You ruined the Coercer

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Nicodemius, May 31, 2022.

  1. Nicodemius Member

    Who had the genius idea to make pet_attack always target the coercer? Who had the sus idea to turn every charmed enemy into a basic melee mob? Whoever this was please bar them from putting any other 'input' into class designs for whatever is out there that hasn't been ruined yet.
    To say I was shocked at how poorly the coercer plays now in the TLP is an understatement.
    Absolutely ridiculous.
    Ozzio and Myxx like this.
  2. Zyllos Member

    The problem was there was some mobs in zones that could be charmed and allow the Coercer to solo an entire zone by themselves.

    But, the history of fixes for this has completely killed the whole point of the class, charming mobs that have something special about them and using them against the zone.

    The major changes that was implemented to stop Coercers from just soloing zones, as far as I am aware of, is the following:
    • Charmed pets don't produce aggro (which would be inline with Illusionist's personae)
    • Charmed pets don't use scripts
    • Charmed pets stats are downgraded to the master's level, losing any up arrow stats.
    Looking to match the Coercer's gameplay with Illusionist's, having balance with other classes, and still maintaining the identity of the class, I want to put feedback to Daybreak on how I view these changes to match fixing the problem and how it affects the identity and balance of the class.

    Charmed pets not producing aggro.
    I think this change was one of the latest changes introduced so that Coercer's can't just charm a strong mob and have it solo a zone with root and ranged attacks. This forces the Coercer to focus on self preservation instead of just leaving the charmed pet from taking hits.
    I view this change is okay and inline with Illusionists. Their personae don't aggro and is there to deal damage. The change, BY ITSELF, is perfectly acceptable.

    Charmed pets don't use scripts.
    This change was also to combat Coercer soloing too well, but it completely removes the draw to the class. Coercer loses out on buffs that Illusionist gains to have the ability to charm. But, since charm removes scripts from mobs, this makes the pet strength for the Coercer way weaker than the Illusionist's pet. The identity of the class should always be about charming a pet that brings something unique at the loss of better buffs and constantly having to deal with recharming.
    This one single change, in my point of view, completely destroys the Coercer's identity and even ability to be competitive to Illusionists and other classes.

    Charmed pets stats are downgraded to the master's level.
    This change is sort of the mid road of balance tweaks for Charm. While it sucks for the Coercer that charming special mobs or named mobs reduces their stats to match the Coercer, it is a balance change that is important in not allowing the Coercer to dominate everything by just charming a powerful mob. Honestly, I would suggest making certain mobs that are THIS powerful uncharmable before completely making all charmed mobs just downgrade to the same level. But, I could accept this change as is, but not in combined with any of the above.

    These three changes to Charm, when combined together, is just too much. Honestly, the mob losing any scripts the mob had is easily the worst offender and should be removed immediately, for the sake of class identity. The other two changes can stay exactly the same, but adding the scripting back into the mobs will bring so much identity back to the class while keeping Coercer's from soloing zones because the mob doesn't hold aggro itself and weakened to match the stats of the Coercer if charming above level mobs.

    As such, Daybreak, what is the view behind Coercer's current state? Does Daybreak view they are balanced and inline with Illusionists and other classes as is today? Does Daybreak view the identity of the Coercer class exists and sets itself apart from other classes with the currently worthless Charm line of spells now? I think many, including myself, would like to hear where Daybreak stands on where Coercer's balance and gameplay stands in the overall scheme of EQ2.
    Myxx, Falkira, Orionza and 1 other person like this.
  3. Nicodemius Member

    Hi Zy, thank you for your well-written and thoughtful response. I had some people in Discord explain much of this as well...and I'd agree even one of the above mentioned changes would have been a lot, but all 3 is just comical. It's like they destroyed the class with malicious intent. Like their aim was to be purposefully harsh and over-the-top.

    By systematically deleting charm, because that's what they really did--what we have now is nothing like what we had when the game was released--The Coercer's personality has been stripped away and what Daybreak has given us is a shell making the Coercer easily the worst of the 6 mages. Even on the other thread people are coping by telling others to just use a merc...like that'd be something I'd even want to do, which I can't on a TLP anyway.

