[p]I would just like to give a big thank you to SoE for taking one of the things that makes monks useful still, and giving it to guardians.[/p][p] [/p][li]Agility 5 - Dragoon's Reflexes: Improved reuse speed from 10 minutes to 3 minutes, and also grants temporary non-direct area effect avoidance.[/li][p] [/p][p] Thats from the test update notes... for those of you that don't know, Dragoon's Reflexes is an ability that lasts 12 seconds... it gives guardians 100% chance to parry incoming attacks... sound familiar? oh yah, and now its on a 3 minute instead of a 10 minute recast... sooo[/p][p] An ability that gives you 100% avoidance, on a 3 minute recast... sound familiar much?[/p][p] Thank you SoE for making monks even more useless.[/p]
Hamoto@Antonia Bayle wrote: Moreover, war tree has 40% aoe frontal aoe from main hand weapon now. LOL, they are not powerful enough! On the contrary, to get our aoe proc from 8% to 16%, the damage of proc is reduced. LOL. I really can't understand what EQ2 designer are thinking about.
The only update we get is crane flock recast time down to 3 min instead of 5. Everything else is just a joke. 40% ae autoattack for warriors, tsunami, and their double attack is only reduced from 70 to 60%. I'm envious, plain and simple. We have absolutely nothing compared to warriors. They could have give us something useful with the str line, but nooo, 6% more dmg on combat arts... Seriously, is there someone playing a monk in soe dev team ?
Add in the breast plaste with the tsunami effect, they can actually do it twice as much as us. freakin ridiculous.
Strength 3 - Relentless Punches: Renamed to Eye of the Tiger: No longer requires unarmed. Increases all combat art damage by 0.75% per rank. say goodbye to our best AA for soloing.
[p]How about this one to add to the plate parody: Bard AA enhancments got even more uber. It's insane. [/p][li]Stamina 4 - Fortissimo: Grants your group melee and ranged doubleattack at 1% per rank, and 2% per rank for allies that have a shield equipped.[/li][p] [/p]
[p]I'm all for the mit bonus in the str line (assuming it is a decent value of mit per rank), but losing double attack in favor 0.75% CA damage per rank is a huge letdown. I'd rather they had replaced the double attack with the mit bonus and left the riposte in there to have str be a dedicated tanking line.[/p][p]When other fighters can get 40% multi-attack, I have no idea why we are only given 16% with reduced damage :/[/p][p] I really hope some of these numbers are adjusted up before this goes live. I think the CA one should be at least 2% per rank or 0.75% per rank along with 0.5% to 1% riposte per rank. The multi attack should be adjusted much higher as well. I hope that the mit bonus is about 100 per rank, otherwise it will not be very useful. It would be nice for monks to get some sort of stoneskin since all other fighters including bruisers get access to it and tsunami is given to many fighters and some scouts in various forms...[/p][p]Enough of my late night ramblings. I'm excited for many of these changes, but some of the monk ones have me asking why when I comapre them to what other fighters get.[/p][p]Hopefully someone who has a monk on test can post mouse-over screenshots of the new AA choices.[/p]
[p]So they reduce our double attack from 76% to 60%, yes folks, an actual reduction, not an improvement. Still better than monks? Yes, but they also reduced the block % as well, so the descrepency between a Buckler and Tower Shield will be more noticeable now...ie. less avoidance.[/p][p]They improve the recast of Dragoon Reflexes end ability dramatically and increase frontal attack % for multiple targets....although all of 5% us end-game Guardians actually use the Agility line and trust me, these changes don't make it anymore appealing. I'll stick with my crits and double-attacks, thanks.[/p][p]Nothing wrong with making some comparisons, but they're worthless without context. I wholeheartedly agree that Monks need some improvements to make them more viable in raids, but mindlessly comparing your AAs to ours without context proves nothing.[/p]
