs etc etc).
    Essentially they need to simply buff up the scouts ability to avoid or mitigate damage, add some frontal attacks so scouts can do decent damage and still solo, and up their auto attack dps, and add soem freaking quality medium armor that has str/agi/sta instead of all this int/wis crap. Its [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] that scouts have to wear light armor in order to get stats they can use... If a warrior can do 60 dmg a hit with a SBD (based on strength), I think a scout should be able to do equal dmg with it (based on agility).

    Fix scouts, leave Beserkers alone.
  10. ARCHIVED-Chogar Guest

  11. ARCHIVED-Nosnemi1 Guest

    Guardians are raid tanks. Zerkers are DPS tanks. Take away our DPS and we are nothing.

    Guardians are tanks, Berserkers are Tanks. What will Berserkers be after the combat change? Tanks.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________


    So let me get this straight .....you think a Zerker can tank the x4 raid mobs with the normal healer setup of of a Guradian tank grp?

    You say A zerker is a tank..and we all agree... but DEFINITELY not a raid tank. Our avoidance and health can not be buffed up to that of a Guardian so they are always the Raid Tanks. I have shimmering BP and all ebon so im not defensless but still I khnow my place.

    Can I tank the lesser x4 mobs..sure ...np. King drayek is a push over. When we beat VaZGok the other day... could I have tanked it..??? almost definitely not, but there is very slight chance we could get lucky and keep me alive..very doubtful though. But he is a mediocre mob in the grand scheme of things. And it being Mediocre and all we still have one hell of a time taking him to deaths door even with a uber guardian.

    Could I tank the harder x4 mobs ....? Absolutely, with out a doubt, not at all. SO even if they bump up our defense a bit we still suck as raid tanks. And then what? Ill be as useful as an SK at a raid. Low dps, mediocre tank, completely useless for a raid...completely useless = boredom and quiting.


    I dont expect SOE to make everyone happy all the time but I expect them to at least look at this from the biggest point in the game. Raiding is where your die hards come from and those are who will stay. If you make a class useless at raids tehy will leave the game. Like my buddy the SK who is a good player but only tags along to raids to get dkp but never actually gets to fight anything cause he is not needed.

    He is thinking about quiting now.......
  12. ARCHIVED-Rocket3375 Guest

    SHAME ON WHOEVER IS THE IDIOT WHO IS BEHIND THIS...
    Last time I checked people were in business to make money and gain customers, not lose customers....
    I played EQ1 for years. I only played one character, a warrior. I have never played a caster nor do I want to. I quit EQ1 when AA points were introduced because I saw what the new owner of EQ, Sony, was doing to all the EQ addicted people. A donkey with a carrot on a string in front of it comes to mind. I was hoping that EQ2 would be a bit different. They were promising the ability of different play styles, such as a person who doesn't have 15 hours a day to sit on his [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] playing EQ and letting the rest of his real life fall apart. I decided to give Sony a clean slate and drop old beefs with them.
    When I bought EQ2, I put a lot of thought into becoming a Berserker. I did not want to always be a main tank again because it's a demanding job. (i.e. Jerkface_01 tells the group, "PULL!") Keep in mind that I hadn't played EQ in years and the only thing I knew about berserk was it was what happened when a warrior got to low health and then they did very high damage via critical hits if I remember correctly. I did not know what a Berserker class was! So I read the character description at the EQ2 website and in software documentation to get an understanding of them.
    I chose a berserker because I was lead to believe that was a very high-damage class that had the ability to tank but not as well as a guardian. This sounded great to me. I didn't always have to be the chump who did 90% of the group xp work and always 'leading'. But for the sake of making a group work I could be a tank (not as good as a guardian though). Everything was fine.
    Then, I took a 3 month break because my wife gave birth so I could pay attention to more important things. When I came back all my gear that I had bought under the pretense of selling later (meaning I chose armor_01 because it was a saleable item later on) had to be attuned. Thanks Sony for wasting a ton of my time and effort there. STRIKE ONE WITH ME SONY. Oh well, roll with the punches I say. I got over it.
    I kept leveling and playing even though the server population seemed to only be a fraction of what it was before after that incident. I considered following the masses elsewhere but I figured that I had put enough time into this character that I would stick with it. I went through 3 guilds that died out. Wasting all the time I put into leveling them guilds. Nice design on guild status Sony. I suppose you didn't foresee yourself screwing up major and having a mass mutiny. For me wasting all that time and effort on leveling guilds that died out due to people quitting the game because of your poor choices - STRIKE TWO WITH ME SONY.
    Now I am a lvl 47 berserker in a level 27 guild with a good reputation. I chose all attributes and attacks that would make me more high damage along the way. I never saw myself tanking a raid. In fact I spent a ton of money on buying alternate gear to wear at raids that had high strength per item. I was able to get my str to 220+ with just my own buffs. I've been transitioning to more of a damage dealer then a tank. I've been called a 'freak' (in a good way) because of the amount of damage I could do. The reason why that is, it is because I know what attacks/buffs to use in a certain sequence that cause me to be attacking at an insane rate with procs flying everywhere. I like to call this attention to detail and player skill. The balance part of this was me finding that line where I could maintain non-aggro in a raid situation... or die. This takes a lot of attention and skill. So now, my guild has said Berserkers are not welcome at raids since its a matter of space due to the "excellent" design of the small cap of players allowed to be in a raid group. Just wonderful. And finding a group just got a lot harder. Soloing just got a lot harder too. None of these were easy to begin with. So, now my class is deemed useless by the masses and is no longer a class I want to play. Since I don't want to be a guardian and never wanted to be any caster classes, In fact, there is not a class I want to play at all anymore. I don't want to play EQ2 anymore now due to this. STRIKE THREE SONY FOR WASTING WHO KNOWS HOW MANY HOURS OF MY LIFE. YOU'RE OUT.
    Not to mention never doing anything about the bots... I see the same ones running for weeks even though I reported them 5 times - STRIKE FOUR.

