You can't Tank

Discussion in 'Monk' started by ARCHIVED-ServalCat, May 4, 2005.

  1. ARCHIVED-RoninDF Guest

    I don't mean this to bash the previous post at all so don't take this wrong. But I believe showing you can take on a solo mob maybe 1-2 levels about your own is not a proper example of ability to tank.

    Now, What I have seen that Impresses me and shows that at best classes still need alot of balancing. Is the fact that those ^^ lvl34 Bee's in EL, I have seen a Mystic tanking them solo. He was lvl36 which means they are blue ^^ heroic mobs to him and he stood toe to toe with them and strait up owned them.

    Another example of unblance in game atm, is when I was passing through TS other day. Witnessed a Templar tanking a ^^ lvl22 Skeleton in the dead river. Sadly to my amazement, his duo partner was a 21 Guardian dual wielding. Now ok with that info your probably thinking the Templar must have been higher level then the Mob. I thought so as well, but he was only lvl20! Level 20! Thats nuts, not even a good monk or Bruiser can toe to toe with something 2 levels higher, specially Heroic class without atleast getting beat on pretty bad.

    Seeing things like this at best disapoint me, not because of the inbalance, but cause others who happen to see it also gather the idea and pass it along much the same. Why get a tank? Heck we got one tank, why we need two in group? Why even get a tank? We got a healer who can tank in his heavy armor?

    Ask yourself this. When facing the mobs you face most day to day, do you find yourself lacking sometimes? WOuld you trade off some dps for more tanking ability? Or in effect, would you rather them put Brawler classes into thier respectful place as a true scout class. Light armor, better tanking ability scouts with moderate DPS. To me I'd almost love this ability. ATM we lack a true place in my thoughts. We suffer the worst of both worlds. Lowest tanking ability of all tank classes and in some cases lower DPS as well. Just seems to me we are more fit to be a true scout, with Feign death instead of Pathfinding and tanking ability inplace of big utility buffs or the higher end DPS.

    Don't get me wrong, I love being a Bruiser. I can tank if I need to, I can take one heck of a beating doing it also time to time. Then othertimes seems mobs can touch me. I've played on several occasions when it seems like I get hit every other time the mob swings, and get hit hard. Then there are times when I accidently over agro, and end up tanking 500 times better then the tank the mob was on.

    I'm not yet of raiding level, but I'm starting to see my place on raids.

    I'm learning when to hold back my attacks, and when to unleash them and pound out my damage in a massive wave.

    I do have one gripe about my class, which is namely our skills we do offer to groups and raids, which offer the most use, we can't use. Can't use my Bruisers Throat Punch on epic targets, cause it stifles. Can't use my Haymaker attack either, cause it carries a 3 second stun. Whats is funny, is I can Intimidate a epic target. Why take away the whole skill for one effect, instead should just make the mobs resistant to those types of effects and still leave those damage attacks open to us. those two attacks when on a epic class mob, effectively take away over 300 damage from us unless we resort to going to our older grey skills to still do damage. I do that but its a big reduction in our ability.

    Are Brawlers tanks? yeah, short term we hold probably the highest tanking ability of all tank classes, for fights 20 seconds or less in length. In sustained fights, we come in last place.

    Just think its time we was given the use of all our skills instead of holding us back. I mean it stands to reason, brawlers are Focused honed fighting machines, skilled in thier arts, and trained and hardened, stead fast in our ability and should be able to do those things to anyone we face, cause we have train and honed our skills to allow us to do just that.
  2. ARCHIVED-RoninDF Guest

    Stupid double post again . . . silly net

    Message Edited by RoninDF on 05-08-2005 03:45 PM
  3. ARCHIVED-Dandelize Guest

    Is this any better?
    Of course its a 32^^ only two level aboves me. The lowest at that camp. We also dropped a few Tempered Clays 34-35^^ with no problem. That was nice, 5 levels above me, hard hits, tons of hitpoints, I tanked it fine. It doesnt look like my healers are hurting for mana. Throughout the entire night, we chain pulled with healers picking their nose while the dps were choking for power. And I kept pulling even still, with out our combat powers it was still better for us to keep killing with just our melee weapons. I tanked adds fine, and never had a problem holding aggro with two equal level swashbucklers in my group.
    I the problem I see mostly out of monks is, they love that [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] Gi. They dont want to let it go. They dont pay much attention to their equipment. Then were looking at some guardians who are all over having higher mitgiation and keeping their armor at least crafted in quality. I seen a level 50 monk in their T3 quest armor the other day, of course they dont tank very well...

    If you can tell, just like a guardian would, I pay much attention to my equipment. And often I'm chosen to tank over a common pick up plate tank, unless they got their full suit of feysteel and higher level then me. Then Im better off pulling up another stance and laying down some damage, which I also do very well.
    The earlier picture I thought was just cool. 63% mitigation is good for a monk solo. Though it was Hero's armor =p.

