Well from a Guardian's perspective... I don't think Bloodlust's damage needs 'nerfed' again. I think the devs just didn't realize that the bloodlust was going to generate so much hate. I'd like to see the berzerkers do very nice dps imo, that's what the class is for. It's just it should hold the aggro like it does. I don't mind it pulling a mob off, but we should be able to grab it back being a guardian. I mean, please realize people (especially the poster above me that says guardians should 'guard') that as a character, and us spending all of our time into this character, we *sacrifice* all of our offense so that we can take damage better than anyone. If we can't do that, then WE are a wasted class. Period. We don't get to do the fun stuff and pile on a huge berzerker rage attack... we have to say, 'no, I'm holding myself back and not going to do those cool attacks so that I can make sure I keep these enemies occupied and their attention away from the real threat'. So if we can't do that, then blah... time to start a new character. But being past level 20 and a wife and 2 kids so limited play time, I ain't about to do that. So the devs better **mods 4 teh win!!1!** well fix this aggro problem bloodlust is giving off.
Bloolust DOES create a STUPID amount of aggro because it causes the berserker to be constantly berserked and that itself is a HUGE aggro increaser I group with a 33 gaurdian who has 1 master, and 2 adept 2 taunts... I can pull aggro off him in less than 10 seconds on ANY mob, or ANY encounter. Doing the enchanted lands trial was such CRAP, every group i was in HATED Me If you want to see me in action, just post so, and ill give you my info so you can log onto my server and watch the punishment
Lumpy, I was fighting some greys and noticed this too. Bloodlust procs when you hit the mob, not when the mob hits someone. During these encounters the mobs would never even hit me, but everytime I swung and hit, Bloodlust would go off. That would explain why faster weapons means way more aggro, because you're buffing yourself more frequently. This has to be a bug. Mazzus
I am not sure Bloodlust procs when you hit the mob. I believe it procs everytime you are hit or attacked... I believe I had ward on me the other day...and put up bloodlust and I was not going berserk. I might ahve been mistaken as I just stopped using it in group... To gthe guardian here complaining about ..whatever.... First off..this game has been out a month? or two? Do you think this issue will not be resolved? Expect bugs..no class will be perfect. I too dont have a lot of time in-game...but to quit a class due toa bug taht affects you when you group with 1 specific otehr class? GET REAL. Educate the berserk in the group or kick him out. If I know Bloodlust is causing agro to peel to me because of a KNOWN issue...WHY on earth would I piss you off and the group by constantly using it? Um cause Im an idiot and need to gety the boot from the group. Seriously. If someoen is doing something detrimental to the group they need to cooperate and stop it. IT is a GROUP after all. So to re-cap..... 1. Educate people about agro when necessary 2. Await positive changes to your class and ours to help reduce this issue 3. MMOs are in constant change....its a reason we play them...enjoy knowing that balance and fun things do eventually coem to everyone. 3. Boot morons from your group
IMHO, just have the guardian put intervene/guard on the zerker... whats it matter if they are taking the damage for themselves or for someone else? It's called synergy, and I think its a great new concept in group roles. Guardians and Zerks are great together, because a zerk can handle the full force of a blow when one slips throught the guardians defenses... you can't play it that way with a sorc.. as for protecting the healer, the zerk can put his intervene there, besides if the aggro is such a battle between the tank duo the odds of any landing on the healer should be slim, especially when they are healing the guardian for the most part and may even be able to let a little 'slip by' onto the zerker without casting a heal as soon.
As I mentioned above I enjoy being able to pop Bloodlust in a group and knowing that all the mobs in the encounter will soon be targetting me. Since I am frequently main tank in a group I think this is a great skill. Rather than nerfing the skill I think guardians should also get a 'high aggro' skill they can count on to generate hate. As the above poster pointed out, if as a zerker you are constantly regaining aggro from the main tank, be it guardian or whatever, you need to evaluate your playstyle.
