With recent weapon changes, which does more damage? buckler or dw?

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Bilbo30, Oct 23, 2007.

  1. ARCHIVED-Kaberu Guest

    You can tell when Skel gets something right, he posts as often as a giggly teenage girl comments on MySpace!

    I have no doubt there is an imbalance between offense and defense. For example, I have an easier time fighting many of the heroics in Shard of Fear in offense for the mere fact that all my stuns and debuffs land.

    Also keep in mind that with the amount of buffing and healing in a raid, you could sub in many of the non-tank classes as the main tank with most of the content out there (if aggro control was not the main issue). Frankly, I don't think any point is proven regardless of your spec or your stance when in a raid. As an example: no matter what setup you use, you are going to be over-healed. The only real exception would be if you managed to get your mitigation low enough where you could be one- or even two-shotted.

    If I wanted, I could spec myself with STR 8-1, AGI 8-2, STA 8-2, WIS 8-2, INT 8-2 and still successfully main tank for a raid. Heck, any one of you could NOT spend AAs and I bet you could still MT your raids with little to no problem. Is it really a big accomplishment to tank half naked while hopping on one leg with both hands tied behind your back (that's our new entertainment spell by the way) while in offensive stance when you have a squadron of healers swooping in with teh phat uberz healzorz? I also can't figure out why nobody noticed that people continue citing "raid this" and "raid that" when one of the original criticisms was that people keep talking from a raid-only perspective. Maybe it just sort of proves the point?

    One thing I am certain of, cockroaches would be terrified of these boards!

    The main focus is that everyone is going to be grouping and/or soloing again when the new expansion hits. Those are areas where the differences between, say, a tower shield and a buckler, are very much apparent compared to the raid enviornment. The big question is do we need to have split specializations like in the pre-AA days (sword & board for tanking, duals/2h for DPS) or can we stay the middle ground as our Stamina line currently permits? Sure, we can pick whatever we want by choice, but if we want to successfully fill a role (such as tanking), do we need to ensure a certain level of capabilities that might go unfulfilled by a generalized spread like the Stamina spec?
  2. ARCHIVED-Schmalex23 Guest

    Kaberu wrote:
    This is the only area of the game that needs any sort of skill, thats why its raid this raid that. Just about any overland content can be duo'd and any instance can be easily 4 maned even in mastercrafted.
  3. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    Owned? I think not, I think every AoM screenshot (they only have one) I have seen on the AM forums has Skel with the Tower shield from NTT equipped on the final 1% of the mobs HP, owned? Don't think so.
    I think Kaberu is about the only sane, non-egotistical person here to get my point at all, as for all I care, you guys can keep your Buckler spec, I'm sure you wont be sticking around after RoK and the zerker community has nothing to miss if that is the case. The problem is Skel, that yes you may tank SOME stuff in Buckler now but you act like you have been doing it 100% of the time since EoF was released, when I know for a fact you haven't been, you don't tank the heavier hitting stuff in buckler mode until you have trivialized it with higher quaility gear, ie; NTT and Avatar gear, that was my point, that you don't tank the heavy hitting stuff in buckler + Ostance mode until you have trivialized it and it is safe to do so. I would be willing to bet that for the first few raids in new content you dont raid at all with buckler until you have all obtained a safe feel for the damage output of the mobs or to see if it is even possible to use buckler on them without being 2 shotted.
    You and your boys from EQ2flames parade forums like you have something to prove telling people how to play their [I cannot control my vocabulary] and when they fail and make total noobs of themselves from trying to reproduce what you do, you simple say " Don't know what to tell you...", good advice Skel, wtg, then you have so many people questioning why so many people have a bad view of this class, if only we were all decked out in NTT / Avatar gear.
    Skel, what makes you think I dont raid? Why? Because I dont rant and rave about how good my [I cannot control my vocabulary] is or what we killed server first or WW first or post parse after parse like I have something to prove? Or is it because I have Taemek in a casual guild like SE? You didn't stop to think I might have a alt that I play in a higher more well known guild from EF that I don't care to brag about, not that I don't care about the guild, but when I say I don't care, I'll let you know they are very well known, but why should I publish it? Taemek, is the one I would be rather raiding with, but unfortunately, like you are beginning to learn the hard way, Guardians do it better and always have and has lead me into playing something more needed on raids.
    Like Kaberu said, anyone can tank anything with a raid force behind them and Zerkers simply aren't the best at holding agro anymore nor does it even require Buckler to hold it. I think it is safe to say that the whole idea of you going to betray to Guardian after RoK here is enough said. If a Guardian can hold agro of a raid doing 40k+ DPS with his mezzly 1000 - 1300 DPS, what makes you even remotely think we need to put out 2200+ DPS to hold it? We sacrafice so much to look so good with the delusion that we need to do that amount of DPS to hold agro. This will be where Skel tries to prove me wrong again and contuines to tell you is not possible or that I don't raid based of my gear on Taemek.....
    PaganSaint, the only sad thing here is that while you point my point out, you fail to see it.
  4. ARCHIVED-Schmalex23 Guest

