The problem is that yes, some people do want to dps as a berserker, and yes some people do want to tank as a berserker. Not to beat a dead horse, but if you look at the description of the class it makes it seem that you can somewhat flip a switch and choose if you want to tank or dps. After these changes we are going to be low dps, and 3rd or 4th in tanking without any real ability to sacrifice defense and gain dps. Most berserkers are saying they just want to do good dps with a sacrifice to tanking, or either good tanking with a sacrifice to dps. Not the best in either one. If conjurors and necromancers can flip a switch to move from the 3rd group to the 2nd group, why can't berserkers also get a switch to move from the 4th group to the 3rd group? As much as people want to dismiss it, the outdated description basically says we can do that. When I made my choice as a berserker, I read the forums that said we could do outstanding dps and tank very well, and I looked at the description of the class. Now after the changes that description will be completely inaccurate. I understand that we were overpowered, and needed to be tweaked. The main thing I don't understand is all of the other classes saying that we should be forced into a role that doesn't fit the description of our class. I just don't understand why we can't have a way to move up the dps chain by moving down the defense chain? Again, we aren't asking to move from the best tank to the best dps, just from (ok dps/good tank) to (good dps/ ok tank).
Arnt SoE specifically saying that you can increase your DPS based on the choices in weapons and training skill choices? I thought Moorguard specifically said that? So from what I can gather Zerkers want: 1. Superb Tank - Average DPS Flip a switch, make different choices and: 2. Average Tank - Superb DPS The problem I see with this, yet again you are moving in on the DPS classes. I know this may seem unfair but I dont see any reason why a zerker can do great dps and then even though they should supposedly have less tanking ability, be able to out tank a scout, which you will do no matter what choices you get. I'd have no problems with a Zerker being at the bottom of the 3rd tier of DPS or the top of the 4th tier if they sacrafice tanking ability. BUT, even if they sacrafice tanking they should in NO WAY out dps a class who's specific role is that of DPS, because when all is said and done, whichever route you go, you will always be able to tank mobs better than any DPS class. There needs to be a significant difference between a pure DPS class and what I would call a secondary DPS class such as Zerkers. Otherwise all scouts will be in the same position as they are now, with tanks being able to take a lot more hits and them matching scouts for DPS anyway. I would class Wizards/Warlocks/Rangers/Assasins as pure DPS classes. I have stated above the utlity that Rangers have, it's minimal at best, to make up for that they need to be damm good at DPS.
What most berserkers want is to be left alone. I say revert Berserk skill to how it used to be. When you berserk your defense goes down. Fix the broken skills and tweak the base mitigation and avoidance numbers a bit and leave us alone!
First let me qualify all of what i am going to say by saying that I am a 45 Zerker on the Nektulos server named Kajar. We are overpowered. We are the best tanks right now. We are the best damage dealing fights from everything i've seen. We need to be nerfed. To the level we are? Nope. When I group with a 45 guardian from my guild who is a GREAT MT, or pickup groups, i regularly have NO Trouble getting and maintaining agro ... even if i'm not Main Tank, and i'm not taunting. Is that a 'bad' thing? No, because with my gear I can take some wacks before its even an issue, and we usually have secondary healers around anyway. Do I think our DPS should be hit? No. Because then we'll just be a Guardian who cant tank as well and doesnt have good enough DPS to make up for it. I am all for stripping us of Vanguard armor, or capping the amount/types of armor we can use. I Think our 'buffs' are terrific which gives us a good thing, but if we can't have DPS to go along with it, why be a Berserker? So in summation, SOE if you even give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] what i think, strip away some of our taunts, take away our heavy armor, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont take away our DPS!
