So I was in a pickup group last night, me (30 Monk), 27 Templar and 30 Wizard,,,so Templar says to us OK guys I'll MT you guys do dps. I responded back and said "I will not be an off tank to a Templar", "I am a tank not you". I left the group. Just thought you guys on this board would get a chuckle out of that.
That mentality is hard to keep out of sight. While I am not end-game raid level just yet, from many accounts that I've seen, monks can't tank the level 50+ ^^^ raid mobs (of course, if any monk would like to say differently, I'm all ears!). But, because Guardians are the "end-game tank," people seem to think that makes them the only tank. SK/berserker/Pally are just secondary to them...and we shouldn't tank at all. I've had a blast tanking both orange mobs in a full group and blue mobs in a duo at 45. I need no secondary tank, just a group that is smart and willing to see my hp drop by 1/3 after the initial "BOOM" from a mob.
While it may not mean much, I tanked CT last night (just the entrance stuff) at lvl 38 (had 42templar and 41ranger with me), and the templar said I did great for being a lower level tank. The ranger did steal aggro from time to time, but overall, it went well, and no deaths (only one time we had to run away)
Hi Guys, ever since I hit level 20 this is all I've ever heard, "Monks cant tank", Only real time I end up having an issue with this is when I'm in pick-up groups, when I'm hunting with guildies they all know what Monks are all about, they know how I fight and expect to see a drop in health. I'll also point out I'm the only Monk so far in my guild *grin* And after months of everyone seeing the amount of steady ruin I smack down on mobs people in my guild are making Monk alts and say they love it. Sure when I'm in a group and a guardian steps up to be MT I'll step aside, hell he can have at it for all I care let me sit back and grab the adds and practice my Kung-fu *giggle*, But its the pick up groups that can really give us a bad name these ppl who dont understand what a Monk can and cant do. For the above poster I would have said sure Mr. Templar you can tank *grin* Then I would have simply stole argo from him and tanked it to show that I could, if he was slow on a heal I would suddenly feel the urge to "Play dead" and let him tank it then leave.
I responded back and said "I will not be an off tank to a Templar", "I am a tank not you". I left the group. Well ServalCat the next time you get a templar that says you cant tank and he wants to tank... take the chance to educate him. Say ok, Lets go. then after the first pull, you out dps him, out taunt him, and down right out tank him. Will he really be able to out agro you? Hell no Whats he gonna do? taunt the mob off? not.. and once the mob starts hitting you whats he gonna do? not heal you? not.. after 10 or so pulls like that he will understand his place and he will know that you are the MT. Hell if you fight the right mobs, pull agro off him and then say ok I will MT and you TEMPLAR do DPS since I wont be needing heals or you can even let him pull every time and if he cant hold agro then be like hmm why cant ya hold agro over me do ya think???? Cus I have Taunts - Like a MT should. Even if he gets pissed and leaves.. Im sure he will think twice next time a monk says they want to MT. but to walk away and not educate well.. It just lets the "Plate Is Great" thoughts continue. And it will continues all the way up the ladder to 50 if no one SHOWS them different. I have talked, grouped and seen people who are 40+ and when they ask who is the main tank and I say me they go Monks dont tank. Then 20 pulls later they go OMG I cant believe it your actually doing a good job. I've had players in my group knowingly and purposely not buff me while I MT and try their hardest to pull agro from me while I tank, trying to prove that Monks cant tank. I have out tanked SK/Bruiser/Pally/Gaurds/Zerks in many different situations. Just the other day, I joined a pick up group in Runnyeye (Mob lvls 33-43 ish) and the cleric said ok now we just need a tank. I replied Exolia <<<< MT mind you I was lvl 40 and Runnyeye is a cake walk for a lvl 40 with a group. The main healer said hmm no we got a Tank coming a 38 Pally so I said hmm ok. About 20 mins in the pally was getting beat, not holding agro but he was alive. We got to the BrewMieser lvl 39 Heroic (named mob next to the 200 goblin quest) and the pally pulled him. Well 2 mins into the fight the pally was doing ok with about 95% Health and then he was insta dead. and before I could say I got this the scout evac'ed. He checked his logs and found out he got hit for 3000+ dmg. On the way back down (Me tanking of course since the pally was dead) I said let me give it a shot. The cleric was up in arms.. OMG do you see how much he got hit for etc etc your gonna die. the scout was like we cant do it till evac is back up. The general attitude in group was well if she wants to die and we evac.. let her. After rezzing the pally and the pally now dropping his buffs on me. I tanked the mob and at most took a shot for about 1800 rather then the 3000+ the pally took. The rest of the night I tanked, no questions asked. No deaths, Held Agro no problem, All walked away with Xp, Loot and Fun. but more importantly EVERYONE in that group that doubted if monks can tank, Now know we can and cant deny it. All in all Cat. The next time a Templar tells you to off tank to him or anyone else and you want to tank, Take advantage of the situation and prove your MT material.
