Wow, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] did they do to us?

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Taeolen, Nov 23, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-B-Rabbit Guest

    Not to flame anyone or make someone upset.. But as far as I have played and stuff I have no problem tanking, staying a live and what so ever.. the changes I have felt, have in some way actually improved my playstyle, making me kinda better.. Just what I have to say.. maybe its becuz you read 2 much :p
  2. ARCHIVED-Kage848 Guest

    Hmmmm....I would be interested to know what all of you stats look like when ur not in a grp.....Just tell me whats your Mit and Avoid....

    There are alot of choices to what AA's to go and what gear to wear, just woundering if i need to trim the dps a bit to get some more mit/avoid...

    And for the people that say "go raid'. As i have stated before these are HEROIC zones for reg people like me. Im not Fabled out and thats fine, but the raiders have there content and we have ours....So now the raiders want harder heroic content for the 2 days a week they dont raid, and they were too easy in KoS so they want heroic zones "for them" in there Uber gear......

    Just Selfish.

    Skullz Kage
    70 Zerker
    Alpha Legion
  3. ARCHIVED-Baug Guest

    I've been adjusting my play to the changes, and basically it means a lot more micro (not necessarily bad) and even more button mashing (bleh).

    I've been toggling stances on and off a lot more now. Defensive for the pull and to let others get the debuffs in; offensive to hit my debuffs and max out aggro on AE combat arts, etc. Back to defensive if I start dropping too fast, maybe even pull out the tower shield, back to buckler & offensive to pound on my power efficent arts, etc.

    I group with a warlock a lot and I can no longer keep aggro off him purely in defensive stance. I attribute this to two main factors -- he is casting faster due to the removal of the recovery timers, and my hit percentage has dropped (especially in defensive). Using the above micro techniques, he can still blast away but it is really tiring to keep that up for hours.

    I'm looking at switching up the AA's as I think this may be the easiest way to try to compensate. Perhaps the final wisdom ability is now worth it, and I'm also looking at dropping stamina and upping defense. Named mobs are really giving me a royal beatdown with my current dps setup and I feel like I've got to do something about it.
  4. ARCHIVED-HaginNetherblade Guest

    It seems to me that they really made a mistake not raising the level cap to 80 and making all this content (MM, blight, valdoon, etc) T8. Instead they're trying to fit it into T7 and making us doing by nerfing what we had already and then slowly giving it back to us (just ask the brigands about AR if you want to hear a rant about that one).

    Still, it could be worse. You could be a brawler (70 zerker + 70 monk here).

    Oh and if you're getting wasted in blight with two healers, you're doing something wrong. We went in with one healer and a dps-specced zerker (sta+str) and cleared the zone with only 1-2 deaths. I can only guess you had no crowd control. Whats that? You thought that EoF was like KoS where CC was optional?

    Sorry, the Holy Trinity has returned...
  5. ARCHIVED-Oldlore Guest

    Yea they've made enchanters REALLY useful now in EoF. I have a hard time imagining any regular group doing Castle MM without a enchanter and a mezzer makes the instances much easier.
  6. ARCHIVED-Shurinow Guest

    I think the main thing SoE needs to adjust is how hard heroics hit. If it's heroic, it now hits like a truck. Even if it's a grey heroic.
    Well, if you are tanking 1 or even 3 ^^^ heroics you might get by if your group is good... But when you try to take on an epic who comes with adds, like Gnorbl the Playful, or the epics in Emerald Halls that spawn them, all that huge dmg adds up fast. I used to hit and exceed the 80% mit cap easily, but lately I've had about 64% mit when raid buffed at level 70 and yellow con ^^^ heroics hit me for 800-1000 dmg. I think they just need to go in and change situations where you have 6-10 ^^^ grouped or summoned heroics in a fight and change them all to ^. That would pretty much even things out imo.
    Well, I think a lot of content is still unbalanced and not in line with the new combat changes. I like a challenge, but I think the challenge they've presented in some areas is over the top. I hope they get it all fixed soon and plate tanking isn't such a miserable time...
  7. ARCHIVED-Taeolen Guest

    Is your Mitigation even being factored in? Sometimes I'm wondering if there's not a bug where the mobs are ignoring your mtiigation.