We are frightened for what the above people have clearly articulated. We signed up for this class after carefully weighing ALL of the classes and their descriptions. I felt that the Beserker would be the funnest class for me. Now they want to make us average tanks (never raid tanks) and average (below average) dps. So whats our role now? Before we could throw on a shield, spam some defensive buffs and maintain agro at the expense of dps. If we are fighting weak mobs we can go dual wield or 2hand and spam dps with no defensive worries in the world. We sacrified offense for defense and defense for offense. Now we are going to be bottom rung dps, without Guardians/Paladins tanking ability... We have no rolls in raids and a completely diminished role in groups. You can't take a class thats existed since the game was released, with thousands of people playing this class... then completely flip it upside down and do a 180' and make things perfect! Guardians/Pally's are Raid Tanks. Beserkers/SK are DPS Tanks. Keep the tanks the way they are, they have clear roles. If I wanted to play a Guardian, I woudl have ROLLED A GUARDIAN. Read the class description of beserker. It says "Wears plate armor and deals HEAVY DMG". This implys the ability to wear the best armor in the game AND deal damage. We are not raid tanks, we are dps tanks. There is a difference, perhaps not as evident in groups but when it comes to raids there is a clear and profound distinction. Up the avoidance of scouts based on agility. Give scouts quality medium armor with STR/AGI/STA Not INT AND WIS. UP THE DPS OF SCOUTS and add FRONTAL high damage attacks so they can actually SOLO. Up the DPS of Chanters, give them a frigg'n charm already so they can hold their own and provide DPS. At worst, the only other thing they should do to Zerkers is remove our ability to wield shields. Effectively removing (depending on level) up to 800-900 mitigation. Let us cozy into our rolls as DPS tanks and take up 2handed weapons and dual wield weapons, go beserk, and kick some behind. Will they do this? Doesnt sound like it. Sounds like we'll be guardians without the tanking ability and our dps taken away (1 step above healers? Give me a break) . Class description should read "EQ 1 Warrior" not "Beserker". This effectively kills the class that all of us signed on to play. This is unacceptable. Got my character to 50th level working my **** off day and night and this is what all the hard work was for? They still need to address the other concerns we must all be stressing about... skills/money issues. What happens to our Adept 3's and Master 1's we paid money for expecting a certain effect/result? I pay 4p for Vanquish Master 1 and now Vanquish is called "Shove" and does 50% less dmg... ? I pay 3p for Rampage Master 1 then its renamed "Temper Tantrum" and lasts only 2 seconds instead of 5 seconds... heh Leave my class alone. Fix the others. Leave my class alone. Fix the others. Leave my class alone. Fix the others. Leave my class alone. Fix the others. Leave my class alone.
Excellent points Jvaloth. While I am of the 'very' casual gamer and have not leveled my toon to 50, these proposed changes have me concerned. If are we currently labeled '2nd best tank in the game' where will we be as a class if the nerf the dps? Is that not one of the primary reasons that we can hold the immense argo, by that of dps? Maybe I am wrong. When I chose the path of the zerker, I fully read through on what the class was ‘supposedly’ intended by the descriptions of SOE, and after being a part of EQL for 3 years, I thought I had a good understanding. I knew that I would not be the MT on a raid, but that I could group MT, be main assist on a raid, and have the ability to solo, albiet tough. I have to agree with a lot of the current zerkers in that “if I wanted to be the MT for raiding, I would have picked a Guardian.†I never had the though that I was going to be! I have also spent some time looking into a lot of this DPS v Scouts, and for 99% of it its bunk! Parsing shows no proof what-so-ever. What buffs are being carried, with what weps, with what range, with what power, with what spells/abilities.. An assassin, at the back of a mob, should be able to burst dps more than me, but over a long fight, no. A Ranger should be able to out dps us, if at RANGE, but not when they are toe to toe as us. Ah well.. just the ramblings of a mid level zerker.