[p]You get your lost block on the buckler line back as additional riposte, which 1) gives you extra parry from behind and 2) increases dps/multitarget passive aggro when tanking. Even if the extra riposte is contested, you are looking at losing a whopping 2ish% avoidance overall. If it is not, it is an effective minor gain due to the order that avoidance types are checked (parry/riposte before block).[/p][p]Take your former 76% double attack (now reduced to 60%) and change it to a 6% increase in CA damage... That is what brawlers got (96% double attack with empty hands changed to +6% CA damage with no weapon restriction).[/p][p]Multi-attack is a great way for brawlers (or any tank) to gain better aoe aggro control. Brawlers spend the same AA points to get barely more than 1/3 the benefit given to warriors or crusaders... I'm glad you prefer to stick with your double attack line - we don't even have that option anymore.[/p][p]Your tsunami clone ability just got changed to have the same reuse timer as our tsunami class abiltiy. Yours has no riposte component, but is otherwise identical. I'd love to have a limited stoneskin effect similar to ToS or crusader DA in the brawler tree...[/p][p]If you want to make comparisons, you should indeed make them in the proper context rather than 'mindlessly.' I am in no way calling for warrior/crusader lines to be nerfed, but I am very frustrated that the monk lines received much lower increases relatively.[/p]
[p]I empathize with your frustration, I just don't want the Monks who visit these forums going off on a war path because an AA line that barely any warriors actually use is better than a Brawler one. This is what I meant by context. Comparisons are a moot point when no one is using the [I cannot control my vocabulary] lines.[/p][p]Out of the raiding scene, yes, the loss of Double Attack in the Str line is awful and should be revoked. But I've never seen any brawlers use Str in raiding as is, so I think it's silly. All fighters should have double attack, Crusaders included, but they don't, which is a mistake. I just think Double Attack should scale for each Fighter sub-class, since the only time you're ever gonna see Warriors out parsing Brawlers if when they DO have the Sta line. 30-50% Double attack for brawlers would be more reasonable in my eyes, giving you enough to out-parse Warriors in the same group set-ups, but not so much to trivialize scouts.[/p][p]The reason I don't think you'll see Brawlers reach a high level of frontal % procs on multiple mobs is because you guys attack so fast already that any kind of % beyond 20-25 would be very powerful. Further buffing of combat skills, haste, and DPS aside, monks strike fast enough that they would be bound to generate a ton of hate on everything in front of them, possibly reaching an aggro lock.[/p][p]In my eyes, trivializing aggro is a LOT more dangerous than trivializing survivability. [/p]
Tyrion wrote: Now I doubt anyone here compares the AA's with a nerf or war path in mind. The comparisons come from the fact that warriors have gained far more attention than brawlers. In fact, brawlers have been almost totally ignored ever since KoS came out. The EoF tree has only two good abilities for raiders. And once I got those, the rest of my 25 AA points I didn't bother to rush for. On the other hand, I got to 100 with my zerk in no time and felt that I needed more AA's to get all the good ones. Another thing that shows up this neglection is the fabled EoF set, the effects are clearly meant for soloing. And yes, only a warrior with sta line will out-DPS a brawler. But the fact is that under no circumstanses should a warrior be able to out-DPS a DPS specced brawler. Yet it happens constantly. Now there is more to this too. You see rogues are equal (and even better) tanks than brawlers. They have far superior DPS to grab and hold aggro and they have better mitigation. In addition they have big debuffs. Thus rogues are the line where brawlers should be compared, not warriors. When brawlers tanking is not increased, our DPS should exceed that of rogues just because brawlers dont debuff. So the 96% double attack would have been a good start. Shame that the devs still refuse to give brawlers any kind of improvement just because they dont play one. Anyway, my zerker will propably be my new main because that one is just so much better in every way, more DPS, better tanking capability, much more interesting AA's plus superior and more frequently available items.