    For selling a game and a subscription to it that was not ready yet - STRIKE FIVE.
    And last but not least, lying to everyone who signed on as a berserker.... STRIKE SIX.
    I will avoid all Sony products/services like the plauge for the rest of my life.
    Good job Sony.
    If the management of development, or whoever is responsible for this, had an IQ higher then an eggplant then they could have found a better solution such as:
    Concentrations adjustments...
    1. No Concentrations up low defense, low offense:
    Berserker is ineffective in all aspects. This somewhat forces berserkers to choose a concentration.
    2. One that’s personally +defensive/offensive: (we have this already just needed to be balanced)
    It would make us close to as defensive as a guardian, but put our DPS in the middle of the pact
    3. One that’s personally -defensive/+offensive: (we have this already just needed to be balanced)
    It would make us top contender for DPS and about middle tier in defense. This would force a berserker to not exceed DPS that would get aggro. Aggro in this situation = near death/death experience. A berserker could not tank like this.
    Also~~~
    Since we are 2nd rate main tanks, why not give us a stronger intervene type concentration. This would make us more useful in a raid helping damage control on the main tank. You could have 10 berserkers switching who is intervening, which would take considerable coordination and skill, which would slow the damage rate and provide a HP pool for damage. As it is right now, no one cares about intervene it's not worth the effort.
    In conclusion...
    As of right now, Berserkers suck. No one wants us. No one needs us. There is a lot better classes to have in a raid party or group then a berserker now.
    No groups.
    No raids.
    Soloing is too hard now at higher levels. (lucky if can kill a lowest possible green herioc anymore solo)
    And another mass mutiny currently underway.
    Great job Sony Developers, if I managed my projects like you do, I'd be in the unemployment line.
    To iterate again, and I mean it....
    I will avoid all Sony products/services like the plauge for the rest of my life.
    P.S.
    I expected no less really. I wasn't a sucker. I didn't buy any adventure pack or expansion pack.
    I knew better.
  13. ARCHIVED-Eyes_of_Truth Guest

    Guys, im sorry.... im sure someone has allready qutoed MG's post about a little think saying ...
    Alll fightets are tanks.
    Cant get more specific, anyway, he also said there berserkers will deal the most daamge WHEN tanking, so if your not tnaking, your actually LOOSING dps.
    I imagine your berserking will only happen when attacked, or that you will see an improved CA that lets you riposte attacks for a short time.
    And yes, berserkers can easily tank a raid mob x4, monks can tank a raid mob x4, wont be as efficant, but it can be done. Maby not that hardest mobs in the game, but plenty of the reasier raid x4 mobs in the 50+ range can be tanked by non-guardians in this current setup, it's just not as efficant for the healers. The top end encounters imo are only guardian/paladin tankable currently, just due to their difficulty, but we will have to wait till after revamp to know if you canor cant tank them.
    The guy above you is right though Nosnemi, Fighter = Defensive focused archetype (tank), Warrior = Defensive class focused on mitigation, Berserker = Defensive class focused on mitigation with a good overall DPS and DPS inmproving abilityies for the group at no loss to their warrior defense.

    Guardian is Fighter = Defensive focused archetype (tank), Warrior = Defesncive class focused on mitigation, Guaridan = Defensive class focused on mitigation with group defensive enhancing abilities and group hp buffs and, imo their token ability, should be their Guard skill line.

