Will KoS address Berserkers as Tanks vs Melee DPS for raids? 2 Possible Specialization Routes?

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Silelwen, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-Buggrit Guest

    lol at the op just lol
  2. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    This seems rather fishy to me. I thought SOE said that these new achievements where not going to be class making or breaking choices.

    "You really want to know why Berserkers in EQ2 are DPS Tanks? Because SOE is lazy. They didn't have the time before release to fully flesh out the armor system and if you inspect the original manuals, we were supposed to wear plate armor, and only guardians were to be allowed to wear the best mitigation armor called Vanguard. Instead all the tanks were allowed to wear it, and SOE's been having to play one hell of a balancing game ever since."

    Actually I think it's more likely that they just didn't want us to be stuck with sub-par armor compared to Guardians. Because, like they even said themselves, they never wanted Guardians to be the best and only tanks in the game. If that idea was ever actually in their plans at all at any point then it went straight out the window before the game was even lauched. So get over it already.
  3. ARCHIVED-Excedium Guest

    Woops sorry you misunderstood my statement Infernus. Im not very good at expressing myself well in english. By the motto " If it aint broke dont fix it. Raid leaders got used to guardians so why change". I was trying to possibly explain the raid leader mindset now about still keeping the Guardian as the permanent Raid MT". I came from EQ as a 70 war with eveyr possible AA into defensive or hp becuase I love tanking and was one of the MTs in my guild.

    Of course there were only 3 tanks back in EQ the choices were easy. Warrior always remained best raid tank due to their defensive ability that halfed damage for 3 minutes while also cutting dps by half. Pallies always felt second string in raids. Took a long time to balance the 3 tanks out.

    Now with 6 tanks its hell trying to balance them all out. And yes i chose Guardian from the description and from my expectations from my EQ warrior. Call me a fool but i wanted the most mitigation. I wanted the most hp. Now sucks that there was a stacking buff bug and thats the reason we were so good. It wasnt my fault at least i didnt want 100% mitigation. I blame the people taking advantage and SOE for not instantly jumping on it. But i did expect an edge in tanking for a lack of dps. I can't vouche for how u guys tanked or how any other fighter besides guards tanked pre LU13. My friend started his bezerker from his EQ 1 bezerker and i know his mindset was "im giving up some tanking for more dps". And boy would he out dps in EQ.

    So it went from buff bug, which we didnt ask for, to the unfair LU 13 making us tank equal when I think we shouldnt. There should be degrees and to a point there is. Bruisers with most dps but would be the least in tanking ability(not horrible at tanking but the least of all fighters), and so on till you get to the guardian with best tanking ability but lowest dps.

    Maybe they could have just had a patch the moment they saw the buff bug and in bold letters say. WE FIXED THE GUARDIAN BUFF STACKING BUG. Then start the tweaking from there. But this is coming from my narrow minded warrior exp from eq 1.

    I'm not against anyone else tanking. EQ 2 is not EQ 1 i know. Maybe make encounters where certain fighters would be the preferred tank for the situation or raid since EQ 2 is more flexible.

    *Neat factoid* Guardian protective skills are derived from the /Shield command warriors got in EQ 1. It worked pretty much the same way if u made the command into a macro. We took 75% of the damage of target while target took 50%. It lasted for12 seconds with a 3 minute refresh timer. Rarely used it since at high end chanters or whatever one be one rounded even in groups haha.
  4. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "i chose Guardian from the description and from my expectations from my EQ warrior"

    In this game, Berserkers and Guardians are both classified as Warriors. And contrary to what some people believe, the archetype system was not completely removed in LU19, making each subclass totally independent from all the others. It still exists just as it always has it's just that new characters are not forced to play through the generic classes to get to their final subclass anymore, they just get the final choice right from the start. But that doesn't change the fact that a Brigand is still considered a type of scout and Berserkers and Guardians are still classified as Warriors just as we always have been.

    "So it went from buff bug, which we didnt ask for, to the unfair LU 13 making us tank equal when I think we shouldnt. There should be degrees and to a point there is. Bruisers with most dps but would be the least in tanking ability(not horrible at tanking but the least of all fighters), and so on till you get to the guardian with best tanking ability but lowest dps."

