Wizard Discussion

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Pariel, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. Fendaria Member

    I agree with everything you've stated Daray and your suggestions, and at this point I have to believe the dev working on prestige abilities has read them as well.

    I'm still hopeful they aren't done tweaking things yet and some balance can be achieved.

  2. Le Clown Active Member

    Aside from the inability to cast hellfire through assisting (which is being fixed, thanks Xelgad). Another annoyance is incineration stacks not being more easily viewable; especially in raid scenarios.

    Would it be possible for the incineration icon to have a subscript in spellbook/hotbar which reports the stack number on selected/assisted target?

    I assume this annoyance runs across the board for mages. Although the hellfire/planarburst/darkaggrev spell is an indicator that you do in fact have a stack it does not mean the spell is worth rotation yet; especially annoying for wizards who anticipate a 3s MB to find out otherwise.
  3. Mysterre New Member

    This. Exactly this. The actual in-game playability and usefulness of Hellfire is very poor when any fight with more than one mob is involved. The duration of Incineration should be doubled, at the very least, to allow us to switch back and forth between adds and named without having to start over so often. Easy fix.

    Also, the ability to keep track of our increments is very poor. I cannot track how many increments I have except by scanning the Maintained window, because my spell timer mod does not pick up the increments. The same problem exists for both Incineration and Frozen Solid triggers. Having to do this slows me down and is an impediment to maximizing DPS. Adding this requirement on top of all the other stuff a wizard already has to balance during an encounter is just stupid.

    Or at least a less-delayed impact: Frozen Solid should be maxed out at 120 increments. Easy fix.

    I have no doubt some real thought was given to these two endlines. The problem is that they feel to us the end users as exactly that - two afterthoughts which could have been replaced by something far better to help make us competitive with the rangers, assassins and BL's who are currently laughing their way to the top of the parses. There were some really good suggestions in the Beta section which were never implemented, like removing the directional cone requirements of Fusion and Blast or making them targeted AE's. We fought the giant gorilla in the water and Fusion and Blast there are totally useless, one of several examples of poor spell design and/or game mechanics when it comes to these two spells.

    The bottom line is that the new prestiges either are not working as intended, and/or they are just plain subpar compared to other classes' prestige abilities. A good indication of something having gone wrong is how long the QQ whine threads are on the forums. By that measure you should easily be able to tell that you guys have not exactly delivered a wizard line for this expansion which is competitive with other classes. There are some readily doable fixes. Please listen to the wizard player base all saying that some revision of the prestige abilities is in order.
  4. wazul Active Member

    poor english inside (french)

    prestige wiz is very frustating for us.

    trash situation :

    First we need to choose beetween a solo or ae path. Solo path : if we read parse, wiz useless for all trash. (both old/new zone). necro, summoners, rangers, bestlord, all other class dps win.

    if ae path, correct for trash with e-ci but nothing news for us.

    named situation : on paper, or with a training epic dummy, solo is better. but not really far better. on real situation, completly bad. to long for build increment... many event in raid (resect after a dead, swtich with a add) completly destroy the build. Spam poor fire spell for build increment is inoperent if a event force us to reset the build. and fight boss = events.

    if we choose ae for named, more constent dps but with always same fusion and spell force us to play like a scout.
    last spell in ae path : i make same dmg with e-ci ! desagro ? we have already a line in aa tree + ornement no need another desagro slot.

    coe is an upgrade for many dps, but not for wiz.
  5. Dinwiz Active Member


    please let incineration either

    trigger of any spell or let fire shaped spells to proc it without messing up frigit gift
    double its duration
    let it proc 100% and not 75%

    its really hard/impossible to maintain 5 inc's to be able to use hell fire when have to deal with adds / name script
  6. Mentin Member

    So I specced all left side to see what it could do. I immediately noted he problems mentioned earlier in this thread with maintaining enough counters to get good Hellfires etc, and casting to build up those counters also seems to force us to use low-yield spells initially which reduces dps overall. For all but the biggest raidbosses teh mob is almost dead when 5 counters are ready.

    I also experience that my wiz has slipped from 3-4th on parse to 6-7th.