    So in this set up what would be the true differance?

    Guardian chose defensive group buffs and skills that lower mobs daamge (there for letting them take less damage) and the ability to block daamgem for other allies, where berserkers chose more offensive buffs for their group, more DPS when in berserk mode (no need for a berserker to loose defense in berserk mode if their damage doesnt exceed a equally geared/skilled mage or scout)

    So without changing how much damage they do as a base (before buffs are considered) or exactly how much damage they can absorb, you can still have one with offensive plus, and the other with an inverted defensive plus (by lowering mobs attack speed and damage)

    That way when uber raid mob attacks, both guaridan and berserker will take same ammount of damage using same gear, but the Guardian's hp buffs and group defensive buffs will help him withstand the attack slightly better, but if a guaridan is in the same group as aberserker, then it's even.

    Im just tired of reading the "my berserker is a DPS class now [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and leave em alone"

    I realy want to make a tanking berserker, but im sure if this current system doesnt change, i would be shunned.

    Guardian's primary role- Defense, Secondary role- increasing the defense of group and lowering DPS of foes (which islike increasing your defense)
    Berserker's primary role- Defense, Secondary role- Increasing group's and their own DPS

    It's a trade off, berserker chooses damage as their secondary ability, while guardian chooses protecting allies and lowering incoming damage.

    It is alot more balanced like that than it is now.

    Same think with theother 2 tanking classes:

    Fighter = Defensive focused archetype (tank), Crusader = Defensive class focused on magical mitigation, Paladin= Defensive class focused on magical mitigation with a heals that are about 3/4 the power of a priest class's direct heal, with buffs for multiple stats.

    Fighter = Defensive focused archetype (tank), Crusader = Defensive class focused on magical mitigation, Shadoknight= Defensive class focused on magical mitigation with a lifetaps that are balanced with a Paladin's healing and ability to stealmob's stats. (i worked this out, if you give lifetap say 1 second casting time, 300 damage and 300 heal, with a 14 second recast for 130 power, and give paladins a 225 heal that takes 2 seconds to cast and 4 to wait for 50 power, and a nuke that does 150 with 1 second casting time with a 14 second recast timer for 30 power, it adds up that in 15 seconds a paladin can do 450 healing/150 spell damage for 130 power total, where as a SK would do 300healing/300 damage for 130 power.)

    This would help your SK friend out a TON :smileywink:

    Fighter = Defensive focused archetype (tank), Brawler= Defensive class focused on avoidance (also gets higher offense but less +hate mods), Monk= Defensive class focused on avoidance with ability to purge maladies from themselves (and possibly others) and ability to lower allies hate gain, while having dps close to scout/mage levels

    Fighter = Defensive focused archetype (tank), Brawler= Defensive class focused on avoidance, Bruiser= Defensive class focused on avoidance with ability deal very close to scout/mage damage, with many debilitating attacks that can bully and instill fear in their foes.

    Atleast thats how i think the classes should be done, all haveing areas where they tank well, and thier secondairy abilities not affecting how well they tank. SK, Berserker, and the brawlers shouldnt be added to a group just for their damage dealing role if a mage or scout withthe same upgrades is also lfg, but they should be added for their tanking abilities, with the extra damage/healing as icing on the cake so to speak.

    Well anyway thats how i see the fighter class, and it apears the devs are going down that route as well, i just hope how ever it turns out, that we have alot more tanking varriety that is more equallly balanced.

    dispite what some people think, balancing within the Archetypes, and not allowing the class or sub class choices to change the Archetypes main role, is how this balance needs to be apriched.

    It doesnt make us carbon coppies, it makes every fighter a good tank with class saying how you tank, and sub-class adding a secondary role (secondary roels should never be more important than primary roles of your archetype or anyone elses, aka no pallies out healingpriests or monks out damaging scouts or mages) and that kind of balancing allow for any priest to heal effecively, and every mage or scout to kill effectively.

    Main consern of mine with the current setup is this: Some people can put a ton of work into thier character, and simly because of their subclass or class, cant perform a job or role that another character who is a different class can perform better with less effort, like a Conjuror using a Master spell can be outdamaged easily by a warlock with a app4 dark distortion in thelower levels, and it only gets worse in the higher levels, or a monk who pays 50g for a full suit of rare leather armor geting out tanked by a Guardian in NPC baught armor.

    When balanced, the effort people put into their characters will reflect how well their character is, not their class. If a brawler has rare armor vs a warrior with common place armor, the brawler shouldbe the better defender.