    -Aonein- wrote:
    Are you really that dumb? I SHOWED you our first avatar kill and i was using a buckler. AKA no avatar loot, no NTT, no contested mayong, not even full set gear, using a KoS axe. Plain and simple yes i have been tanking ALL of EoF in buckler.
  5. ARCHIVED-Schmalex23 Guest

    Skel@Butcherblock wrote:
    Also because you cant seem to read i will show you the picture again. AVATAR OF MISCHIEF ----- BUCKLER REVERSAL 2%

    You could always ask the other 200 people that were in the zone that day what shield i used. So again... GG
  6. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    Skel@Butcherblock wrote:
    Still missing the entire point Skel, I could care less what you did 3 days ago as the date points out. 10/24/2007
  7. ARCHIVED-Schmalex23 Guest

    you asked for my AoM parse with a buckler... there it is fool.
  8. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    Skel@Butcherblock wrote:
    Let's remove the fact that the first AoM kill you did you were equipped with Tower and most likely in defense stance (you already stated you don't tank AoM in Ostance) according to the screenie on your website. Let's agree that most tough encounters like AoM require it until a comfortable strat is in place to be able to allow you to be more lax with your raid and to the point where the raid understands and knows what is going to happen, how much it can do, mob targeting, targeting random members of the raid and last but not least, according to you, lets push aside the fact that you had already been farming Avatars / NTT for 8 months!!! Yes, I stand corrected Skel, you tanked AoM with Buckler but no Ostance, you truely win at life. I would have to be guessing here, but to tank AoM with Buckler and Ostance you would need at least 9 healers seeing other raids using the best Guardians WW can do it with 7. Pure guess though.
    Oh by the way, where you stated that you gave me the parse of your first Avatar kill, 3/8/2007, but you been farming them for 8 months Skel.......hmmm interesting, looks like 2 months to me. No no, let me save the trouble, another screen shot mixed up in you compilation of screenies in your photo bucket account right?
    Anyways, I dont really care how Skel replies here, I'll be leaving it alone at that, but let me pull it back on track, there is no one holy way to play a Zerker, there is 24 classes in this game and you have many varible styles to play a Zerker at your hands and feet, 24 classes to chose from to compliment that style of game play. Just because Skel tells you it is his way or the highway doesn't mean it is the only way, and why should you believe him, he is going to betray to Guardian anyway, that there explains how god like Buckler is now not to mention his previous statement about how Guardians get booted some DPS and get to keep thier utility pretty much saying that he knows they already tank better (which I've not doubt he already did) but they fail to recruit one or even remotely let one in thier guild, kind of selfish? Maybe, maybe not, I'm not the leader and wont pretend to know why they don't.
    There has been more then enough efficient parsing, data and screen shots to prove it, the simple fact of the matter is this, if a EoF fabled Guardian can do 1200 - 1500 DPS and anywhere upto 2k+ depending on how he / she is spec'd / geared, MTing a raid without the STA line with a Tower while the raid is pushing close to 50k DPS (yes I know I said 40k before, but I have seen parses with guilds pushing 48k with the Guard doing the same DPS as I mention here), what makes you even remotely think we need to put ourselves in such a postion where it requires healers to be spam healing with some delusional notion that we need the extra 800+ DPS to hold agro when Guards do it fine with 800 less?
    Must be a magical Guardian taunt ability we dont get when last I checked, their Taunts are identical to ours except they get 3 (2 when you really think about it) rescues to our one. Rescues don't mean jack if your guild is doing 48k dps, any guild who can push this number knows how fast you would be burning through mobs to understand that the use of rescue is a total waste of time and better off saving it for Bosses anyway.
    My entire point is, if Guards can do it without the use of STA line, then why can't we? The truth is, we can, just people like Skel will think your a ****, cause there is no other way but his.......just look at his post history, anyone who remotely suggests a different way to "succesfully" play a Zerker he will chim in with a flame or some bigatory remark about how you dont raid, GG, what ever the hell that means. Starting to rant again, switching off, enough BS has been said in this thread and I don't see it being the last. Every single one of these topics spins up this debate, over and over again.
    I hope you do us proud on the Guardian forums Skel, good luck with it.
  9. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