Thanks for all your replys. Yes, I could of stayed in grp and proved him wrong, but it was late, got tired of hearing that I wasnt even considered to MT (with no other tank in grp, like in past grps) and his attitude just pissed me off and I left. I made a Monk cause I thought that all warrior classes could MT in different ways (at least that is what SOE told us when game was launched). But I have read alot with the differences of Guardians, Zerkers, Monks, etc. for high end game raids I feel that I picked the wrong class to be MT in end game.
Ok, on this subject I have a slightly different opinion based from the fact that I'm a Bruiser and not a Monk. so here goes.... Monks that I have personally grouped with, do tend to tank on average, very well. Some have issues with power use but other then that, its a decent and stable tanking class. However, I'm mostly glad you all say "Monks" and not "Brawlers" can tank. Cause when it comes down to it, me as a Bruiser can take also, but if there is a second tank class in my group, even one a level or two lower, general rule of thumb for me is to let them tank. I do this for a very good reason as well. Monks come with Utility buffs for the group that raise defensive stats alot more then Bruisers can. Where a bruiser shines is in the fact that we debuff with some attacks. Namely at my level "35" I can consistantly keep most normal Xp mobs Stifled and melee debuffed throughout the entire fight minus a few seconds between aplications. These debuffs come from secondary efects of my attacks, two actually come to mind, Eye gouge and Throat Punch. Eye Gouge = -20 skill in Slashing, Crushing and Piercing. This effectively lowers the mobs melee effectiveness by 4 levels or 20 points. This can turn a lvl40^^ into the same effective dmg as a lvl36^^ this skill has a 60 second recharge so its applied every fight mostly, and let me tell you, its noticable when its in effect to. Throat Punch = Stifle or Silence however you want to look at it. It removes the targets ability to use special attacks. Which as we all know, most mobs do the biggest portion of thier damage from special attacks, just like all player classes. The effect is roughly 10 second duration, with a skill that recycles in 10 seconds. Given lag you will have this effect on a mob roughly 1 second after it wears off, so most mobs tend to get in atleast 1 special attack every 10 seconds instead of thier normal combo's of them. Also with a Bruisers stuns and such, if you watch your recycle timer on Throat Punch you can stun for 1-3 seconds just as its about to recycle effectively removing that 1 per 10 second special for most targets. Ok, so why do I perfer to not tank even if I'm the highest level tank class in group? I'll explain with notes from a fight in a Log file. Paraphrasing to save space and time. Fight is being tanked by a 33 Paladin, I'm a 35 bruiser DPS roll w/ debuffs. The fight took place in Runnyeye, some lvl 37^^ named Mino. 1 healer in group, and two casters, with Pal tank and Bruiser DPS. That Mino on average can hit for 200-600+ with its special attacks, on a 33 paly thats roughly 1/4 of your HP per special if it lands for the 600+ which it would due to your level being below the mobs by a few. We had good DPS with casters and myself pooring out damage so the fight lasted about 1 minute. Pally Pulled the mob and taunted once to gain solid agro, the taunts was via his group buffs from a hotkey, which supply more agro then any one single taunt. What then took place was No attacks was made, instead I used my Intimidate skill to Stun the mob for 15 seconds, which allowed me to stop him before he could reach the group and land his first atack on the pally. I then steped behind him and Landed Eye gouge, to break the stun. This set in effect his effective level was like a lvl33^^ for melee damage instead of lvl37^^ that he was. Soon as that landed Throat punch went off from que'd attacks, and now he was stifled for 10 seconds, All the rest joined in and the beat down started. During the entire fight, the mob mainly landed melee only attacks when they could hit due to his melee skill being debuffed, and the entire fight he only landed 4 special attacks on the Paly, the Templar with us used a total of 4 heals the entire fight, even when I accidently stole agro with mob at 1/4 his HP. The fight would have been alot harder if I had tanked, and tried to land my ddebuffs from the front as my chance to hit drops about 50% due to mob level and fact of blocks, parry, etc. All in all there are some times when tanking is good but times when steping back and letting some one else do it is better. Even a Templar can hold agro well with buffs and