    Anyway, i realy hope the berserker community gets some good stuff in thislife update, because i realy want a offensive warrior that tanks well, but doesnt get the gorup defending powers of a guardian. Thats how i think SOE is redeveloping the berserker. Damage is best when tanking is what MG stated, i only hope it means Berserkers will be on even footing with other tanks, along with brawlers and SK also being on even footing.

    Toodles!
  14. ARCHIVED-Chogar Guest

    Remember, SOE has spent alot of time on the combat changes to make sure they will work correctly. I am sure numerous guilds will be copied to the test server (already do this) to test how the combat changes affect raid content (as well as high level group content). SOE is not out to desroy any specific class. They want the game to be fun as well as a challange.
  15. ARCHIVED-Nosnemi1 Guest

    well i have to say the last two posts have been both informative and interesting to say the least. I am glad the posters both knew the scope better than I do. It was a pleasure being rebutted with such inticate detail. I was not aware of the uf stacking beig the huge dfference between guards and zekers. i apprecite it.

    Thanx for he info ..both of u:smileyhappy:
  16. ARCHIVED-Jabbit Guest

    Ok, let me start off by saying I raid daily. By daily I mean every night my guild goes out and does most if not all of the instanced zones, and during the week we gank 98% of the contested mobs. I am a level 50 Berserker. I come in the top 3 DPS nearly every raid mob. The people that beat me out alot of the time, are a Warlock, Monk, and Assassin. Are these not the classes that are supposedly no where near Berserker DPS? It all comes down to how well you play your class, and how hard you have worked to max out your DPS through spell/armor/weapon upgrades. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. When I first joined my guild my DPS was pitiful, usually around the 150 mark. But through raiding every night, getting fabled gear and adept 3 all my T5 skills, it grew to 225-300+. Now the 3 classes I mentioned above have done this also, and is why they are able to beat me out in most cases (we all have our bad days). So from my standpoint Berserker DPS is where it should be and always has been. I'm afraid the people who say we are the be all end all DPS are just talking out of their *****, or they need to stop being lazy and actually work on getting better, because it can be done. I wish more people would realize this and stop wishing nerfs on other classes, it's just counter-productive if anything. It's true, we pale in comparison to Guardians in the tanking area (HP/mitigation buffs), all we have is our DPS, and if this nerf goes live, we'll have nothing.

    P.S. If half of you spent as much time upgrading and bettering your toon as you do [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing about your low DPS, this whole farse wouldn't even be an issue right now.


    Jabbit Deathgrip, 50 Berserker
    Very Proud Member of "The Downward Spiral"
    Lavastorm Server