    Blue con heroics should not be hitting me for 700+, I don't care what changes were made. My gear is not that bad. I have 2400 Mitigation, which, according to persona window absorbed 50% of damage (on a side ntoe I've been inspecting high level zerkers when I see them that have decent legendary and fabled gear and their absorbtion is roughly the same - 50%). I also have around 4000 Avoidance, once again states around 50% avoidance.

    So, if I am absorbing 50% damage that mean blue cons 2 levels below me would normally be hitting for 1400+ per hit? >.<

    Oh, meant to add as well that it seems a lot of the EoF mobs don't tear me up as bad as the old world mobs, either.
    Message Edited by Taeolen on 11-27-2006 10:38 AM
  8. ARCHIVED-Kage848 Guest

    Its not just zerkers either. My SK friend in full mastercrafted was tanking Oblisk lastnight and he could not take the last mob. No chance, although im not sure if he had 2 healers or 1. BUT

    Get this, and this is the part that makes me sick.

    They killed the lat mob anyways. Wanna know how? A wiz and warlock root bombed him to death while the rest of the grp, tank included, sat there and watched....

    now idk maby thats the way sony wants us to play the game now. I mean hell why even have a tank anymore, just root bomb.

    Thats BS in my book.
  9. ARCHIVED-Thor Of Halla Guest

    FINALLLYYY gdammit you change ur email addy from an extinct one to one that exsists and not check ur junk mail and u enter into a world of pain. Lol trying to get confirmation so i can post again... nothing for weeks then all of a sudden i get 15 emails with click to confirm links!! Nice!

    Anyway... I felt what dimglow was saying from day 1 of this god for saken expansion (well kinda forsaken - will explain later). And now i can finaly post about it thanks to SoE gremlins.

    Basically, Crusaders have seen an improvement in thier ability to tank, id say SK more then Palis however. Brawlers have seen a improvement in their ability to tank although this was only with the armour upgrade patch. .Berserkers infact, have seen a increase in our dps output thanks to reduction in reuse timers, ability to inc our hp regen and inc ability to debuff mobs. Guardians have gained special abilitys like that parry ability in exchange for stifle (although i think this is broken atm) and generally get a defensive boost! After all this i still believe that Warriors are more vaible a tank class then any other tank class, although our viability has has been reduced, and guardians have thus been elevated.

    So what position does this put us zerkers in? Well it means the narrow gap between guardians ability to tank and a zerkers has now widened, and signficantly in this zerkers oppinion. According to this link Guardians get ability to reduce hate generated by a group member, boost to shielding allies from all types of damage, Increase in debuff power, very much similar to ours and increase the armour on the armour buffs. With end of line abilities that protect allies from AOEs and also another shield abosorbtion damage + the reduction of thier uber spells of the reuse timer. Zerkers on the onther had get hp regen, inc in skill debufs, reduction of reuse timers on our armour buffs, reduction in Rambo (openwounds + dest.) and end functions that grant instant zerk, a reactive aoe hit (on 1 mins timer afiak), 100 hp regen when hp <30% and inc in aoe range.

    What do these mean?
    Guardians can armor himself/herself for more with the the inc armour % in 30 second buffs.
    Guardians can reduce hate generated by an increased amount on a single group member (excellent for prewarding - now almost vital)
    Guardians can also shield allies more effectively with sentinal line
    Guardians also get increased ability to debuff as well as an inc in damage on some of the power effecient CAs (equivlanent to our stampede an breach).
    Guardians Can take more direct punishment, i.e. abosrb more it
    Guardians can alternatively shield allies from AoE!!