    I have a guardian also, lvl 40. And I play a Templar 45. I've seen tanking through many different viewpoints.

    Message Edited by Dandelize on 05-08-2005 05:17 PM
  4. ARCHIVED-woode Guest

    guardian w/ 60% avoidance, 60% mitigation.. thats 120% (average mid 30s)
    monk w/ 80% avoidance, 40% mitigation.. thats 120% (average mid 30s)

    seems equal to me.. someone should put a parser of damage-taken over a couple hours of a guardian and a monk both nicely equipped. tomorrow i will find a nice group and parse it for a couple hours.
  5. ARCHIVED-Dandelize Guest

    Well a guardian with 60/60 is using a shield...
    Thats something to take into consideration too, they've already sacrificed damage to some degree
  6. ARCHIVED-zaboron Guest

    It's not that easy!
    Guardian avoids 60%, so 40% of the time he gets hit.
    Of those 40%, he mitigates 60%, leaving 16% of the mob's raw dps output actually hurting him.
    A Monk avoids 80%, 20% of the hits get through.
    40% get mitigated, so only 12% of the mob's damage get through. In theory, we should even be able to tank better than Guardians (with the numbers from the example taken from above, but those are quite correct most of the time).
    Even better, we don't get stifled/stunned/feared as much as guardians as we aren't hit that much.
  7. ARCHIVED-TimeWalker Guest

    Ok I've just got to speak up as a 44 templar I'm no tank not at least in the light of a ber, pallie guard etc... But I quite often tank in groups because I'm a WELL outfitted templar my mit and somewhat avoidance is way higher then many tanks in my level range.
    I group with a 43 guard all the time and >I< pull and take the first hit and let him taunt it/them off me and I always tank magic mobs while he does dps I dont have taunts and I dont want em.. but templars CAN tank it's all a matter of what your targeting and who is best SUITED to the task not who has the biggest ummmmmm EGO
    It all boils down to this pick the best tank in the group for the mob your targeting... not who is SUPPOSEDLY the tank in the group if I can resist all the spells and the tank can loose half his hp to the same attack I'm gonna tank because it's the smarter choice not the guy with the biggest ummmm HEAD
  8. ARCHIVED-Cronon Guest

    That's not necessarily true. At one point, I was level 21 hunting level 27 lieutenant skels over by RoV for a day. I kept commenting to my guild at the time that I just couldn't believe that I was taking them. It wasn't taking everything I had either.
  9. ARCHIVED-ServalCat Guest

    OK,, thanks for all your replys from my original post. It does sound like Templars are unbalanced in the way of being able to be a very good healer and being bale to tank. Something wrong with this picture? If all players knew this when they first created a character - I think we all should make a Templar,, since they can heal great and tank. Why would you choose any other race. So, lets all create new characters and make a Templar (its the ultimate best class). Don't need any other class. In fact why doesn't SOE just have Templars to choose from? Heck you don't need any other class,,, Templars can do it all?
  10. ARCHIVED-RoninDF Guest

    The mobs you are refering to outside ROV are solo con encounters, not comparable to a Heroic con encounter. All Two up ^^ Mobs are much much stronger then any solo con of comparable level.

    And as to what the Templar said above, Congrats, you can tank, for now . .. WHen next live update hits with changes to parry I wouldn't try it then. Besides, Templar are not designed to tank, they are designed to be able to absorb short term agro due to over healing or adds. They shouldn't be a tank at all, atleast not in a balanced enviroment.

    Now question in your case where you find yourself with a tank that is taking alot of damage from a certain damage type, well more then likely its either the level of the tank, or thier equipment. Tanks in general suffer greatly at 3 key level ranges. 19-21 is the first, where your starting AQ armor and trying to buy up temp armor till your into your AQ armor. Then again at 29-31, you are faced with slightly less useful player made armor till 32-33 but also if don't go to it from your AQ armor you miss out on valuable stats . Again from 39-41ish, same as the 29-31 stage, new armor isn't up to par and old is lower stats. This is where priests and casters, even scouts have advantages. You can put 10str 10agi on a paper sack, put a scout inside it and you have a well equiped scout. Same for priests or casters. Try that with a tank, and your going to need a mob to clean up your group, cause a mob that was pulled just spilt you all.

    Not saying however that its not ice to see Priests tanking time to time, Myself I'm glad that they can, cause I've seem some no agro having tanks out there in my time. But, to effectively need another class over a tank for any reason, is IMO a bit unbalanced. Maybe armor should round out faster for tanks to let them have suitable tanking ability for each new armor range a little faster. I mean if your wearing the best you can buy at level 30, its probably a little lacking compared to what your old armor was mitigation wise. This is unless you are rich and can pay up for Rare crafted armors.