    I'd be very interested in hearing Daybreak's take on this too, but I don't expect they'll say anything.
    I just can't believe how poorly designed these changes were and the fact they went live and stayed that way...WOW.
    Myxx and Orionza like this.
  4. Zyllos Member

    Yes, 100% Charm is been completely removed in terms of functionality, thus making Coercer's signature functionality also missing.

    Daybreak, is there any response on the state that Coercer is current in?
    Lovidicus, Ozzio, Myxx and 2 others like this.
  5. Bhayar Well-Known Member

    Looking at some of the class "balancing" done in the past (and many of us have had this happen personally over the years), it's like putting someone's head on an anvil and smashing it with a 20lb. sledgehammer. The goal: pop a pimple on your chin. I'm not clear on why destroying a class into oblivion is considering "fixing" a problem.
    Myxx, AOE1, Diveris and 2 others like this.
  6. Zyllos Member

    Daybreak, we need a response to the state of the Coercer class. Why is Charm in the state that it is in? There are MANY who want to know why this class is in such a poor state.
    Myxx likes this.
  7. SirNaves New Member

    I have been oscillating between rolling an Illusionist vs. Coercer to use my lvl 120 bauble and this thread certainly helped me decide lol
  8. boho Member

    You're completely wrong here. Persona Reflections absolutely generate threat as their own unique entity and can therefore tank. They're also MASSIVELY more powerful thanks to actually casting Stifles, Dazes, and Stuns.

    Coercer Charms can only autoattack for mental-based damage, and the threat is transferred directly to the Coercer. They get no special abilities.
    Ozzio likes this.
  9. boho Member

    Charm has been obliterated all because somebody found a clever use for it and managed to solo the zone. Instead of fixing the mob or the zone, they crucified the ability because it was creating too much work for them.

    Given how Persona Reflections still generate threat and cast unique abilities, no other explanation for Charm's overnerf makes any sense beyond attempting to avoid work.
  10. Zyllos Member


    Guess it has been a while since I last played Illusionist (at least 10+ years). If this is indeed true, this change to Charm is completely insane.

    Daybreak, PLEASE, give some type of feedback or update on why Charm is in the state that it is and any comment on if this can be looked at and changed?
    Nicodemius likes this.
  11. Smashey Well-Known Member

    Removing charm and giving coercers Possess Essence at level 2 instead of 65 seems like the most likely fix instead of them trying to mess with something they will keep breaking for ever.

    They will never manage to fix this issue with the inflated stats currently in the game.
    Ozzio, AOE1, Jesaine and 1 other person like this.
  12. shaunisme Member

    I feel we it should be like gaining a merc, u charm a healer npc it should heal you,,,well a bit ! dps npc = dps merc , but of course they break charm and get real mad at you! Coercer we have now is a joke, mobs ignore pet! does **** dps! Class is not what it should be, shadow of what it was.
  13. Dusano Matron of Lore and Innovation

    unfortunelly the only option is changing the possess essence into a new skill that might equalize with the perma-illy pet but in doing so it will make coercer into illusionist so it's better to restore charm and but with certain restrictions (heroic/raid) since heroic and raids are design for full groups what's even the point of having the skill to solo heroic? i'm the last person to side with the devs but if you are going heroic/raid you need to have groups for it unless the raid/heroic is lower lvl than yours....so you can solo (lower lvl heroic/raids) besides that sorry but your only option is groupin.

    just follow the coercer guidebook (support+mana battery-pet anti-threat lacking)

    personal opnion: the game needs huge improving everywhere (solo is not solo mobs hit like trunks and bosses worst) no guide in the world will change that...if you are soloing for lore or other reasons then make it possible to do so...
    if you are going for heroic then you need full group sorry...again not siding with the devs in this mostly because i'm a solo type person in many things... but sometimes i do heroics for curiosity and pfff it needs improviment too...
    raids might be a little more easier to roll because you have a entire guild to blame if you lose the match....so who cares?
  14. Travail Member

    When coercer's have been at their strongest, they never used charm. Charm in this game has always been a gimmick and not a character defining ability. Coercer has always been the strongest in utility of the 2 chanters for hate/power regen. Charm was only ever used when it was broken and coercer's could solo the game with it. A well played coercer has never relied upon charm. When coercer's had their spotlight moment as top dps in the game with crazy utility, they didn't even have charm on the hot bar. You are playing in vanilla at the moment, things will get better I promise.