    Pre CoV on single target with no jousts(optimal setting) I could push some 300k. Now I can do some 430k
    The summoners were able to push some 400k in same setting, with considerably less effort than me(less spells to cast etc). Now they score 600k.
    The assassin was at 500-600k.. now he crosses 1M.

    Of these classes Wizards do have the lowest utility. No raidwide buff, no worthwhile aggro transfer etc. All we got is dps. And we don't have that. With wizard/warlock being the pure dps caster class I do expect us to be able to compete with the assassins/rangers.. and we are so far from it.

    I was hoping CoE would improve our relative standing somewhat, but in reality it has become worse. Oh well.

    I think someone at SoE need to look beyond their spreadsheets and see how a wizard works in actual play. If their spreadsheets show a wizard competnig with assassins for dps.. their spreadsheet models really are wrong.
  7. wazul Active Member

    big patch message, but nothing for us.
    seems we talk for nothing, seems wizard spreadsheet is out of date.
  8. Sebekian New Member

    Mentin, I think you hit the nail right on the head. This has also been my experience since the start of DOV. I was hoping COE would rebalance the mages as summoners have gotten a ridiculously massive boost to their overall dps (largely because of the pet sharing stats and the extremely high amount of HP that you can achieve in game now and all of their "life" based spells), while the wizards and warlocks haven't really gotten anything significant.

    EQ2 has always had a good distinction of "Tier" based DPS, which is based on the equation that "More utility = less DPS, and vice versa". Right now, the summoners have more utility: Conj: Shards/COH/Elemental Toxicity, Necro: Hearts/Res/Elemental Toxicity, more survivability, AND more DPS than most Sorcs in the game.

    Yes, the best wizards worldwide may be able to compete with them, but you shouldn't have to have very endgame gear to keep up with or outparse a summoner with similar gear, because they have a lot more usefulness in raid because of their utility. Their dps should be on par with Rogues (Brigand/Swashbuckler), NOT on par with Assassin/Ranger/Wizard/Warlock, because all 4 of these T1 dps classes have ZERO utility, nothing useful to bring to the table besides DPS.

    The summoners were complaining about being useless before DOV, but by "fixing" that problem, you've created the same problem and directed it at Sorcs. We have no utility and now do less DPS as well, so what good are we in raids?

    People have invested countless hours learning their class, studying it to become better so they can excel, and I'm one of those people. We also choose our class when we create a character based on the role we expect to play. Most people who choose a Sorc expect to be T1 dps and be right up there with the Assassin/Ranger in raids. Having to struggle against a class that already has far more utility and more often than not, getting outparsed by them at the same time is a massive slap in the face and goes against the whole reason for making a T1 dps class.

    SOE, please stop ruining the game for wizards and warlocks by making the summoners do more DPS than us AND have more utility than us. A summoner should have to STRUGGLE to even keep up with a Sorc, not be beating them by 100-200K on average in parses without even having to use that many spells to achieve that end.

    I was really frustrated in DOV with this situation, and as I got closer to the end of the expansion, I was "SORT OF" gaining ground on our guild summoner(s), I had such high hopes that COE would put us back at the top where we're supposed to be (once again, because that's ALL we can do, ZERO utility), but instead it's made the Summoners even more OP and further ahead of us.

    This is one of the big reasons that you guys lose players, you pick your favorite classes and you take and boost them to obscene levels while leaving the rest of us in the dark to put up with it.

    My suggestion to remedy the problem, either add something to the prestige line to give the Sorcs a massive boost in potency (much more than we have now) to increase our overall DPS significantly upwards of 20-30% to keep up with the T1 scouts and still outparse the summoners (as we're supposed to be able to do because they're part utility), OR cut down the amount of damage that lifeburn/soulburn and those type of spells achieve so that summoners are not so OP, and more in line with brigands/swashbucklers like they should be. There are a lot of ways this could be achieved but the basic premise is either raise the Sorc dps output significantly or cut the Summoner dps output significantly.

