Will KoS address Berserkers as Tanks vs Melee DPS for raids? 2 Possible Specialization Routes?

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Silelwen, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-Excedium Guest

    Hey Guardian here got sick of reading so many negative posts in the guard forumn. Kfizzle, from my EQ 1 raiding, havent raided much or at all in EQ 2, but i take it its the same concept. During a raid its not about going full blown DPS. If your surprised you pulled aggro, you shouldnt be. Ask scouts or mages if they go full blown, I'm sure they will tell you they have learned to hold back. I'm alo sure wizards dont nuke as soon as the raid target is engaged, unless they get a lot of aggro debuffs.
    Also about the AoE stuff guards get. I'm 55 and to the best of my knowledge here goes. We have Protect at 50 which is a AoE taunt, no damage. Then we get our AoE taunt - attack which isn't encounter limited. Topple being our only true AoE attack. Anchor is a nice abilitie which is aoe. It lowers the DPS and HASTE of mobs by a % and roots the mobs. Only set back is the debuff is linked to the root so if the root breaks, and it tends to within a few seconds we wave goodbye to the debuff. We as guardians only get one more defensive buff over you guys. It's the wall of might line. It roots us and steps up our mitigation for like 30 secs and has a chance to proc root on mobs if they hit us.
    The reason most guards are advocating more dps is because we have been told were not gonna be what we were pre lu13. To be honest screw dps i could care less. I rolled a Guardian because i wanted and have always wanted in all MMOs to have the most defense and or mitigation because i luv tanking. I know we get the highest mitigation but its nothing to brag about. Im happy. I handle group encounters fine. Havent had a pissing contest with a berzerker but hey why would i need to if one of us is designated an MT. I personally would like a small hike in mit to make up for our lame dps to make up for the balancing of all tanks. I mean, not sure wherei heard this, but i hear guards in offensive stance do less dps then bezerkers in defensive and i think they didnt mean AoE damage.
    Anywho if we cant get a defensive hike then i would LOVE some of our protective abilities tweaked. Atm yes we do manage to increase the overall damage the groups take but we spread it around. We dont get a hate transfer just a permanent hate debuff we can place on an ally. I hear bezerkers can revive wow that blew my mind and didnt believe it till my friend did it. We get sentry watch awesome ability but havent gotten a chance to use it yet hehe. Oh maybe make intercept have a bigger protecting radius. I hate inching over to the caster who grabbed aggro.
    Plus im sure guards are mostly raid MTs now because it must be a hard habit to break. Im sure bezerkers can fill the raid spot as well as pallies and SKs. Not sure about monks or bruisers. Or its simply that old motto, if it aint broke dont fix it. Raid leaders have been using guards since forever so why change.
  2. ARCHIVED-SugarGirl Guest

    I think, out of the whole post, this is the best point made (I don't mean that as a flame). I've seen so many temper tantrums thrown by guards if they are asked to ST or MA to someone other than a guard. I have never understood this.... isn't this exactly what alll the other tank classes are being asked to do? Play a support role?
    Guards, IMO, are by no means gimped, they just weren't ever meant to be the end all be all of tanking. Those protection spells you have would come in even handier if you used them outside of the MT position. I am not saying that one tank is better than the other, simply that there are going to be complaints on bothe ends until we all learn to suck it up and admit that there are some jobs the other classes might be better at from time to time.
    I'm really sorry Guards, you are going to have to learn to share at some point
  3. ARCHIVED-julius_skeezer Guest

    wow, ive read literally thousands of posts

    this is LITERALLY, no exaggeration, one of the dumbest posts ive ever read

    honestly, this one takes the cake. you should be proud of yourself.
  4. ARCHIVED-julius_skeezer Guest

    "" Zerkers do good DPS for a tak class, especially in AE. If you wanted to be a DPS toon on a raid, you should have rolled one of them""

    Did some moron just wake up one day and start saying "Toon" and "Roll" all day every day? Personally, on my server, everyone says them, all day, every day

    Let me break it down for some of you. "Toon" I wont comment on. Its dumb enough as it is. "Roll" howeveer, i will. you don't ROLL anything. you CHOOSE a character that has predetermined stats. there is no ROLLING. what genius started describing character generatrion as this? Honestly it makes me sick.