[p]They think brawlers are OKAY, since they don't see much of them in raids too along with they never play one [/p][p]BTW, why aggro gaining is more dangerous? We are tanks too sorry... I don't think there should be a difference in amount of aggro gaining per time. [/p]
[p]Apart from Berserkers, I really don't think there's a huge descrepency in the amount of hate generated. Yes, on a multi-mob encounter, Guardians will generate more pure hate, but in a single target encounter, a Brawler is going to out-do a Guardian everytime...or at least they should.[/p][p]The reason I hold a lot of concern over the possibility of aggro locks and trivializing aggro is that that survivability is already easy enough as is. Apart from Avatars, all instanced mobs after debuffs are practically jokes. It's never dealing with the mob itself so much as dealing with adds, standing in particular places, jousting AoEs, ect.,ect.. Mem-wipes are still the most fun and challenging aspect of an encounter because if not handled right, raid mob X runs off, AoEs your raid, and you're done for (Treyloth comes to mind for many I'm sure). I think all the changes respresent the Dev's concern for this, thus why they're reducing aggro % transfers, and other reductions (Ranger's Primal Agility). With reductions in recast for Reinforcement, a Troubador's Jester's Cap, and reduced recast items and all the hoop-la, it's easy enough as is for Guardian to lock down just about everything. [/p]
So Tyrion, you are concerned about that if brawlers get the DPS they deserve, you as a guardian cant hold aggro over them anymore? Now excuse me but that is a really bs reason to keep brawlers nerfed. So I hope you will never bring it up again. As it is, in a raid situation, even if I use my monks aggro proc, put Tranquil Vision on some assasin and taunt as much as I can, I cannot pull aggro off from our guardian. From my estimation, 96% double attack would create a bit more hate than the hate proc and taunts combined. So there really is no need for you to be concerned about the hate.
[p]I could live with not being able to get 40% multi-attack on the bases that we can tank with a 2 hander and the fear aoe lock from somewhat rapid strikes (remeber, our haste is much less in def stance 22 or 62 with health drain up self-buff component), but 16% multi-attack with reduced damage is way over-compensating for those factors. I'd say 27%ish (3% per rank) would be closer to being in line.[/p][p]No one in the high end ever used the str line because there was no way to upgrade your bare fist. Once a brawler loots high dr weapons, the str line is a hinderance more than a help. If a warrior was forced to use a crappy treasured buckler/1-hander or a rogue had to use a crappy treasured 1 hander in order to get their double attacks, I bet there would not be too many sta-warriors or fencers out there. If we could have gained a sizable double attack bonus with the relatively minor restriction of having one hand empty or suffering a 2-3% avoidance penalty, I bet every brawler in game would be str-specced (kind of like how most rogues wis spec and most warriors sta spec). [/p][p]I'm not sure if I am more bitter about losing DA or riposte from the str line. I'd love to see riposte (1% per rank) or a weaker double attack mod (say 3ish% per rank)added to the weak CA damage box to make it worthwhile. Better yet, make box 3 the mitigation bonus and make box 4 3%-4% DA and 1% riposte per rank to make it directly comparable to the rogue wis or warrior sta line while accounting for our ability to dw or use a 2 hander. That would give brawlers 24%-32% DA & 8% riposte comapred to rogues having 1 hander only 64% DA & 8% riposte or warriors having 60% DA & 16% riposte (but losing 6-8% block from buckler restriction). I think that 24% DA is even too conservative and that 32% DA would be spot on.[/p][p]Once again, this is no call to nerf the other classes. It is more of a why did we get proxy-nerfed due to the relatively weak changes when our stuff was weak already? No one took the str line end game because looted weapons with high DRs and stat bonuses gave more of a benefit than the non-upgradable empty hands. Why not lift the empty hand restriction and give us a solid DA bonus without silly restrictions that prevented us from using it end game? All other classes with DA lines have the ability to get better weapons and keep progressing with DA. The 0.75% CA damage buff per rank is a very inadequate substitue. On the other hand, I think the mit buff is great (assuming it is on the order of 75+ mit per rank). I just wish it were paired with a combination of DA/riposte instead of the weak CA bonus. This revamp is an opportunity to make the str line viable for end game raiding brawlers, but if the CA bonus stays as is, the line will be a marginal improvement at best.[/p]
Basically, I agree with you that Guardian might still stick with buckler and agi line since you guys are always MT in raid. However, don't forget that berserker shares the same war tree. The change of 16% less on double attack but 16% more on frontal aoe will boost berserker zone wide dps even higher. It's really crazy. They don't have high enough dps already?
Tyrion, the argument that you have to give up a small to mediocre amount of block to out-DPS a brawler does not take into consideration that even without that extra block the Guardian (and Berserker) are still superior tanks. This is not a "if I give up my ability to out-tank a brawler I can out-DPS him" option. It is a "if I take this AA line I can out-dps a brawler and I can still out-tank him" option.
Anyone know what the MIT increase is? I mean if we are able to get like 2k mit aa or something redonkylous like that maybe we can take a hit while raiding.