    The problem with that system is that in the end you have only one real tank and the rest are basically just wannabes. Either wannabe tank or wannabe DPS. Or in the case of being a Pally then I supposed you have the option of being a wannabe healer. None of the other tanks are really cared for then because they are in fact sub-par in every department compared to other classes. Because being classified as tanks they will never get the same DPS as any true DPS class. So they are not wanted for that job either when there are other classes that are far better at it. So then they are pretty much stuck not being truly wanted for anything and being considered useless in groups AND raids. Monks and Bruisers still have that problem even now because they are avoidance-based tanks and avoidance will never be as reliable as mitigation and there is no way they can change that. But since they are still considered tanks and they have that uber avoidance and a high amount of HP they will never be allowed to have the same DPS as a scout or a mage DPS class. They have virtually no utility value either, so no one really cares to have them in their groups at all. But before LU13 all of the fighter classes were stuck in that same boat. Now at least all the plate tanks have a pretty much equal chance at being just as good as the others in the tanking department, whether they are offensive or defensive in nature. Now sure why you think that is so unfair. The way the system was before was unfair because Guardians were bugged in a way that made them untouchable in the tanking department and, like I said, all the other tanks in the game were just stuck being sub-par wannabes. I guess it must be nice being on top but in this game that is just not allowed. It's high time for you to realize that, accept it, and move on.

    I would also like to mention something else about the achievements system coming out in KoS. The OP suggested that every subclass was going to have its own separate set of trees to pick from. As in a Guardian will have it's own and a Berserker will have a completely different set. But I listened to that interview OGaming did with Blackguard where he fully explained the system and he said that all the abilities that a person will have to choose from are going to be based on the person's class (not subclass), as in being a Rouge (the specific example he gave) will give you access to a certain set of trees. Meaning that Brigands and Swashbucklers will have the same exact set of abilites to choose from. In which case we can expect the same thing will apply to Guardians and Berserkers as well.

    Anyways the NDA for KoS was officially released today so we should be getting a lot more information posted from people on Beta about how the achievments work including a full list of all the abilites that will be available to each class.
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 02-08-200605:18 PM
  5. ARCHIVED-Excedium Guest

    True but it would be a system you never reveil to the public. Sorta they way Sony wont give us solid numbers on which mage does the most dps or who truely takes the least damage overall. Plus it sounds like you give the playerbase no credit. People dont always try and get a perfect group. Ive been in a group with 2 fighters more then once. Been in a group with a monk and their dps was amazing compared to mine. They fit fighter dps role in my mind just fine.If there wouldnt have been a horrible bug to guards would things be where they are now? Guards being Raid MTs was an EQ 1 raid mentality since thats where the playerbase was migrating from. They might not have wanted that image but they sure as heck didnt change the manual to reflect that

    I know the Dev team has stated that even though the archtype system isnt there nemore that they arent ignoring it but what of new players who wont know it ever existed. I still blame Sony for making 6 tank classes when only 1 or 2 tops can hold the MT spot in a group. Adds are almost triviliazed in this game so offtanking or mezzing from enchanters is almost not needed, well in group situations. It comes down to Guard utility is null if were not grouped while the rest of the fighters enjoy it in groups and solo. Everytime i start a new MMO ive been considering rolling a Paladin or a Bard of sorts because ive wanted the utlity that keeps a group running smoothly. But in the end i just wanna take the beatings and be the last one standing as i tell everyone to run haha. Cant blame me for wanting an edge due to my horrible dps and my dependancy to a group.

    Also if there is a defensive boost or anything of the sorts in one of the trees coming in KoS im all for it. If there was a defensive or offensive boost skill tree which one would u guys choose? All im saying is ur happy where your at. I'm almost there. Either tweak my utility so we shine more there or hike my tanking. Dont increase my dps i could care less.
  6. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "True but it would be a system you never reveil to the public. Sorta they way Sony wont give us solid numbers on which mage does the most dps or who truely takes the least damage overall."