Intervene currently SUCKS. You take a LOT of damage when you intercept those attacks, as if you had no armor on.. it hurts like a BEEHOTCH,.
I've noticed that, so perhaps thats something else that needs to be fixed. These 2 classes should be complimenting each other, not bickering over who's stepping on who's toes. The point of intervening in this case is of course to mitigate the damage better...
Yesterday I was fooling around and noticed that when I have Bloodlust up there seems to be a taunting effect like when you taunt a monster. The mobs will turn deep red for a moment, all of them in the encounter not just the target. This may be what's countering the aggro of the main tank in a group. If Bloodlust is suppose to be a hate generator then it should be noted in the skill. I have taunts that I can use if necessary to taunt a monster, I don't need a skill that I have no control over as far as controlling agro. When in a group with a guardian the guardian will need to be the established main tank. When we start taking on higher level mobs that ripose hits, dual weilding with a couple fast weapons and the berserker being MT will be suicial. The option is to go with a slower 2h weapon but still the zerker will be much faster then a guardian in combat. Myself and the guardian I play with have already noticed a differnce in attack speed between us. I do a lot more damage in a group faster and he is capable of taking a lot more damage longer, this works well. Unfortunately, because I cannot berserk, I am actually sacrificing a large amount of damage I "could" do in a group like I do when I solo. After reading several posts in the guardians and berserkers forums I do not see how a berserker should be the MT over a guardian in a group. Even with intervene, the guardian will take substantual amount of damage along side with the berserker. As far as healing power from the cleric, this could be much worse, she/he will have to focus on two players to keep healed all the time instead of one. This may seem like a good tactic but when you weigh the cost of power and trying to manage both tanks, it will be worse then the MT only taking damage over adding the extra damage effect of a berserker. Bloodlust should not have a taunting effect to it. It should draw the normal amount of hate that any player would draw from doing a certain amount of damage in a certain amoutn of time. We played with this, even let him work a mob till it was half dead, all along the way putting on all his taunting and using all his hate generating abilities and I could still shift the agro to me in no time sweat by putting on Bloodlust. This may sound like a good thing in case I have to take agro quick, but it should not be Bloodlust, it should be another art. The bottom line is, if a berserker cannot berserk in a group then hes not using one of his fundamental abilties of a berserker. That would be like a rouge not being able to backstab without the agro always being on the rouge? The berserker is a warrior class, designed to tank if necessary, but that tanking shouldn't always be mandatory over a guardian if the berserker wants to use his fundamental abilties.
I agree with your post, your last paragraph sums up what I think the Guardian community is feeling. And that is they cannot perform their class defining skill, that is to tank and protect. Zerkers should be able to Tank and do (more) DPS (but at a cost). Currently there is very little damage ‘taken’ difference between Zerker and Guardian = very little cost for a substantial DPS increase to the Zerker. The Guardians should be able to Tank and provide Damage mitigation (but at a cost). Currently the Guardians DPS is way below the Zerker. So there is a Heavy cost that is paid here, yet guards have no substantial gain in Defensive capabilities. This goes for soloing and groups. Zerker has the same AC/Roughly same HP's/Same Heavy armor, same Taunts/CA's pre 20 as a Guardian and now lets fast forward post 20, we find a Zerker can Tank as well as a Guardian hold agro the same and or better and still provide more DPS. Then a Guardian is just a poor mans Zerker with an Intercept ability to put on other tanks (rare occasions other classes) for rough encounters, which poses problems for the healers as noted above. Healers prefer one person taking damage to concentrate heals/runes/regen/reactive