    Zerkers while they can reduce the reuse timers of temp armour buffs (SoE are tryin to make it so that we can armour ourselfs more but less heavely then guardians), i would argue that the reduction (25secs) in reuse timer is not enough to account for the 30%! inc in armour they get.
    Zerkers do not have an ability to absorb damage (part from agi KoS line.. guardians have this option too then) and not take damage, We do not have the ability protect the group for AoEs, nor inc thier proctection against certain things.
    Zerkers also dont have the ability to reduce hate on a certain group member, instead we must rely on dps, which aint all that reliable. (note the cap increase to dps, seems like a nerf, we must work harder to get the same levels of dps)
    Zerkers get almost the same amounts of debuffs that guardians do.

    There are other non aa sepcific issues in general... for example the importance of c/s/p skills has greatly been increased.. Guardians have a buff (25 c/s/p afiak) that can effectively counter thier defence stance nerf... Only way a zerker can do this is invest in the penalties abolishment skill availble in KoS AA lines. And criticaly loose out on other AA abilities, double attack, armour etc etc.

    Basically, Control in raiding is the number one priority, if you can control an attack on end of game mob then u can kill him/her/it with relative ease. Guardians, can control the damage their group takes and hate, which means that his/her healers last longer, and prewarding is viable etc... Zerkers cannot. As a result of a serious lack in absolute parry/damage absorbtion, our healthbars go up and down chaotically. This happens with guardians too... but without the skills that they have its bound to happen more with us. I would say that coz of these new abilities guardians have become a far more stable choice as an MT then Zerkers have with their KoS upgrades.

    Admittedly guardians may feel their AA lines are crap for whatever reason, but i doubt many can argue that they are worse off then us.

    Furthermore, the new adorment system i think will do ALOT to help (with reference with the see later i said at start), but dont forget every adorment a zerker can use a guardian can use tooo.... So basically a guardian and zerker sharing same masters and same equip with same adorments, the guardian will have the upperhand imo, slight though it is... it is still and upperhand, and a bigger one by w/e degree then KoS.

    I would beg SoE to give us more zerker themed defensive traits... they can fit a zerkers chaotic nature in there easlly. EG what should be the TRUE JUGGERNAUT inline with its defenition ffs!! Is we go absoluelty battle mad that we are immune to all types of damage for x amount of time. (juggernaut is supposed to be unstoppable runaway... juggernaut as it is now is a unstopable runway path to an early grave - v. hard using it while tankin thanks to EoF now). Understand, that im not askin juggernaut to be changed... what i am askin for is more unique abilities that ADD to our damage aborbtion our somehow to our % survivability that blackguard talks about. With our current AA im sure no1 could argue that our % survivability is same as guardians.

    I am currently specking FULL hp regen... Single regen with max points is 95, group regen with 2 pts is 90. Im not entirely sure how regen dynamics work... but at the end of the day im pritty confident it wont make a difference against epics! <-- NOT good enough imo!! But apart from the Cyclone line.. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] else is their? Debuffs may help but not enough! imo!

    I kno all classes have been hit, and Crusaders/Brawlers might have a bigger cause for moaning, but im a zerker have been for 2 years! And i wanna stay another zerker.

    In light of all this... i am thinking seriously about somethign i thought i never would,,, that is betraying to a Guardian. Iam simply running out of reasons not to betray, my guild doesnt want plate dps, they want stable tanks, guardians are the best at that atm. I dont want to betray lol, which is why i am here writing, hoping that other zerkkers see my woes (which they clearly do), havnt been able to post too much recently coz of my account business and final year of uni ect.