Once again, someone hit the nail on the head. Well said Jvaloth! It's just a crying shame that after we take the extended time and effort to pick a class that is good for us, spend boat loads more time leveling it up to the 40s or 50, just to have the class completely restructured. You don't go buy a sports car, drive it for a couple months, then have the dealer swap it out for a family station wagon just because someone else doesn't like what you drive. That's ludicrous! Why do it in a game? If another class doesn't like what they are doing compared to you, then they can just reroll to your class. Why does every zerk have to take a hit out of envy? We only bring two things to the table, decent tanking via agro control and dps. If you take either away, you're just gimping the class! Please, SOE, read the responses here and respond! You're really hurting a huge client base! I've monitored some of the other tank forums and it's about unanimous across the board...there are extremely few tanks happy with what you're doing! Bjoern
Ok I would like to chime in as well, I'm a 42 Zerker. Ok in response to the ranger's post, u hit the nail on the head, zerkers at the moment can be either a tank or dps. But, let me extend on this theory a bit. I chose zerker because I wanted a character like in the description presented in the manual. So as my character progressed in levels, in order to do more damage, I chose str over stanima for training and racial traits, as well as items and armor stats. Therefore, I do a considerable amount more dmg, than someone who chose sta over str so they could tank. Now as far as I can tell, this is an intentional part of the gameplay, because they state in the combat overhaul that guardians who chose str, and zerks who chose sta will do the opposite of their usual intended role of tanking vs dps. So with that said, those of us who chose dps over tanking will do less dps than we have in the past, just above Paladin and Gaurdian. But those who chose tank, will actually get a better tanking abilty, this is what seems unfair. At my charactes current state, everyone picks a guardian or paladin even for a tank over me, becasue they know I went the dps route, which is fine by me. I like doing massive amounts of damage and striking fear in my enemies. But, if my dmg gets nerfed, where does that leave me? I now have a subar zerk in tanking and dps? I did not want to be only a tank or I would have rolled a guardian or Paladin. So I can reroll another character or just wait untill SOE gets some logic, or cancel my subscription, which I may indeed do? I suffered through the mid 20's -level thirty after they nerfed bloodlust, I nearly rerolled my character then, but everyone told me things got bet at 32+, so I endured. Sure enough it did, so I'am currently happy with my zerker, but if this dps nerf goes into effect I may very well say thats it. I have already been playing another online game, because of the talk of us being nerfed as is. Not to mention the fact that I'am really getting tired of camping the frekin bouncers and other 4 hr spawns!!! The game I currently play has absolutely no camping involved and is great! I won't mention the name, for fear that the might SOE may lock this post. I also have a low level ranger alt, and I think you forgot to mention group invis, or don't we get that? I'm by far not an expert on ranger so I could be wrong. Anyways, hopefully us dps zerks don't get nerfed, or there will probably be one less zerk out there, which is a darn shame.
Here is the real reason(s) Zerkers will get hit the hardest 1. You can tank raid mobs just as good as a Gaurd (as long as a gaurd is in yer group) and you just dont know it cause popular thought has told you otherwise. > This has caused many gaurdians to be sporting full fabled gear, any why not the raid tank needs the best gear , right?? 2. You can do as much damage if not more than some scouts > Most players dont know this , and parsing with complete dumbo scouts has made this worse. 3. There are not many of you ! > Cant quote my server #'s but on my server popularity def goes .. Gaurd > SK > Pally> Zerker In short it's very easy to nerf Zerker the hardest , there are fewer of us , with lesser gear , unknowlingly overpowered.. Either way it adds up to you being worse IN A RAID SITUATION!!! Basically theres no way your going to be able to tank as well as a gaurd (when the patch hits).. In some cases Zerks are MT's for there guild , but this wont last unless you were able to aquire a set of raid gear already if not then you wont ever get the chance.. As for DPS well who cares really , all you know is its getting worse ALONG WITH yer tankability! Message Edited by Ol'boy on 07-09-2005 08:35 PM
I..........I am......... so tired........... of the stupid line they rip from the manual and site... the devs have stated time and time again that was simply a "LORE" aspect, trying to make the characters sound cool, it's not the freaking bible of class definition lol. And if ANYONE has a right to B*tch that their class doesnt get to match it's little discription is SUMMONERS...... im dead serious..i want my freaking summon fooooooood!! it was even mentioned in the summoner choice training lol! At least no mater what a berserker will still beable to do some ammount of damage but no mater what unless a change come my pooooooor Conjuror will never beable to get free grub! NO THAT IS A GAME BRAKE /sob sob sob lol but enough with da' fluff, down to bussieness. Your Archetype is fighter. Your Class is warrior. You subclass is berserker. So for your most quentessential and vital choice int he game, your archetype, you chose fighter, which plainly spelt it out that your gona be face to face with mob, relying on