heals over a good tank, when they time them to land before a tank can land taunts too. You'll find they mobs you can't pull off a healer or caster is cause of those buffs landing which in effect can out agro any taunt if landed before a mob reaches the group just after a pull with ranged attack. Those times that Templar with plate armor can effectively become a better tank letting Brawler classes shine in thier DPS role, taking mobs out faster then if the Brawler's tanked, so in effect, observe the mobs you'll be fighting, take note your skills and if you as a group use all you have to its fullest, the highest level tank class or tank class in general may not be the best suited to tank the encounter. Its all situational, there are times when other classes can out tank you, don't get mad about it, instead use that as a focus point to then use your abilities to thier fullest to help the situation. I can't speak for all on this but I know as a Bruiser I hate being claimed a tank, then scorned for not performing to someone standards, IE that all tanks should tank equally. I am a tank class, but in no way equa; to the others. I am a special breed of tanks, I can only tank well when my debuffs land and effectively lower the effectiveness of the target and keep them from performing. Guardians are a breed thier own in thier ability to just absorb damage, however not everyone can act like a Guardian and a monk or Bruiser that tries will fail. We tank by out performing the target and using our abilities to thier fullest. Anyhow this is my views on the matter. . . hope it gives a little insight to how some play thier classes, and think.
Nice point RoninDF.. I gotta say I was impressed when I saw two lvl 35 bruisers duo'ing the named lvl 34 heroic Tempered Clay Golem in Varsoon. specially after I saw plenty of groups lvl 35ish get wiped by the same mob.
nail on the head so to speak. that is the mentality and one of the reasons we are not seen as tanks. i would venture to say that on the rare occassion we do get smacked by the mob, especially a CA from it, people throw their hands up and cry for a platie not realizing we avoided upwards of 75-80% of the mobs attacks until then. but, meh... i will concede that monks tanking end-game lvl 50 epic mobs may not be the best course of action, but lets face it... most of the community (not speaking about you hardcores on this forum) in EQ2 is not close to end game anything. end game is only one small part of this game... the journey there is most of it. just sad that monks are stereotyped so early on and it is very hard to break that mentallity in regular leveling sessions making that journey and those opinions of us as tank rougher than most.
One of my in-game friends is a Templar. He certainly tanks when he's solo as well as being the tank when he's grouping with our Enchanter friend. When I (40 monk) am in the group though, it is crystal clear that I am the best tank out of the three of us. Everytime I've watched the Templar tank, he's having to fiddle with healing himself every round or two. Of course I have been in groups with other Fighter classes that tank way better than I can as a Monk. While I'd certainly love to tank better (who wouldn't?), I'm pretty happy with the balance monks have between tank and damage compared to other classes. That is certainly hilarious though that a Templar would want to be the tank on purpose in a group with a Monk! :smileyhappy:
Just wanted to chime in here cause even though I am a Guardian I am really getting annoyed with the mentality of players when it comes to the 6 tank types. Some background, I almost always 99%of the time just group with some friends..I am the only fighter so there is never an issue over who is MT.. (ok the Fury tries but its not really her fault =P) Anyhow, last night I joined a pickup DFC raid hoping to finish off some heritage quests...I was watching as the 2 groups were formed and when it was time to start we had me 44 Guardian, 44 Pally and 40 Guardian as the only fighters...So naturally everyone else started in with asking who is going to be MT....I expected the raid leader to ask Pally and Myself to decide but NO the raid channel was just spammed with "Wulfgarr of course", "Wulfgarr right"?, etc. I doubt anyone even bothered to examine the two of us to figure out who was best equiped, etc. Hell I doubt they would even know what to look for =P That REALLY pissed me off and although it was I that would make the best choice I honestly wanted to say..."Nope I dont want to tank, i feel like being DPS today, ill back up the Pally". =P I know from now on when I am in a situation where I and some other fighter(s) are of equal level, etc...Im gonna /tell with them and we are gonna decide who is MT...Screw the rest of the idiots that still think they are in EQ1. Ok sorry for the slight thread hijack but I thought my experience was somewhat pertinent to this discussion, just from a different point of view. I am a guardian that is getting pissed at the automatic assumption that I am MT =P