    Neway, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] did they do to us????

    lol this may one big /rant /moan, but hopefully i have justified doing it :)

    Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on 11-27-2006 09:48 AM
  10. ARCHIVED-Taeolen Guest

    Good points, Thor.
    I have been thinking about betraying into a Guardian now myself, but I've been reading that they're having issues too (least that's what they say). Still, they seem to be in way better shape than we are, so I'm going to give SOE a bit to at least address the concerns before betraying to a Guardian.
    Until then my Zerker is on hold for alts (Conjuror and a Ranger). Just not fun to be functionally perfectlly well one day and the next your life drops faster than a hooker in a port town while fighting blue cons.
  11. ARCHIVED-Illustrious Guest

    Its not just zerkers either. My SK friend in full mastercrafted was tanking Oblisk lastnight and he could not take the last mob. No chance, although im not sure if he had 2 healers or 1. BUT

    Get this, and this is the part that makes me sick.

    They killed the lat mob anyways. Wanna know how? A wiz and warlock root bombed him to death while the rest of the grp, tank included, sat there and watched....

    now idk maby thats the way sony wants us to play the game now. I mean hell why even have a tank anymore, just root bomb.

    Thats BS in my book.

    sounds like NO healer to me seen as i will repeat again i have killed all that zone with a single cleric healer with only 5 in grp and i was a MONK tanking who get whacked hard by yellows still, and i can garantee that we never rooted and nuked it to death. I have since killed it on my zerker also with no problems but only done it one time on him and had 2 healers so hard to compare. Monk is full fabled but zerker is only mastercrafted as its my wifes toon and she doesnt raid.

    Either healer(s) were slacking or your m8 wasnt lev 70 (u never said level)
  12. ARCHIVED-Trynnus1 Guest

    Kage - have you finished much of the claymore line - I have finished to the end of POA and the gear is worth it IMO. I believe I went 4/4/8/8 Str 4/4/8/8 Wis to boast mit and crit chance.

    BTW sounds like the issue with taunts getting resisted so much is getting looked at right. there is a post in the Guardian forums were a dev said there is a new thingie attacked to all defensives stances call "aggression". I hope this helps us out cause I am making healers work their butts off while tanking in off stance for hate gain.
  13. ARCHIVED-Chaostik Guest

    Nice one Trynnus1 ... thanks for pointing that out I've found it (and notice the dev was the first person to respond to the post). Guess the fact there wasn't a squeek on these boards despite our concerns shows where they think zerkers figure in tanking terms now :smileysad:
  14. ARCHIVED-Nembutal Guest

    Yeah I am not happy either... I don't have 36 masters I think I have 3... but I have full AD3... I also have lots of fabled... high end fabled... and 9 adornments.

    Now I don't know what you all are talking about... I don't die too much... lol... I'm stunned or rooted while my DPS sucks and everyone else draws aggro and dies.... but hey... I'm last man standing and that counts for something right?

    At first I was trying to comensate by hitting Insolent gibe more... but just like any other time this often gets alot more aggro from alot more than just the mobs you can see when in these narrow halled dungeons... so yeah it helps me hold aggro... on the times it doesn't cause a wipe.

    This is with WIS line with stance mastery... and STA line... nearly 5k MIT self buffed.

    As I have said in many other posts... grouping with a warden or a dirge to get +slashing doesn't work... I 2 box a fury... wardens don't like grouping with furies because of loot issues when leather armor with WIS drops.... and frankly they don't stack all that well anyway. Dirges are rare.... PLUS... why the hell should I have to be so selective on my group members? 4 archetypes... 1 from each archetype is supposed to be the core for any group... doesn't matter which one from that archetype... any one sis suposed to do it... if they can't do it that means SOE failed...
    Message Edited by Nembutal on 11-28-2006 02:43 PM
  15. ARCHIVED-RaunII Guest

    well, i tanked some instances last night...we did fine, 1monk,1bruiser,1brig,1pally,2 templars. in instances with lvl 60 heroics i just went into offensive stance with a two hander in and never lost aggro to anyone...then we got into zones with lvl 72 mobs, and then i had to go sword and board and defensive. even with amends on the brigand and me spamming taunts and stuns and other CA's it was a aggro nightmare.