    Yeah like a stealth nerf. I don't agree with that kind of system. Especially if my class is one of the ones being stealth nerfed. Can you really blame me? Come on. You're basically trying to say that it's ok for SOE to stealth nerf certain classes and let other classes be overpowered compared to them. As long as your class is the one of the ones coming out on top of course. That's kind of the way it was before LU13. But then they fixed it. I find it rather funny that you expect other people to put up with that kind of bullcrap but if the tables are reversed, oh no you can't take it and cry like a baby. HAHA.

    "People dont always try and get a perfect group. Ive been in a group with 2 fighters more then once. Been in a group with a monk and their dps was amazing compared to mine. They fit fighter dps role in my mind just fine."

    I can't believe you are actually suggesting that a group is not or should not be "perfect" without your class tanking. Err no, I can believe it but then I can't believe that you posted that suggestion here on the Berserker forum and actually expect any of us to agree with you. That's hilarious.

    "Guards being Raid MTs was an EQ 1 raid mentality since thats where the playerbase was migrating from."

    Hey guess what? Not everyone who plays this game actually played EQ1 at all. I personally did not. It's not like it was a requirement. That game was totally and completely different than this one so it does not matter in the slightest, so quit trying to compare the two to support your arguement. This is a whole new game. And correct me if I'm wrong but there was no Guardian class in EQ1 anyway. There was a Warrior class. And like I said, both Berserkers and Guardians are classified as Warriors in this game. Why do you keep forgetting that?

    "They might not have wanted that image but they sure as heck didnt change the manual to reflect that."

    The manual for this game that some people like to keep referring for some odd reason didn't mean squat the day the game was launched, they had changed so many things in the game since the time it was written and the time the game was actually released that it became completely useless.

    "I know the Dev team has stated that even though the archtype system isnt there nemore that they arent ignoring it but what of new players who wont know it ever existed."

    That's a good question but I think they will figure it out soon enough. And if not it may not even really matter. It probably wouldn't change how they chose to play their class anyway. However, the archetype tree is still posted on the web page at eq2players.com that you go to get the spell lists for all the classes.

    "It comes down to Guard utility is null if were not grouped while the rest of the fighters enjoy it in groups and solo."

    Berserkers don't get any more utility than Guardians do. Not sure where you get that idea. Check this out...we get a group STR buff and you get a group buff for offensive melee skills...we get a group HP regen buff and you get a group max HP buff...we get a group Berserk buff and you get a group defense buff...that's it. Not a whole lot of difference there if you ask me. Plus you get things like Sentry Watch, Guardian Sphere, and Aussage which we don't get anything like. We do have more DPS. So what? I would not be complaining so much if I were you.

    "in the end i just wanna take the beatings and be the last one standing as i tell everyone to run haha"

    Wow have you ever actually tanked at all in this game? I mean really. Since when is the MT ever the last one standing in any group?

    "Cant blame me for wanting an edge due to my horrible dps and my dependancy to a group."

    Actually I can because I know for a fact that your "horrible dps" and "dependancy to group" is not nearly as bad as you try to make it sound. And I refuse to allow my class nerfed just to make you feel better about yourself.

    "All im saying is ur happy where your at. I'm almost there. Either tweak my utility so we shine more there or hike my tanking. Dont increase my dps i could care less."

    If you really don't care about your DPS at all then why do you keep complaing about it so much?
  7. ARCHIVED-Steelheart Guest

    No offense, but if i'd wanted to be a raid Mt i would have made my toon a guardian.
  8. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    ^ Well the good thing is now you don't have to be a Guardian to be a good raid MT. And it is a good thing IMO.
  9. ARCHIVED-Excedium Guest

    I didnt say stealth nerf. What i meant is that it would be a system in place at the start of an MMO. Scale the classes to my example(like the manual stated which i know holds no water anymore). When EQ 2 first launched(i dont have the numbers but can gurantee) there was a large % of EQ 1 playerbase playing EQ 2. You can't blame me a EQ 1 vet for expecting guardian to be the closest thing to "WARRIORS" and bezerkers being EQ 1 bezerkers. But like u said u didnt play EQ 1 so u couldnt possibly understand. Im not out to nerf anyone but it sure as heck will sound like it cuz its impossible to balance 18 classes.