    -Aonein- wrote:
    This is probably the whole point from your posts here. You obviously like your Zerker (who doesn't?), otherwise you would play another class.
    But you have been told so often "you cannot do this, you cannot do that, you are no Guardian" from people who have no clue about this game (like here: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=380929) that you started to believe it and then you came to the forum here and see people who actually can do things you are being told (and believe) you can't do, like tanking all mobs in the game with a buckler and being MT.
    But you don't want to realize that maybe you did (and do) something wrong or that these "Guardians are the one and only" guys are wrong and that if you would improve your playstyle (eg taking sta line, which is no matter what some people say the single best aa line Zerkers can get) you could do these things too.
    Instead you attack everyone who doesn't agree with you and hope with every expansion since DoF that Zerkers get nerfed so much that your reality becomes a real reality, but this simply won't happen. Just look at RoK, Zerkers will get a very nice defensive spell, Guardians not. The defensive gap between these classes is allready not that big and now it gets even smaller.
    The only question is now how the new aa points will shift class balance. If it goes in the wrong direction the devs can easily countersteer by improving the EoF AAs. Where there is nothing you can easily add something and just considering the new spell they are definitely willing to do so if necessary.
    Sorry to disappoint you Aonein.
  10. ARCHIVED-Ashrim Guest

    Kaberu wrote:
    Did SoF again last night, this time templar was the only healer, group makeup was zerker, templar, monk, warlock, illusionist, dirge. Mez does not work on epics, and that is what this thread was originally about, the procs of the epic mobs in SoF. I tanked each epic completely in Ostance. It was the dirge's second time to play a dirge, the illusionist was an alt, the monk only 60AA, it was the warlocks first week back from an 8 month navy deployment (3rd week the monk was back from a year long hiatus).

    The point is, buckler spec does not hinder the tank at all on these mobs.
  11. ARCHIVED-PaganSaint Guest

    -Aonein- wrote:
    In summary, you're an idiot. You have zero valid points, you're entire posting on this thread is an attempt to call down the most successful berserker here for that success and his attempts to spread that experiance so others can fast track.

    You're posting worthless attacks. GG
  12. ARCHIVED-Schmalex23 Guest

    -Aonein- wrote:
    God you really are an idiot arent you.



    Lets start with your horrible math

    its 10/28/07
    we killed war on 3/8/07
    thats 7 months 3 weeks, AKA 8 months


    Lets move on, since i guess swaping shields mid fight is impossible. I mean only a horrible tank would macro in a tower shield to a defensive buff for when he spikes... obviously. Second off guardians do get a magical taunt we dont have, its called reinforcement. It bumps your hate position by 1 for every hit you make on any mob for a limited duration, and its recast can be down to less then 2 minutes with the right gear.
  13. ARCHIVED-rabid.pooh Guest

    Be carefull on that fast track your talking about, what works in the highest end guild may not work on your lower - mid range raiding guilds. The question here is what kind of guild are you in? What type of encounters are you facing? Is a buckler spec'd zerker nessary when you have raid DPS 20k ish?. Is having a tower shield going to better when you don't have the agro issues that the higher end guilds are facing? For instance a higher end guild may say in LOA don't bother mezzing Gnorbl's adds, just burn right though it easy as pie, where there's no way on gods green planet that the lower end guild can even pull something like that off.
    Skel's opinions do matter, but they're not the only opinion and not nessarly the right opinion for each person, his experience is all top highend raid. Its up to the player to filter all the information from players. And Aonein lighten up man, offer your different opinion and let it go man. It's up to the people reading the threads to determine what matches them the best. I bet most will take someone like Skels opinion and then adjust to what works for them.
    *edit* Btw, I'm not forum trolling I have a zerker and was wondering the exact same thing the OP was.
  14. ARCHIVED-PaganSaint Guest

    By fast track I meant give them what he knows to work, and what doesn't work so they do not have to wonder if its their spec, their healers, their raid, or a combination of those they can go over what is known to work and what is known to not work and what they need to work on to achieve success.
  15. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

    Toesmash@Oasis wrote:
    To be able to filter informations you have to know what is right and what not and it is simply a matter of fact that Skel is usally right and gives very good information while Aonein only spams wrongs information because he simply can't commit he is wrong (see the stickied Zerker guide) and his only intention is not to spread information but to enforce his playstyle on other players. He is not chosen as MT so he doesn't want Zerkers to be able to be MT and hopes SOE will make this possible, he doesn't like buckler, so he doesn't want people to use one and wants SOE to make it invalid to use one and so on.
  16. ARCHIVED-LygerT Guest

    eh, all the upper end raiders always getheard over the lower tier raiders and casual gamers, it's just the way it goes.
    yes, there is a huge difference in most taking up advice when their gear isn't up to par and with healers new to raids. i would never suggest a new zerk in treasured gear start off or stay in offensive buckler when grouping with casual healers, in fact healers make or break raids, not so much the tank. second issue is the aggro control, obviously the best aggro management is with buckler in offensive but not all zerks should be trying this out, at best they should be working toward this point not trying to start out there by testing and pushing little by little with their stances and equipment and testing the healers ability to keep the MT alive in any situation.
    why is it that our class is the most dysfunctional of all the tank classes? maybe it is in our self destructive nature and why we have the least amount of support, even amongst ourselves.
  17. ARCHIVED-Kaberu Guest