    I know I need to "relearn to play my class" and "Get master taunts" and "get better gear"...but i dont have money nor a guild that can get fabled gear and masters for means that I am stuck between a rock and a hard spot.

    I feel the way everyone does...I mean, in defensive stance blues were wacking me for over 1200 points...since EoF my mitigation dropped to 3500...hell, the bruiser in the group had 3100...i mean, i know i have mostly master crafted gear and he was full legendary, but come on...legendary leather with almost as much mitigation as a huge legendary tower shield and master crafted plate armour? it makes me sick what SoE has done to the game.

    at least I am parsing over 1k on mobs, so if I am lucky i will still have SOME use in a group and on raids.
  16. ARCHIVED-Thor Of Halla Guest

    Dont think you have to relearn your class... jus have to adapt to the new system, which hopefully will go through a major review. A coercer/assasin or swashie + Dirge will sort your agro out, either one should stop u loosing agro full stop. hate transfer from assasins and swashies is less relaible then that of hate gain from dirge or coercer.
    All mobs hit harder now... im particularlly not happy bout the gray mob issue... grant level 59 mobs should do some damage... but i was horrified to see level 50 or 45 mobs doing any more then 1 damage to me!!! [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] did i spend all that time leveling (back in pre lu16 days) where leveling was ALOT slower and there was no double xp bonus to get to 70 and have to get damaged by those mobs... lol its the principle of that matter!!! :D i dont feel like a god anymore amongst the grays!
    But on a more serious note, i am resolute in my thoughts that zerkers, if to become viable tanks, MUST gain abilities that equate to guardians aoe protection of group and their ability to abosrb damage pre EoF and w/ the EoF aa lines...
    Futhermore, i believe, although other classes (ill use SK for this seeing that my bro is a lvl 70 one) are capable of now tanking... that does not mean that they are OPTIMAL... The guardian is remains the optimal tank! Why does SoE not introduce mobs that have their autoattack shifted from c/s/p to disease???? Making SK the optimal tank? It encourages guilds to have a healthy roster? same way that defilers and mystics are essential in alot of the end of game stuff? Sigh... guess it is true that it is easier to have one MT in a raiding guild... as they can then speed tank zones and make less mistakes etc etc
    Basically, and i mean basically, this is how SoE seem to have developed the game.
    DoF and Pre DoF... Guardians seen as main Raid Tank only (zerkers more able in DoF).
    KoS Days.... Zerkers + Guardians are equally able to tank anything in game (Guardians have + Orange con end game epics, zerkers have + on group mobs - although ultimately, its the end game orange cons that make the game playable in raiding guild guardians have a slight lead)
    EoF Days.... Orange Cons now are more 'smoothly' inline with leveling, guardians loose their advantage. BUT gain good sounding (at least due to report bugs) AAs. Zerkers get HP regen, which im pritty sure is fecking ****. = Guardians are now Tank Kings.
    EoF i thought was supposed to grant all tanks equal tanking ability, or at least give tanking advantages to certain classes on certain mobs... so its guardian that is the default tank. But other tanks can fill in effciently in certain encounters.
    And again... i seem to repeating myself. Hope SoE are listening to our woes!
    Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on 11-28-2006 01:07 PM
  17. ARCHIVED-Nembutal Guest

    Yeah... because losing aggro to aggro debuffed mid-range DPS scouts or fellow tanks is a Beserker's role....

    Apparently most of us were confused... it says in the manual somewhere... not sure where... I believe the page read like this :

    Fighter archetype : "Your main role is to stand there and watch as your companions die. Often while using such cool abilities as Easily stunned : Adept 3 or Where did my Mitigation Go : Master 1"

    Mage Archetype : "Your role is to do damage and die because your useless tank can't hold aggro"

    Scout Archetype : "Your role is to do damage and die because your useless tank can't hold aggro"

    Priest Archetype : "Your role is to gather another healer to tag team heal your useless tank... you may get aggro and die because your tank can't hold aggro... but this is part of your role"

    I have more mitigation than most people... and I typically use 2 healers now on light yellow mobs... partially due to my low mit... and quite frequently because they are healing people even more squishy than me while I run in circles mashing buttons or stand there frozen in place. When this game was deveoped they said "4 archeypes... 1 person from each archetype to form a solid group... then you can add up to 2 more of anything to round out the team to kill stuff faster and safer"

    last I checked 2 priests means that scheme for balance was broken... you can't add 2 of anything... it should be 2 priests...