physical damage (notice it doesnt say to what degree) and you will PROTECT the weaker classes by taunting. To me and the majority of litterate people this means that you "tank" wich means hold aggro to allow others to perform their rolls. With out a tank you have a very difficult group situation as no one sole person will beable to hold aggro. Taunting is the fighter's primary role, and defensing allies. So you chose Warrior... by that you chose to take damage by way of mitigation of physical blows (rather than avoid or withstand magical attacks) and you chose to have the best protection skill that blocks for players. So now it's level 20 time... so guardian or berserker... Sub-classes are the icing on the cake. You chose defense by going Fighter, and you choose physical mitigation by going Warrior. Now, imo the main differance ina Guardian and a Berserker should be abour 4 differing skills and at most only a 10% deferance in taking damage and dealing damage from the base of Warrior. Guardians need to have the best Guard ability that allows a very high chance to take damage for an allie, and mitigate that damage that you intercept. For a berserker, imo they should get a better counter-attack, thus increasing their damage, and perhaps their guard ability would not mitigate the damage they intercept as well as a guardian but have a chance to riposite the intercepted blow. That kind of differance makes them differnet enough to warrent two different classes, without making one the difinitive "BEST" tank. Giving Guardians better group HP buffs and giving Berserker better group +damage buffs would also add to their diversity without unbalancing it. Their attacks <when not considering their buffs> should have the EXACT same base damage. Im terribly sorry if you made a berserker strictly for damage, but if you paid attention to your most important desions, thoughs being your Warrior and Fighter choices, you would have forsaw that your sub-class choice wasnt going to instantly quientupple your damage output. You did the choice completely backwards, you prejudistly choose berserker based upon the name or from what one source of outdated data, one line even, to base your 50 levels <and beyond> of your character, all the while ignoreing the warning signs of your characters developement form fighter to warrior to eventauly berserker that your class was never ment to have an increably superior personal DPS. To be honest you deluded yourself into thinking "well, now im a warrior, but at 20 im nolonger a warrior, im a berserker!!" Sorry to seemingly insult you or your some what poor choices, but your not a butterfly.... your not going to forma cacoon at 19 and emerge frmoa warrior tank to a berserker dps... cant realy think of a simpler analogy... Sorry to all you level 50 monk/bruiser/sk/berserkers that feel your role is damage because according to fighter's discription it's not. And as for raids, it's much better to allow multiple tanks to divide the damage amongst them, allowing healers to heal smaller, wide blows then single spike blows that can instantly kill. Forming battalions of fighters should be an option in this game... i mean honestly... how are we supsoed to expect one "ubah" tank to go all Rambo infront of a dragon while the rest of the fighters cheer him on whilst wacking on the mobs [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?? I think they shoudl all get a piece of the action when tanking and make it a group effort. Require them to be within a certani small radius of eachother for them to divide the damage, and AOE skills would be excluded from this as they hit them all now anyway. Feel free for non "RAGED" responses to my post, anything that is pure flaming hate replies ill simply ignore but anyhting possitive and constructive im more than willing to read pages upon pages. Toodles! <oh and fyi i have a Conjuror (and have also played almsot every Qeynos based class with exception of rouge/shaman) if you couldnt guess and we have been completly low on DPS rating since launch, you should be glad at how well you we're doing for atleast that period, my conjuror was to be my main but when i saw the rate at which change was happening i shelfed him and made a warlock. I know it's hard to accept change <or in my case lack-there-of, but learn to adapt, as it's one of man kinds few GOOD qualities? You dont know how often i wished my Conjuror had the mages core role of damage. Worst case senerio they **** your damage, you still have your primary role of taunting to fall back on, but my conjuror has had absolutly no "crutch" for about 9 months i think it has been because without damage, little int he way of CC beyond tank pet which means we loose damage of a currently broken DPS pet...and this list goes on, with exception of training abilities conjuror has no nuke besides level 12 one from summoner days, and besides petrify, we have no truely good spells> PS- im sure there are alot of realy nice, calm, and intelligent berserkers out there, even if the immature people tend to flock to the class as a "macho" think, as would younger players probly (im 16 and can surpress such diseriers so im trying to not sterio type age into this lol ) but most berserkers that post atlest seem to fit their class to well... and by that i mean they love to RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!! But to thoughs who are productive and constructive, i hope something is done that can truely compensate your loss of damage, but i dont think it will devistatingly brake your class ,unless you we're trying to perform a role ythat our archetype was not designed for above another archetypes role that is specificaly designed for damage, anyway, goodluck in your quest for balance! Toodles!