    Syntax@Venekor wrote:
    That's some of the problem with the game right now: The buckler spec does not really affect tanking too much once fully specced. In my later post, I admitted that it was easier to tackle many of the mobs in SoF in offensive stance mostly because my stuns and debuffs land far more easily (aside from it dying a bit quicker to the increase in damage). The issue I was bringing up was whether or not it will stay that way or if the two paths will further diverge.

    Even with the current state of affairs, there is a noticeable improvement using a towershield that becomes more and more apparent the lower your gear is in tier. Using a buckler spec when you have at best, some mastercrafted gear, is basically putting your tanking abilities almost solely in the hands of the healer. With raid level gear, that difference becomes mostly negligible but it is still there.

    Now Skel is indeed right about many things, but it doesn't make what he says right in every context (the same goes for the rest of us). I think what we have going on here is that we have two points-of-view trying to explain themselves in the context of the other. On their own, they know exactly what's what, but it gets muddled when you try to explain it from the wrong side.

    I'm fairly certain I know what Aonein is trying to convey and I think if this post didn't exist, and he expressed everything in a fresh post from the get go (without all the cross references to other replies), there would be a lot less confusion and side-tracking and far more focus, as well as understanding, as to what he's really trying to say. Most of that is his fault for getting wrapped up in the replies, comments, and various other offshoots that keep changing the way he tries to explain it... but that's something all of us tend to do.
  18. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    Bremer wrote:
    No Bremer, you and Pagan take what I say completely out of context. Never have I said I dislike Buckler and never have I told people not to use it, I am merely pointing out that Buckler isn't the end all be all spec, even for max/min people. I simply dislike the fact that people like Pagan, Skel, not sure about yourself, but majority of the people who play Zerkers have this delusion that it is a requirement rather then a taste. My information has and always will be that we have a choice, and like I said, make me out to be a liar all you like, all one has to do is search these forums for relative information to find that there is no holy one way.
    24 classes equal many viable group options to compliment a style of gameplay you wish to use that can be just as succesful as the next. The reson people "think" that Buckler is the best is because its nets you the highest amount of DPS, DPS which in some cases is like healing on a raid, more then is actually needed.
    Skel, I already mentioned Reinforcement, and as I said, if your guild is pushing 50k DPS which I don't doubt for 1 second your guild is, and you don't have reinforcement, as you said, it can be bought down to close to 2 mins with AA, but how long do you think raids stand around for waiting to do doing 45k+ DPS while the Guardian waits for Reinforcement to pop? Do the math. About the dates, yes that is my bad, I often keep forgeting over there you guys go mm/dd/year where here we go dd/mm/year, so yes, your right, that is my bad. Still Skel, besides that, the fact still remains that when you "advise" people how to play, you compare it all from a high end raiding point of view which when those people you "advise" fail and come back here or too EQ2flames, you guys say nothing except you suck, gg or dont know what to tell you and total negate the fact that maybe they don't have the gear you have or the raid doesn't have the experience your raid has, as rabid.pooh and Kaberu also pointed out which people just seem to randomly blow by that point.
    As for attacking Skel? No, I am not directly attacking him, just his opinion of Buckler being superme, he knows it isn't the only succesful way to tank and I know Skel has been exteremely succesful as a Berserker, but you guys give him a little too much credit, there is no one person on a raid and Skel is only as succesful as his raid lets him be, without the raid supporting him, there would be no Skel.
  19. ARCHIVED-LygerT Guest

    great points and something i tried to convey many times but often times it is drowned out in a sea of hardcore raid geared zerk chatter, alot of those who give advice here only give it from their own personal perspective which is not always suitable for just anyone with their raid support. i think alot of us forget what it was like to be newbs again without the uber proccing gear, static 50+ haste, GBH/clearcutter/bigwhateverweapon. i have tried to convey that everyone needs to remember who they are sending off to respec and what they should be looking for.
  20. ARCHIVED-PaganSaint Guest

    Reinforcement is lower than 1m40s recast timer properly geared/AA'd for that raid DPS situation.

    Fights you would need it on right away take ~30s-45s. Less than 1m between pulls for reinforcement to be up.

    So your point of waiting around for the skill is wrong.