    Message Edited by Jabbit on 07-16-2005 05:40 PM
  17. ARCHIVED-Rocket3375 Guest

    fight·er
    1. One who fights, such as a soldier or boxer.
    2. A fast, maneuverable combat aircraft used to engage enemy aircraft.
    3. A pugnacious, unyielding, or determined person.
    war·ri·or
    1. One who is engaged in or experienced in battle.
    2. One who is engaged aggressively or energetically in an activity, cause, or conflict.
    ber·serk·er
    1.One of a band of ancient Norse warriors legendary for their savagery and reckless frenzy in battle.
    guard·i·an
    1. One that guards, watches over, protects or safeguarding.
    I really fail to see how a Berserker by any definition (dictionary or EQ2 description) is a 'Tank' in the same way that a guardian is. Sounds and sounded like to me this class is one who does damage not protecting others by maintaining aggro. Whats next? The color blue shall be called pink and vice-versa in EQ2...
    My bio read proudly "DMG Inc." It now should read: "Useless Inc. / /\/ C O /\/\ / /\/ G"
    Maybe they should just do away with the berserker class and turn em all into guardians? Sounds like there will be little differencen now.
    They should rename the class to "B Guardian" as in 'a less than' the plain flavored "Guardian".
    The lore for this "B Guardian" class should read:
    Once upon a time the berserker class was a formidable opponent until the Sony Gods, who were corrupted by others, decided that this class of warrior should be exterminated. First they took away their ability to exchange their very expensive armors and later the corrupted Sony Gods took away their strong offensive powers. Slowly but surely this class of warrior went extinct because it was common knowledge that they were useless in battle and had no other abilities that were worth while for a campaign against any epic foe. Only the foolish or anti-social decided to become berserkers after that and none ever succeed as they lacked the defense and offense to be effective in any situation. Through the ages the warrior class of Berserker disappeared along with their savagery and was transformed into the 2nd rate guardian class called "B guardian". This class is perfect for RL losers who want to bring their own personal RL dynamic into a virtual setting.
    This "B Guardian" class should come automatically with titles such as "PlayerName The Less Than" and "PlayerName The HasBeen" or "PlayerName Forever LFG" or "PlayerName LFGuild" or "PlayerName The Non-Raider" or "PlayerName The Useless". Other titles they might want to consider for the B Guardians might be: "PlayerName 2nd Rate Slayer of Undead" or prefixed like "Dirt Nap Tank PlayerName" or "Used To Do A Lot Of Dmg PlayerName". Or my personal favorite, "PlayerName Will Raid For No Loot Chance Or No XP!".
    They should create a zone specially for all these 2nd rate B Guardians where the mobs are really easy so they can still xp and get up to top levels to experience being shunned by others and not welcomed in the end game raid experiences so that this player can feel that he really just wasted all his free time for the last 8 months. At that point they should be forced to reroll to another class that this person does not want to play.
    In the coming future....
    Sony should force every class to become something they are not to be fair also.. Wizards become Rangers, Rangers become Coercers, so on and so forth.
    Make it random per character too so there is no logic in it to stay consistent with all the developers past actions.
    Or better yet... lets just make all classes the same, look the same, play the same so no one complains about unbalance... but wait another year to implement to really anger some people. Everyone should be given computer generated name for thier character like "Player_00124435" at this point also.
    While they are at it, Sony's EQ2 should also stop supporting NVIDIA video cards too and make sure that EQ2 does not work on any computer that came from Dell. They should change the graphics engines to only work on the new top of the line ATI cards and only work on Alienware computers (after the invest tons of money in stock in both companies of course).
    Sony should see if they can break their record for how many people they can get to quit a MMORPG in a one week period. Thumbs up, kudos and hats off to ya!! Quite an accomplishment.
    Last but not least....
    Let's remove all parts of this game that require any thought, decision making and player skill so the bot groups get more GPM (gold per minute). GPM > DPS
    For the alive player, quest walk-throughs and macros these quests should be provided, for an additional cost per month of course, and only be eligible if you have bought all expansion and adventure packs and have prepaid for any upcoming packs that may still only in concept phase and have not hit design phase yet.
    ~~~LIGHTBULB!~~~~
    Make Berserkers pay a one time $100 setup fee, a one time $55 administration fee, a one time $35 service fee, an occaisional random $25 upkeep fee and a $9 extra per month to retain their strong offense powers...
    This would be purely optional of course (not to be confused with extortion).
    I knew I'd come up with the solution to save this class... and I'm sure Sony approves of it.
    This will provide balance to what really counts...
    Sony's EQ2 Financials...
    ~
  18. ARCHIVED-Chogar Guest

    Why do people constantly yell the sky is falling when they know absolutly no facts about the combat changes?
    Yes, a list from best to worst damage has been released. That is all the information is: a list. Here are questions about the list that can only be answered by speculation (or a Dev):
    • Does the list include group encounters (where zerker DPS shines)?
    • Does the list include buffs like Anarchy or our 50% group haste?
    • Does the list inlude certain type of weapon tiers? (Fabled / Imbued / Prismatic)
    • Does the list take into account if we are tanking or not?
    • Does the list take into account the reactive damage Berserkers have? (Rage / Fury)
    • Does the list take into acount if Berserkers are in a stance? (Offensive / Defensive / no stance)
    • How much damage differentiates the tiers? Sub tiers?
    So many questions are not answered by the DPS chart. We need more information before we can make any intelligent posts on the good / bad of the combat changes. All we have to go on is what Moorgard has said and he has not said alot, he is good at being vague Even though Moorgard has posted a few times to try and clarify some of the changes he still has not revealed much information.
  19. ARCHIVED-Jvaloth Guest

    He said we would be 1 step above priests in DPS... that says it all.
  20. ARCHIVED-Chogar Guest

    Nosmei1,
    I enjoy good sarcasm, your above post was dripping with it congradulations.
    As to the rebuttal, it is impossible to put facts into any argument when there is incomplete information available about the combat changes. At least the views against the sky is falling posts try to inform people that nobody knows what will happen after the combat changes; except archtype rolls will be inforced. Anybody can make a post saying Berserkers will be worth less then a wet noodle; however, they have no facts to back this claim up. Only thing people who scream the sky is falling can do is look at the partial information we have available and make the worst case scenario like it is scientific fact. Like it or not nobody has the information available except SOE about the combat changes.
    Do not get me wrong, I am in the category of SOE better do the combat changes correct or they will lose subscriptions; however, I am not going to say the sky is falling when there is no information pointing in that direction. Partial information is irrelevant, anybody can make a case good or bad with partial information. Human nature tends to lean towrads the bad unfortunatly.

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