Again, I hear ya'all about wantin' t' have more DPS, an' all - I wish we did. An' I wish Zerkers din't hafta wear heavy armor an' tank an' all - but I think I shoulda seen this comin' when I chose th' class - so I blames m'self, not SOE. Fer instance, I see folk bein' mad about SOE's description of our class, an' I have jus' a couple points t' make: 1. Same description that says "chaotic warriors who inflict heavy damage with all manner of weapons..." also says "Heavy" under armor. I fer one din't want Heavy Armor, but I took th' class anywho an' din't complain about it much. The armor choice an' th' fact that it was in the same track as Guard was one signal that this weren't no classic "berserker" of yore - an' I shoulda seen that comin'. I betcha if'n we had all the DPS of Monks/Bruisers (at least) there wouldn't be no complaints about our Heavy Armor. Meantime, them monks an' such can't wear our armor, an' they prolly wouldn't mind the extra mitigation. 2. We look'n at our class's description alot to say why we oughta be so high on DPS, but what about th' other class descriptions? Example is Bruisers: "[P]owerful thugs who use raw physical force to pummel their opponents into submission. They have transformed their bodies into brutal weapons designed to inflict suffering on their enemies." OK, so what's better? "inflict heavy damage" or "pummel ... into submission ... [and] brutal weapons designed to inflict suffering on their enemies"? Or Wizards, who "can inflict startling devastation upon their enemies." Hey, here's some news - most classes have descriptions that make them sound tough - that's a gaming company trying to make the classes sound cool! What's SOE going to do, describe zerkers as "chaotic warriors who inflict OK damage - but not as good damage as some others but more than priests - with all manner of weapons"? Who would want to play that class? Finally, we DO get t' wear Heavy Armor. The higher DPS classes have no defense when they pull aggro. So, I feel bad too - but we shoulda seen this comin' an' it really be a matter of SOE mis-namin' our class. "Berserker" jus' ain' the right term. I ain' too creative, but mebbe "Attacker" or somethin' woulda been less misleadin'. Meantime, I be playin' my zerker anywho.
Just to speak on the heavy armor vs. light armor issue. If they actually get avoidance tanking and mitigation tanking working the way they should, then monks and brawlers won't need heavy armor, because they tank by avoidance not mitigation. Also, everything is speculation right now, since the changes haven't happened, but some people need to think of the end result and stop mixing possible changes in with the way things work now. Remember that it's a revamp, so you have to think about a "perfect world" until we actually see the way it all works. Forget about the way it works now, and look at the way they say it's going to work.
For someone that wants a non "raged" response, you surely aren't going about it the right way. Your post is more "raged" than most of the other posts I've seen from berserkers. Nowhere in the class description for a fighter does it say that you won't be able to do high damage, and if you are going by the primary descriptions, the scout description only mentions opportunistic damage, nowhere does it say "higher damage than the fighter class, but less damage than the mage class, and oh yeah higher damage than the priest class". The whole issue is that non-berserkers don't want berserkers to be able to do good damage and tank at the same time. Most berserkers agree that they shouldn't be able to, so they want to be able to switch "modes". Again, by switching modes, you wouldn't be able to be the highest in either mode, but you should be acceptable. P.S. you aren't going to get very many positive responses when you imply that people are illiterate (while appearing to be borderline yourself). Many people made choices on their class based on class descriptions, forums, articles, etc... Now after the combat changes, some of those descriptions, articles, and even past in game observations aren't going to be correct. I personally will be ok even if we lose lots of dps and become a second rate guardian with no other bonuses. I don't think it would be very fair though, and I honestly don't know if it will turn out that way. Last thing, for the people saying that you should be happy that your class was good for a while because my "X" class is broken. Do you think it's fair to break our class and fix yours? I've never been ok with any of the classes being broken, and I honestly hope they fix all of them not just my class. I'm planning on playing this game for a long time, so I'd like to know that the choice I made will still be ok a year from now. That's why we are having these discussions before the changes, we want sony to know that if they break our class we will be gone, but we don't want to leave, so please don't break our class.