    DId some moron just start blathering TOON and ROLL non stop and now all of you spout if off every day as well? Honestly what a bunch of idiots. Use some common sense people
  5. ARCHIVED-Spike92 Guest

    On the raids now our MT gets tired of tanking, so he lets me tank the yellow cons and he tanks the orange cons. It seems to work well since i have more mit then the MT anyways, so i just laugh at the yellow cons as they try to kill me and don't even scratch my armor.
  6. ARCHIVED-pharacyde Guest

    Tanking is all about the gear to sruvive. All about the quality of the spells and the player to keep aggro. Amen.

    Evenly geared tanks get evenly hit. They only advantage a guardian has, are his hp's and that shield spell that absorbs 3hits. And I consider the shield thing more as a fail safe. I have had guardians just loose aggro over and over again. I have had guardians keep aggro for like forever and never loose it. Same for zerkers ... It's all about player/gear.

    Anyway tbh, lets not fool us. The usual raid setup is guardian mt because he has more hp's and a fail safe. And zerkers is more in the melee dps grp for his haste/str buffs. And it has nothing to do with how well they keep aggro, both classes can do it fine.
  7. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    I agree with SugarGirl. Guardians really need to stop whining and being so selfish. It's old. No one's buying it. They still have the most defense, the most HP, and the most taunts of all the tank classes in the game. Yet they are still not happy.

    "I rolled a Guardian because i wanted and have always wanted in all MMOs to have the most defense and or mitigation because i luv tanking."

    Well news flash, in this MMO there is no one tank that has everything and is the best and only tank. There are different tanks with different skills that they can use to get the job done equally well. At least that's the way it's supposd to be, per SOE.

    "if it aint broke dont fix it. Raid leaders have been using guards since forever so why change."
    Because all the other tank classes were sick of being stuck as nothing more than sub-par DPS/utility classes in groups AND raids whenever there was a Guardian around. It was so bad that even Guardians that were several levels below other types of tanks would still be designated as MT before any of the non-Guardian classes would. Not just in raids either, but even in regular groups this was happening. It was ridiculous. Now instead of being automatically defaulted as MT just becuse you're a Guardian you actually have to earn the proper respect of your peers in order to be chosen for that posistion just like the rest of us do and you might very well find yourself getting stuck in a support role from time to time while another class tanks. Oh well, I suggest you get used to it. You're not the gods of all tanking anymore. Not that you were ever supposed to be in the first place. SOE admitted that was a bug.

    julius,

    You need to chill out, seriously. A lot of the jargon that's used in MMO's today comes from veterans of the old pen-and-paper RPG's and MUD's. I suggest you get with the program and quit slamming people just becuase they use terminology you aren't familiar with.
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 02-03-200611:39 AM
  8. ARCHIVED-EnigmaticCipher Guest

    imho I haven't seen a T6 fight that I would pick a guardian over a berseker to tank. There may be very few occassions when a guardian could be considered a better choice but the VAST majority of raid encounters, especially multiple mobs which happens to be most of T6 fights...berserkers will hands down be the better tank. In fact, the only true reason I see guardians tanking T6 encounters now is because the berserker can do SOOO much more DPS in a non-tank roll. With the right group set ups there is NOT a single fight I don't make the top 8 and for the majority of the fights I'm either 1 or 2. For folks holding back on rampage and open wounds, you gotta get together with your healers and educate them as to what you can do when you go all out. They have to know how to heal to make your class max. it's DPS. You have to know how to take advantage of reinforcement, how to take advantage of dispatch, and numerous others to get your DPS in.

    If you're complaining about your berserker's DPS, you are not playing your character well.

    If you set up your raids with a berserker and no healer(s) you get a berserker that may do 200-300dps and you'll easily lose 500-700dps. When it comes to tanking, I'm in offensive stance and using a 2h every chance possible. If you're healers are skilled enough you can do this on a great many T6 encounters.
    Message Edited by EnigmaticCipher on 02-03-200604:01 PM
  9. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    I just thought I would post this for those that haven't seen it yet. When you go to make a new character now you get a new description of all the classes that are available for your character to choose from based on their race and alignment. Here is the one for the Berserker:
    [IMG]
    That just says it all. I rest my case.
  10. ARCHIVED-Impetus Guest

    Exactly! "Berserkers stand at the forefront of battle, unleashing their devastating rage upon the enemy!"

    That means DPS class, right?!!!

    What? There's more in the quote? Oh.