    I am not giving up hope that you guys will maybe listen to us and start fixing things where they're broken and making a class basically obsolete, but maybe I'm just talking to a wall and hoping for nothing but I wanted to at least put my thoughts out there in hopes that maybe the devs actually do care about their paying subscribers.


    Bard/Enchanter/Healer T2.5 - T3
    Fighter/Rogue/Summoner T2 - T2.5
    Reckless Fighter T1.5 - T2
    Predator/Beastlord/Sorceror T1 - T2

    I have a feeling a lot of the devs also test based on the highest end guilds worldwide, and this isn't necessarily a good thing to do because 99% of the worldwide population of people who raid are NOT in those guilds and don't have access to that level of gear, this should be compensated for in all cases.

    Thanks for listening,
  9. Loldawg Member

    i dunno, i've seen sorcs parse well and beat summoners. with the right buffs, they can stay on top. summoners parse well but they're by no means first unless the stars align. and their utility is limited.
  10. bara New Member

    sorcerer can parse well, the really bad thing with the new pretiges is the lack of versatility that make us switch AA way to much to keep up with other dps in every zones.

    incineration and hellfire are cool, just improve the duration to 25s to make the stacking issues less annoying, the aoe line seem fine to me.
  11. Estred Well-Known Member

    I am not a wizard nor have I played one so I will be brief. As per stated by Sebakian. The basic formula was indeed +Utility/Survivability = less dps. Preds, BL's and Sorc's are the intended T1 by class definition. The issue is now things are cropping up due to new spell mechanics such as increased spell double cast has been helping the big hitters but hurting the dot-ers. Of the 4 Mages if I were to say their rolls from my perspective as a fighter.

    Wizard/Warlock > Conj/Necro of course and between each class yes given current mechanics the breakdown of the Mages would be: Wiz->Conjy->Warlock->Necro. On fights where movement or interrupts is greater the Warlock and Necro would 1up the Wiz/Conj.
  12. Loldawg Member

    i think necros > conjy, especially w/ UT. not as sure who wins between wiz / warlock, but in our guild its typically wiz > lock.
  13. Estred Well-Known Member

    I am speculating, I don't profess to know the classes I am only going off what the class reads at character creation. I filed them in that order because Sorcerer>Summoner for both good and evil. Yes I have heard with UT the ticking classes have better dps from it but that's buff mechanics and I think we are talking class mechanics here from a base perspective.
  14. ng23985 New Member

    I am so disappointed that none of these issues were fixed in Beta. I know enough of us complained about them.

    My experiences are similar to Mentin's. Single Target before CoE: Necro 650k, both Conjurors 500k, Assassin/Ranger 450-550k, me 300k. Now: Necro 900k, Conjurors 700k, Ranger 500k (fluke?), me 400k. (Assassin is away right now.)

    The DPS tiers were, and should continue to be:

    T1: Wizard, Warlock, Assassin, Ranger
    T2: Swashbuckler, Brigand, Necromancer, Conjuror
    T3: Illusionist, Coercer, Dirge, Troubador

    And it is my opinion that Beastlords in Feral belong in Tier 2, and Beastlords in Spiritual belong in Tier 3.

    Current DPS tiers in my experience are:

    T1: Beastlord, Necromancer
    T2: Conjuror, Assassin, Ranger
    T3: Wizard, Warlock

    This is completely upside-down. Why did both Summoners get INCREDIBLY powerful Prestige abilities that do not significantly change their playstyle(passive damage procs), where the Sorcerer classes both got earthshattering gameplay changing abilities that give pathetic results? (I consider earthshattering gameplay changes to be how the Wiz left-side line forces us to prioritize our weakest spells; and the right-side giving us a new mechanic to babysit and monitor)

    Correct DPS for single target should be something like this: Wizard 1000k, Assassin/Ranger 950k (less because of higher survivability), Warlock 900-950k, Summoners/Feral Beastlord/Rogues: 550-600k.

    It is my opinion that the Wizard class is currently broken, and is no longer a legitimate option for filling a DPS role. We need nothing short of a complete overhaul of the DPS classes to reign in these imbalances. Tier 1 classes should be competitive only with each other, and they should all be firmly ahead of Tier 2 classes, in all combat situations, without question.