    My comment about staying and dying is just my sense of a warrior. If the crap hits the fan in EQ 1 i would yell RUN ill stay and die because it was my job to keep them safe. Dont think they ever listened since they were all guildies who stayed and die with me haha. You get nice dps as your description states. Thus why do u gripe when i ask for an edge in tanking to BALANCE it out. It wont happen and whatever im over it so im hoping our protective abilities get tweaked that would make me happier as i dont have a problem with my tanking ability. Plus just saw the skill trees for KoS its getting me excited. Gonna have to spread my points out to get the 4th ranks on 3 of them but its also gonna add dps at the same time since the third ranks are dps based. Not what i was imagining but thats what the devs planned as to not make one line all of the defensive/tanking bits so it wouldnt be seen as essential to have like EQ 1 AAs.
  10. ARCHIVED-SugarGirl Guest

    I still can't figure out why guardians and zerkers are going back and forth on this. If your a zerker that needs more mitigation... put a Guard in you group. If you're a guard and want better DPS and group aggro, put a zerker in. Every clas is whining about what one class has over another. The simple point that everyone seems to forget is that EQ2 is an MMORPG. You are supposed to work with other classes and other people to make [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] work.
  11. ARCHIVED-nosajr Guest

    I kinda have to agree with the previous post here, albeit a little less bluntly. :smileysurprised:

    As a level 60 Zerker, I can out DPS rangers on occasion on Raids, and Tank as well as Gaurdians to boot. It all comes down to how you play your class, and what buffs you can get on yourself. Oh yeah, gear. It's ALL about the gear. Set yourself up with pure strength for DPS, and STA / AGI for tanking. I don't go for the Amazing DPS in under 10 seconds. I have sustained 500+ DPS for 1:09 for 48K+ dmg. I can do this repeatedly, raid mob after raid mob. It's all about timing. What CA's to use when, so that you ALWAYS have something to click for dmg. As far as Tanking, the same rules apply. Space your Mit buffs, taunts. Get ALL of your taunts as well. (Including the one from Splitpaw)
  12. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "I didnt say stealth nerf. What i meant is that it would be a system in place at the start of an MMO. Scale the classes to my example(like the manual stated which i know holds no water anymore)."

    In that case the other classes may as well not even exist at all then because no one will want to play them. No one wants to play a gimped class, everyone wants to be the best at something, or at least as good as everyone else.

    "You get nice dps as your description states."
    Did you read the new class description they have out for the Berserker now? It's much more descriptive and befitting to us than the previous one was. It's posted on the website and is also shown at the new character creation scene.

    "Thus why do u gripe when i ask for an edge in tanking to BALANCE it out."


    Because, you just don't understand how our classes are balanced. According to SOE, a Berserker's DPS is factored into his tanking ability. It's not like our DPS is something extra that we get on top of the same exact abilities that Guardians get for tanking. That is another common misconception among Guardians. And because of this extra DPS we have we get less defensive and protection abilites like the ones you specialize in. That's why you get an extra AOE taunt and your HTL thing works a lot better than ours, and you get things like Aussage, Guardian Sphere, and Stone Tower, which we get NOTHING like. That extra DPS is the only thing we have that you don't that lets us keep up with you as a viable tanking class.

    "You can't blame me a EQ 1 vet for expecting guardian to be the closest thing to "WARRIORS" and bezerkers being EQ 1 bezerkers."

    Actually I can because like I said I never played EQ1 and playing EQ1 was never a requirement for starting out in this game. And obviously this game is totally different than EQ1. I think you should have realized that before you starting playing instead of just assuming that everything in it would be exactly the same and that everyone else would be below you in the tanking department just because you picked the class that you thought would always be the best at it. And that's the real problem here...it's not that you can't tank at all or just as well as any of the other fighters in this game...you are only upset because the rest of the fighters are not below you, at least not any longer.

    "Im not out to nerf anyone but it sure as heck will sound like it cuz its impossible to balance 18 classes."

    Yeah ok and you want to make sure your that class is the one that comes out on top of everyone else's and you expect everyone else to just shut up and eat it.

    "Plus just saw the skill trees for KoS its getting me excited."

    Me too, and did you notice that Guardians and Berserkers get the exact same ability trees to choose from?