i just tanked the everfrost boat ride at 34 with 1 healer. i was chosen to tank over a 35 zerker even (every spot of my gear is all legendary/fabled cept weapons that add 10str/agi vs zerker had AQ armor etc lol) so its not always ignorant newbs.. just 99.9% of the time. as to templars wanting to tank.. iv been in that situation probably 10-15 times now. i usually leave the group and they /tell me that im a newb. sometimes scouts want to tank over me even.. Message Edited by woode on 05-04-2005 02:56 PM
Ewww.. AQ armor still at 35? I wont tank if any of my armor is less than white..it isn't fair to the group or the healer... There are a lot of misconceptions out there, I have even gotten invited to a group with my monk because of the AQ armor look... then in group chat after "now all we need is a tank".... Oh, I tanked for that group
Anytime someone thinks they can out tank me... I just taunt and show them the Truth... Cept on those 53+Triple up raid mobs (Ouch) !
A healer can easily prove that monks can't tank by simply not healing them.. You die giving monks a bad name. (rerolled a guard)
A healer refusing to heal is stupid, and thats when, as the evil and down right stubern Bruiser that I am, stands up for us Brawlers and says ok fine . . You tank it . . and promptly Feigns' . . . Not really what I do though have thought about it several times. However it is the players right to stand up for what they believe, if a healer doesn't want you to tank, so be it. I'll step aside and let someone else tank. I can tank when I have to, Short term tanking isn't bad with rate which mobs die most times. But I'll be danged if I let someone tank who I know can't handle it. SPecially if its something I would fear to tank. That doesn't happen alot, I regularly am accidently stealing agro off my normal groups tank, And doing so, means I'm tanking something 3-5 levels higher then I am. Sure I can hit them fine, with my stance I use though in DPS role, I have raised level for melee and lowered level for defense, I crank out a ton of damage, in bursts just big enough to pace dps with retaining agro on the tank. If I do grab agro, I press my bob and weave as fast as I can to get it to fire off, and most times pray that the Orange ^^ isn't going to run over me. Can we tank, Yes, long term fight tank? Not really Can be done, but why waste the effort for something easier done by someone else not to mention, waste my damage abilities. If i'm the best man for the job, I step up, other wise, let the better man have his momment, and hehe try to keep agro on him, yes i know thats hard sometimes. Oh . . side point, how dare anyone in my groups tell me not to peel off the assist to pickup other mobs. I dang well best be picking them up, I can mez, fear, and out right own some mobs in a matter of seconds, If i'm not picking them up, well I just don't feel I'm doing my job . . .
42 paly here throwing my 2 cp in. When grouped with any other fighters approximately my level or one level higher I almost ALWAYS insist on being the MT. Sometimes when they are 2 levels above me. There are 3 reasons for this. 1) i suck at dps, while all other classes of fighter are better at it than me 2) I buy rare player crafted gear and can take a hell of a beating 3) We can heal somewhat, and its better to have your tank taking heal aggro than to have your dps getting more aggro... People really need to look at equipment/stats more when selecting main tank. So often I get the assumption that the guardian in the group will be the MT if he is equal or slightly higher than me, when in reality I should be the MT. Case in point: me at lvl 42, guardian at level 43, and Illusionist at 36 take on a named mob that is blue to me. Guardian says that he will tank "they barely hit him". I gave him Grant of Armor, and buffed him up and he still went splat in a hurry. Next I said let me try it, alas sucess. Upon further study he was wearing fulginate to my ebon and feysteel (still better than fulginate in early 40's) and he wasn't using a shield (duh heavy armor classes should always use a shield when MT, unless group has way 2 many healers and not enough dps. zero healers = use shield). When someone asks who the main tank is, if you haven't played with both fighters recenly, make you you inspect them before answering...might also ask them who WANTS to MT....