    It would be possible to go through the entire spellbook for both Sorcerer classes, double the damage on every single spell, and we still wouldn't be powerful enough.

    I am prepared to stop playing my Wizard until these problems get fixed - both the sub-par CoE Prestige abilities, and more longstanding class weaknesses. It is intolerable that Tier 1 folks (Wizard + Warlock) are doing less damage than Tier 2 folks (Conjuror + Necromancer). My guild doesn't want my Wizard anymore. They want me to reroll as a bard or enchanter. I refuse. I will cancel my subscription instead. Under no circumstances should a Summoner of similar gear even come close to my level of damage. There is nothing that infuriates me more than this horrible design flaw right now.
  15. Neon New Member

    Ok, since the Warlocks Dark Aggravation has been change, they have to change the way Fiery Blast works. If the target happens to die when casted, it should still go off on another target. And I am sure there is other issues that people have with it as well.

    Also the right side of the prestige, why do the stacks have a time limit? Why make us like Beastlords and needs to gain or loose savagery (increments) and have to pull within a certain time limit. PLEASE PLEASE remove the increment timers on classes, they don't help. They just make people rage at the tanks to pull faster, which is never good.

    And why do we have to have full stacks to do full damage on the right side Prestiges. Why not make it like other classes were it applies damage based on the current increment count, and maybe with a bonus at max increments?
  16. Mystere Member

    DPS should be inversely related to utility. IMO this should be the natural order of things:
    T1: wizard, warlock, ranger
    T1.5: assassin, necromancer, conjuror (these classes should lose more parses than they win to T1 classes)
    T2: swashbuckler, brigand, feral BL (these classes should lose most/almost all parses to T1 classes)
    T3: illusionist, coercer, dirge, troubador, spiritual BL (these classes should never win parses against T1 classes)

    As we all know, this order is seriously jacked up. I almost feel SOE likes to prop up "flavors of the month", or maybe "flavors of the expac" thinking that people will play a new class and not be bored, or something. What I have witnessed is that doing this in fact makes people quit the game, not stay and reroll. Or maybe they have a hard time balancing DPS classes, which would surprise me after 8 years of this game.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say that the wizard class is broken, but it definitely needs some tweaking.
  17. Daray Well-Known Member

    Since a lot of you are picking on summoners (but for largely the wrong reasons), let me clear a couple of things up. The potential balance issue with summoners (and indeed all pet classes) is none of the above, but instead the pets' ability to also proc group damage procs. Given the increase in the amount of group damage procs typically available, these will heavily favor pet classes.
  18. Silienia New Member

    Fiery blast is the combined damage within a 10 second period works best when facing groups of mobs IE: fusion + ecis + fusion (if available) + BoD + firestorm = maximum damage with feiry blast

    aslo to add my 2 cents: i dont really notice the supposed nerf, but before the expac i didnt parse more than 400k on any ossacion however i got close, after expac ive parsed nearly a million (968k) even tho it was on adds it happened, i havent parsed less than 300k since i got COE but im assuming thats minimum now :(
  19. Hachi Member

    > Fiery blast is the combined damage within a 10 second period

    Yes, I've got it. All I needed was to practice on mobs that didn't die easily (which was damn near everything that didn't also one shot me).
  20. Dinwiz Active Member

    so what happened in this xpac

    all 4 mages are expert at single target

    wizard got the worse single target line , incineration works in the worst way of the 4 mages , no one using it even if we do it causes us do less dps since incineration works so bad

    while other mages gain a good single target line that works smooth
    summoners can enjoy more group procs to double procs
    locks can still do ae when needed , not as good as with ED but still (+much nicer utility)

    what we get if we choose single target line ?
    mystical heat - not really helping with all these drains
    firechains - should give us self utility or even shorten base reuse/cast speed of ball of fire
    hell fire - hard to be able to use it often with the the way incineration works

    id be happy to switch out eici since adds die quick were starting to have same problems locks were facing
    but left side game play is harder annoying and not worth it atm

    please look into incineration and make it easier to maintain and less annoying to play with