    Anyhow just clarifing. . .
  11. ARCHIVED-ServalCat Guest

    I am a 31 Monk,, what armor would be best for me to MT and solo? I love the AQ look but know I can't keep forever. Should I be wearing quest armor (Zek, EL)? What player crafted armor is there? Should I wait till lvl 32 fro player crafted? Also can anyone guide me as far as spell/skill upgrades? Meaning this kick skill replaces this kick spell, etc?
  12. ARCHIVED-Dandelize Guest

    I play a 45 Templar, and Tanking is not a feasible option. Throught the whole fight, against something near even to me, I will be chain casting heals on myself. Sure by the end, the group has killed it, but I'm out of mana. Sure I tanked it, but I'd rather be near full power to chain pull more exp.
  13. ARCHIVED-TimeWalker Guest

    I think you guys are misreading that I was saying in a round about way.. I was saying you should pick the best tank for the mob not just the normal class of tank. I take damage like a mofo if I am put up against a clay because all their damage is physical but put me up agaist a lizard neophite or warder or mender and I shine because their damage is all magic which is resist

    True story:
    Yesterday I was running around feerrott doing a bit of collecting I rode in just the wrong direction out by the eye.. I thought I had picked up 4 but I had cut the corner across 3 groups ... well one managed to weaken? me and I slowed to a crawl... I was after all out collecting and had boxes with me so I was so overburdened that I couldn't really move.. so it was time to fight 12 lizards at once So I throw up a reactive and go to HO'ing on em.. Sure I ran out of power around 9 or 10 but I didn't die and well frankly it surprised even me to still be standing there afterwards but I was.

    Sorry back to what I was saying about the right tank for the job... my tank friends mental magic divine etc resistances are 500-800 lower then mine which gives me the advantage over him in doing mobs that cast he gets hit I resist ... so you tell me who would be the best tank :)

    And NO I don't wanna be MT I wanna be a templar a healer who can take some hits and not drop like a mage..errr fly
  14. ARCHIVED-Raahl Guest

    Just a quick comment on the original post.
    Perhaps the Templar thought the group needed more DPS and you'd fill that role fine, while he soaked up some damage?
    Not that you couldn't have tanked. I've been know to pass the tanking job to a monk a number of times and had no problem with it.
    The only problem with the Templar tanking is him getting interupted in grouped mob encounters.
    Where were you hunting by chance? And simply dropping from the group is a tad bit rude don't you think?
  15. ARCHIVED-Morrolan V Guest

    Serval, to answer your questions later in the thread:
    I am a 31 Monk,, what armor would be best for me to MT and solo? I love the AQ look but know I can't keep forever. Should I be wearing quest armor (Zek, EL)? What player crafted armor is there? Should I wait till lvl 32 fro player crafted?
    I bought player-made etched (non-rare), then to Emerald Hide (Zek quested, usable at 35), then to Enchanted Thicket Woven (drops from Lamias in EL, usable at 38). Continued to wear the Emerald occasionally when tanking for a couple of levels, as it has much more mitigation than the Thicket stuff. Still have never seen a set of armor short of raid drop that has better stats than the Thicket, though. I did wear the Chainweave Gi until 32.
    Also can anyone guide me as far as spell/skill upgrades? Meaning this kick skill replaces this kick spell, etc?
  16. ARCHIVED-ServalCat Guest

    Raahl,, as I posted in replys I was very tired been though peeps saying I can't tank all day and the Templar was being snotty about the whole thing, so I left the group. BTW the group just formed and we were getting rdy to fight. So I don't consider this to be rude (being that the templar was being rude at first and he was 3 levels lower than me).
  17. ARCHIVED-bonesbro Guest

    Morrolan, do you mind if I steal this for inclusion in the FAQ? :)
  18. ARCHIVED-Morrolan V Guest

    But of course, Bones! With my compliments. One correction: went back and looked at the stats on the Gi. It goes blue at 30. I think I wore it for one level after, but not more.
  19. ARCHIVED-Timaarit Guest

    Your true story proves nothing about templars as tanks. I have been able to solo single groups of those lizards with my templar from level 38. And you are level 44 so I am not suprised at all that you survived.

    With my lvl 40 templar, I will let anyone I group with tank if they want. Occasionally when I group with low 30's, they put me to tank after I grab add and can take the beating till the main mob is down. But this usually is the case only with heroics I can either outright solo or get at least close. I never tank heroics that are onle level lower than me or of higher than that. I can tank two levels lower heroics if I know that the group will beat it down before I run out of power and health. But anything else is suicide for me as templar. I can keep others alive even when fighting orange heroics but not myself.
  20. ARCHIVED-Raahl Guest

    No where in your post did I see where the templar was rude. All they said was that they would tank.
    To me you were rude. But perhaps I'm reading too much into your original post.
    I responded back and said "I will not be an off tank to a Templar", "I am a tank not you".