    What I see here is.. I can't charm a mob and solo a zone or top a parse anymore so it was nerfed and now the class is broken! You want to be able to top parses and solo stuff with a pet, play a summoner. This class is by no means destroyed into oblivion as some have stated.
    Jesaine and Twyla like this.
  15. Rayzor Member

    Long time coercer player here who swapped to illy with the new TLE launch because of charm's weaknesses.
    That has never been their optimal playstyle - it's what players who don't make the most out of their class do. They can still solo as well as summoners and illusionists if played well even with the broken charm. I think an illy and coercer at the same skill level would result in the illy winning in everything from power regen, solo ability, damage, and the value of buffs provided. The coercer helps a little with threat management but that's not very valuable.

    I thiink the comment above on smashing the head instead of smashing the pimple is the right comparison. Nerfing charm pet damage, kit/abilities and aggro together is too much. The simplest solution after this damage/kit nerf is to revert the aggro nerf. Let them generate some aggro. It fits in line with the coercer's kit being the aggro management master. Still won't be as strong as the illy pet in any respect but will be more useful than a CC ability and something to help proc Hostage.
  16. AOE1 Well-Known Member

    Gee, you would think that the opinion is that everyone else getting nerfed to oblivion is ok but don't touch the coercer's charm. We all, all classes, get hit with that nerf bat and some more than others. At times I have seen classes nerfed to the point that people stopped playing that class for a very long time and that hurt groups and raiders. You have to take your hit like we all had to take our hits. Relearn how to play your class. I had to relearn to play mine 3 times over the years due to the damage done by devs with that nerf bat. You can relearn yours as well. This "lets make all classes equal and alike" isn't going to change anytime soon. It just keeps getting worse.
  17. Jesaine Well-Known Member

    Interesting conversation here.

    My current main is a 120 Coercer. I'll agree that Charm is screwed up now, but after you get past 65 and get possess essence, it doesn't much matter anyway. As it is, she hits hard enough that I can pretty much pick between using a Merc OR Posess Essence in the early areas of Vetrovia. The vast majority of her spells are only at Adept level also
  18. Tharrakor Well-Known Member

    I was also planning to play Coercer on the TLE, started it and lvled it to 50 and then i betrayed to Illusionist and i immediately felt a lot stronger.
    Coercer is just straight up worse then the illu at this point. Illu even has the better buffs of the two.
    They could massively boost the base casting speed of charm and we can treat it as a safer mez, not very exciting but it would still be more useful then it is now.
    With todays patch they are fixing an issue with Personae Reflection not being able to proc procs such as Synergism, this probably include grp buffs such as dissonant note proc from troubs (i assume) as well, putting the illusionist even further ahead of the coercer.

    Just give me a reason to play Coercer over illu again DBG. Please!
  19. Jrox Well-Known Member

    Is this whole conversation in relation to the TLE status? On live Coercers are destroying Illy's right now...
  20. Mountbatten Well-Known Member

    From the OP:
    Illusionists definitely have the leg-up on coercers in T5 in terms of raw DPS, but I think that's been the case since forever. Coercers do still provide some decent buffs, and deserve a raid spot. Charm was always going to be an awful ability to balance and deal with. It was always either going to be ridiculously OP, or neutered to near irrelevance. No inbetween.

    I don't think life is that bad as a T5 coercer right now. You're not gonna be topping parses, sure, but you can still do decent. I dunno, maybe I should betray just for fun and see if it is actually as bad as people are suggesting.
    Jesaine likes this.