    Also since your tank can't hold aggro.. and the mitigation softcap is 4k you should probably dump all the casters and only run with scouts so they can tank with thier 4k mit when needed.

    SOE you broke the system... start admitting it and developing a plan.... quit telling us lies and expecting us to bite them... we did that for the stupid froglock lie... you will not catch most of us a 2nd time... the combat is not rolling as planned and it does need fixed. It needs fixed because you made changes a week before the expansion and combat revamp left beta... just like you did to DoF and initial release... always running with 1 mechanic and then swapping to another too late to test it... well here is an idea... LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES! But rather than learn from it you attempt to pretend there is nothing wrong... and it really ticks us off... just fess up.. fix it... and come up with a new set of dev rules so that it doesn't happen again...
  18. ARCHIVED-Nembutal Guest

    Yup... all classes are able to tank to some degree due to the MIT curve... this includes wizards and warlocks etc... which I am not sure how many of you have noticed seem to live alot longer when they pull aggro... which happens alot with the nerf to our ability to hold aggro so I would think most of you would have noticed.

    The other tank classes can tank.. yes... and you are correct it is not optimal.. but the same can be said for an illusionist. They are able to pull aggro a little bit.. and they live through more than 1 hit. These qualifications do not make them a tank IMHO... to make them a tank they have to be able to reliably HOLD AGGRO... and to have the group desire that they do that over another archetype. That only holds true a little bit... people want a tank in thier group... and it helps... but I have seen people do content better with a good set of nukers and a root/snare caster than they can do with me a plate tank in mostly fabled... with 2 healers on me. A group should be devestated without a fighter and healer archetype... not more efficient.

    I am all for letting brawlers and crusaders tank also... I feel SOE has pooped on them for far too long... but right now I am concerened about my class... and focused on things that would help me do my job the way it was intended. If those happen to line up... like reducing the resist rate and values on taunts across the board... great... if not I will let them fight thier own battle.
  19. ARCHIVED-Kage848 Guest

    Hey RaunII - you do know that Brawlers Def stance give like 18% or 20% mit where ours is only 15%?

    Illustrious - Dont compare your fabled out monk to my Leg Zerker, thats not fair....and you said you did it with your Zerker with 2 healers. Same as me. Im saying you should not NEED 2 healers....I mean am i ever ganna have a chance in MM without fabled gear? If i can barly do Oblisk then from what i been hearing i will have no chance in MM. Guess we will have to see.

    Trynnus1 - So as a Zerker without sta line you can tank and keep agro off the Wiz/Loks without outside agro help? I use Sta line 4488 str line and i still sometimes loose agro to dps classes, although not alot of the time. Are you in leg or fabled? and yes im up to the Grp X2 part in claymore. You are so right any tank in the game needs to do that line, its godly.

    All in all i gatta still wait and see. My only real concern is i DO NOT want them to make the heroic zones so hard that only fabled out people can do them. As it is common gear is no longer an option. Its like Master crafted is the least you can get away with, and one time i had some jerk tell me that "Ah man im not used to healing a tank in Xegonite".
  20. ARCHIVED-Tarannon Thorirson Guest

    with the current item sets for guards and berserkers its gonna get worse tankwise before it gets anything better thats for sure, the berserker sets absolutely suck tankwise and hardly adds anything at all to our tankability, its the compelte oposite for the guard sets thou, they are awesome and adds a noticeable amount of tankability to any gurad that has a set.

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