heals/DS Heals. Heck a Swashbuckler I frequently group with can tank as well as I can in most circumstances, with their damage avoidance abilities, they just lack an AE taunt. Had I realized the very grey line between Zerkers Deff/HP’s/Heavy Armor ability/Agro abilities from Guard, I would have rolled one instead, considering the Guards traits are rarely used due to lack of effectiveness. Killing something faster is as good, or better than a slight increase in defense. In fact if you have Just a Zerker then it would be an obstacle and slow the group down to add a Guardian. In this case add another DPS or healing class if only one healer to take on the beefy stuff. But I digress I signed up to be a Guardian. So coming from a Guardian; the last thing I want to see is a nerf of any kind. Tune the guards to have more defense/HP’s and fix the guard CA’s (Intercept/Sentinel/Stand firm ect...) as they were intended to be, and have the ability to hold agro or these is no point in being a 'tank'. Guardians Give up DPS, Zerkers give up , and don’t say to protect, DPS is constant and tangible VS. Using an ability once every 2 hours because someone was sleeping. If any tank is doing his/her Job well they shouldn’t need to use an intercept very often, even if it did work as advertised. So how do they fix it? Below are just a few ideas that could be blended to find a resolution. If Zerkers want agro from ‘Berz’ CA then by all means let them have it. But address the other areas for Guardians to make them appealing, or everyone and their mother (who want to tank) will be playing Crusaders/SK’s and Zerkers. 1) Lower agro from Berz CA/Raise Agro on Guards Taunts 2) Raise AC/HPS of Guards ‘more’ over other Plate classes, after all we do less DPS and don’t have divine/Devilish spells. 3) Fix GuardCA’s that currently have very little tangible effect in groups, let alone solo. Bottom line is smart play can overcome all of this, But if you invest time and effort in to a class/charector you want balance, and I think this is all the guardian community is asking for.
( quoted from previous post) 1) Lower agro from Berz CA/Raise Agro on Guards Taunts 2) Raise AC/HPS of Guards ‘more’ over other Plate classes, after all we do less DPS and don’t have divine/Devilish spells. 3) Fix GuardCA’s that currently have very little tangible effect in groups, let alone solo. Your a fool if you think that will fly.... What is this EQ1? All that your asking there is too unbalance every Plate tank Class so Guardians can be Numero Uno tank.... I call BS, it has been stated many many many times that each tank class will tank a different way... Yes i agree that Guardian taunts need to be more effective ( put them on par with Berserker) ..... Asking for taunt from berserkers too be toned down is unbalancing..... You ask that AC/HP be raise over all other plate classes ? Lol again is this EQ1? Explain that to Berserker,Paladin and Shadow Knights.... What needs to be done is Guardian AND Paladin mitigation needs to be scaled up after 20 to where it is comparable to the scale up of DPS from Berserkers and Shadow Knights ... Fix Guard CA's.... Ok here i think i can agree with you for the solo part but for groups REALITY CHECK... you want dps in groups as a tank be a Berserker.... Guardians are Defense Oriented... your taunting ability ( taunt skills) needs to be improved, as is your inert class defense mitigation..... That will offset your lack of dps soloing if you can have a better chance of not getting hit... Those 3 things you ask if implemented will unbalance the game period....
To make guardians more fun to play: 1) Give them defensive abilities that raise their HP/AC. etc. This is in line with the offensive abilities zerkers get. 2) Give them a more effective taunt. Bottom line, if a tank wants to get aggro and he is zealous in using taunt throughout a fight the tank should have aggro. This should apply no matter what class is tanking. I happen to like the aggro that Bloodlust generates but am willing to concede it is probably bugged at this point. I group with a guardian regularily and he has no problem keeping aggro from me as long as I don't use it. I will be sorry to see it removed though since I have saved groups more than one time by having the ability to pull all mobs on me very quickly if the guardian goes down or I am main tank.