Holy crap dude what kind of logic did you use to draw this conclusion? I think by now we've established that not only are zerkers tanks, but [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] good one's at that. IMO much better than a guardian. It's because we're so [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing good we're gonna have to solo the nerf-bat. I don't blame them,(although I really don't want to see our class get ruined :smileysad. But guardian's are busy [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing and whining thinking they should be the better tank, because to them apparently all that matters is mitigation and HP. In reality the berserker has some very good advantages over the guardian. It's a slightly.... SLIGHTLY different tank strategy, but a successful one at that. And to the dude that makes a berserk thinking it's a DPS class is gonna be dissapointed, same for anyone that considers a zerker primarily DPS.... you're an idiot! :robotmad: We all made a choice at level 20, and so far, I haven't regretted mine. Also, about that Lore written for classes to make them sound cooler.... ya [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] right I think our classes should resemble that lore somewhat. I wouldn't say a Templar is a hard-core soul-eatting demon, ripping his enemies apart with dual wielding 2handed axes and breathing fire from his mouth whilst healing his comrades if that class couldn't do things like that. It just wouldn't make any sense!
No the whole issue is that zerkers no matter what choices they make still seem vastly overpowered compared to other classes. This in turn renders classes like the ranger class useless. Along comes the zerker in dps mode, with more dps and tanking ability than any scout. Next day he's back tanking in a group. I was in a raid in CoD against Rognog, the dps chart comes up and yet again the three zerkers had beaten every single Ranger for dps, why the hell even have rangers if you have these uber tanks who seem to be able to out dps the scout classes and also tank like demons.
Yet again, you're talking about the way it is now. We are talking about the way it will be, and the way we all perceive that it should be. So, basically everyone other than berserkers are perfectly ok with sony screwing up and making a bad decision that nerfs us into uselessness? Just because we had it so good for so long. How mad would you have been if the 3 berserkers were doing moderate dps, a little behind the rangers, but not quite comparable? That's all I'm asking for, I don't want to beat rangers and all the other "dps" classes, I just want to be close enough that in a pinch or certain situations I can hold my own and have decent dps (giving up the tanking ability).
Im hoping that berserkers get a DPS boost in the form of group haste+ CA damage boost by 5-20%, and reduced personal damage from their CA then what they are now. That way in th right group they could bring a load of extra damage, less then a good bard would, but enough to amke them the superior choice for a melee havy group. Also, powerfull riposte skills that temporaraly increase your riiposte chance by alot, icnreasing your damage while being rather defenseive too, but neither too extream. Toodles! Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on 07-11-2005 12:49 PM
Sorry I just dont see what the problem is the with combat changes. You will still be able to tank as well as you can now. For those of you that dont know, Zerkers have no problems tanking, and I regularly group with one with no issues at at all. As for DPS you, will still be better tha Guardians and all the healer classes. As for zerkers doing moderate dmg and being a little bit behind rangers, sorry but I will still be annoyed. The predator classes sole purpose is DPS, utlity has been sacraficied for this one purpose and i'll be damm annoyed if yet again we have the same issues with tanks even getting close to a pure dps classes dps. After all a Ranger/Assasin cant tank at all, so why should a Zerker be able to tank great (which they will be able to) and also come close to what is supposedly a pure dps based class. I think the combat changes will be a huge step in the right direction, for way too long the entire scout class has been left out in this game with tanks being the uber class, why do you think there are so many tanks on the servers.
After being used as a tissue paper by the Pit Champion, and then reading this I cancelled. Another useless class in SOE's large arsenal of useless classes.