You must have a reading comprehension problem, I never said to change all of these, I said these were some ideas that could be melded to resolve the current issue. Read your own reply to my post 'gasp' You said it yourself "Guardians are Defense Oriented..." Currently atm there is no real difference between Guardians defense and Berserker defense. There is a Huge different between Guardians DPS and Zerker DPS. I said it in my own thread "the last thing I want to see is a nerf of any kind". Some of the berserkers here suggested reducing the agro of the CA zerker, I didn't. So Styker I suggest you read the threads a little more carefully before you fly off the handle, act like a **mods 4 teh win!!1!** and make things personal. You are a victim of being too passionate about this topic, you cant be reasoned with nor can you even see the logic in most of these posts. Guardians are asking for one thing and that is balance, currently the Zerker can tank **mods 4 teh win!!1!** near as well as a guardian but provides a greater amount of DPS. The guardian however has no nitch, or compensation for giving up DPS. Thanks for your lack of understanding and lack of reading comprehension. Its a shame you let your emotions dictate your words. Your input so far, is as useful as road kill. Let me re emphasize something, Zerkers have sustained DPS over a fight, as they should. They give up defense for this Paladins/SK's sacrifice using some weapons and a couple of other things to be able to cast heals/buffs/life taps/debuffs/LoH's ect.... Guardians have intercept (and as I mentioned earlier unless someone was sleeping and or the tank isn't doing their job this skill may be used once every two hours). Guardians sacrifice DPS, and for what I ask you? Answer this one question and I might give you an ounce of respect, that you may or may not deserve.
You see I am not asking for it to be removed, if the Zerker community feels that this is a necessary trait then by all means I have no problem with it, and support you fully. If you cant use your DPS CA (Zerker) when grouping with a guardian , then there is something wrong with the game play/mechanics/education of both guardian and Zerker in group something aint right. You Should be able to use your class defining ability while grouped with any class. This is handcuffing you for no good reason. Bottom line is SOE will address this, and either make changes or leave it as is (working as intended) these forums are for discussions of such topics, its really too bad people like the poster above that fel thte need to flame me for no good reason, cant keep emotions in check and be constructive. So many good thoughts get buried by Flaming troll's. Zzik, I applaud your effort to understand the guardians concerns, and again I will be the first to step up and support Zerkers if needed. And No nerfs are needed. Only reason I put lower agro of the Zerker CA, is because it seems mixed amongst the Zerker community about wanting this side effect to it, if in fact the side effect handcuffs your Sustained DPS then it needs to be addressed for the Zerker class alone, Guardian issues aside. Message Edited by Darton on 12-07-2004 08:21 AM
Being I've just finished my sub-class quest, I can't speak from actual experience, but this seems like a real issue with the guardian class. I choose to become a berserker with the expectation of giving up a little defensive capability to gain more offensive capability. That's the point of the choice yes? More defense vs. more offense. If a guardian can not hold aggro over any other class in a "well" played group, then there is a fundimental problem. If the blood- line of abilities causes aggro for the berserker regardless of the actions of the guardian, then a change needs to be made. A well played guardian within a knowledgable group should be able to hold the attention of the entire encounter while the rest of the group maximizes it's effectiveness. That may mean giving the guardians a much more powerful taunt, and creating a modifier to armor class to give them slightly more AC from the same piece of armor. I my opinion the game was designed to allow any fighter class to play the role of main tank. However, the guardian class was designed to be the best fit for that role. As such, they should be able to have the highest AC and they should be able to generate the most hate. Without those abilities, why ever group with a guardian? Anyway, that's just my two cents. Coldheart 18 Warrior of Befallen Message Edited by belegrath on 12-08-2004 12:51 PM
On their boards many Guardians feel that they're subclass specific styles are crap. I think that they're right. What is the point of the Guardian's subclass defining styles/buffs that protect others when others are hit if the guardian always has the aggro and no one else is getting hit? OMG... the guides are wrong... or we are confusing having aggro and taking damage... not necessarily the same thing in EQ2... at least not by design. Let's review... zerks excel at making mobz mad and tossing out fair chunks of dmg. Guardians excel at taking dmg... don't make me start harping about synergy while in group combat. ;p SOE wants to make combat more interactive and distributed than the multi-slackable hum-drum that the MMORG community is accustomed to. Our two subclasses are just experiencing culture shock IMHO.
Let the guardians guard. Thats what they were designed to do, guard and take damage. No where have i ever seen that guardians are the MT. If the guardians dont like the way there class was designed to be, reroll and be what they want. Common sense.