    :p
  11. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    ^ DPS classes do not stand at the forefront of battle. They stand behind it. :p

    This is what I have been saying all along. We are tanks and quite feriocious ones too. Just as we always have been and always will be in this game. And now we have very definition of an offensive tank attached to our name to back that up. Anyone who tries to deny it now is just plain kidding themselves and deserves to be mocked and told to reroll.

    Another thing I forgot to mention in light of the new class definition is the fact that every class comes with its own set of armor now at level 1. New characters are no longer forced start out completely naked and make do with makeshift armor until they reach level 20. And what kind of armor do Berserkers get to start out with? Plate, just like Guardians. We are no longer stuck with wearing leather and chain armor for the first 19 levels as we were in the past. We get a set of plate armor at day one.

    No longer should there be any confusion about the intended role of our class. It's all cut and dry now. Thank you SOE. :)
  12. ARCHIVED-SugarGirl Guest

    You know Infernious... if people would just read those class descriptions, there wouldn't be any need for the 100's of pages of posts :)
    I guess reading just doesn't come easy to some people.
  13. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    LMFAO, not even worth time explaining =) Thank you SOE for KoS, see ya'll in the next expansion!


    (Oh and don't worry, every type of berserker will love the expansion, and there are many types of berserkers now, sorry if you guys want just 1 singular classification, but when ya LFG, you'll have to find out)

    P.S. Oh and reading has nothing to do with this conversation, after KoS, you'll realize how much a fool you made yourself look like with those type statements.
    Message Edited by Silelwen on 02-04-200602:51 PM
  14. ARCHIVED-Spike92 Guest

    If our class is made into **** DPS, I guess I will retire him, since I have a warlock and a Ranger that can do Dps. We are not dps, we are a aoe aggro machine KThnxBye.
  15. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "every type of berserker will love the expansion, and there are many types of berserkers now"

    Good. If you actually bothered to read any of my previous posts then you would see that is one of the very things I even suggested might be a good idea, although I still think there is a high chance it will make the game a lot more confusing than it really needs to be. More choices and customization options are good but then losing some of your identity is bad. It might not be worth it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

    "Oh and reading has nothing to do with this conversation, after KoS, you'll realize how much a fool you made yourself look like with those type statements."
    I really don't know what you're talking about. All I have ever done is listened to what SOE has told me and taken what they have given me and learned to use my abilites the way they were intended to be used in order to play my class correctly based in the information that was made available. You're the one who was never happy with our class as it was designed, you already admitted that. And the problem here is now is that you just can't admit it when you're the one that's wrong and have been wrong all this time even after the proof as been shown.

    On the other hand, if they are changing the game and adding new ways for people to branch out and actually specialize their class in the next expansion then so be it. But that is a totally different subject as far as I am concerned as that was never really my arguement with you at all. My whole arguement with you was simply your blatent denial of the intended role of our class and your admitted desire to have it nerfed. Of course you keep changing your story and contradicting yourself too, over and over, which doesn't help your case at all.
  16. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    Could you please just [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] infernious? Gah, you sound like such a whining fookin cry baby throughout your posts in these forums. I never said we should be nerfed (joked about it after you balatantly say we should in your posts about how uber we are), I hoped that in the next expansion Berserkers could choose different paths. Not all be the same (right now the Berserker EQ2 model absolutely does not fit the D&D definition of a berserker, but that's obviously besides the point). You really want to know why Berserkers in EQ2 are DPS Tanks? Because SOE is lazy. They didn't have the time before release to fully flesh out the armor system and if you inspect the original manuals, we were supposed to wear plate armor, and only guardians were to be allowed to wear the best mitigation armor called Vanguard. Instead all the tanks were allowed to wear it, and SOE's been having to play one hell of a balancing game ever since. You constantly try to attack me as if I don't know what's going on, when honestly it seems like you are the one new to the game and cannot touch my play experience in this game as a crafter and adventurer. I don't know who you are, yet I know all the top guys on Befallen (prior to DoF that is), just as they know me.

    Anyways, SOE must have been reading this thread (lol actually prolly not, but anyways) because the original achievement systems is not what it is now and thank goodness. We do have the ability to specialize several different ways which was the entire point of my original post. I wanted to bring attention to it so maybe SOE would realize that not all berserkers wanted to be raid tanks and since we were specializing (remember the achievement system isn't like the AA system in EQ where you get to learn every skill) that we would be able to specialize in different ways instead of just being the best possible raid tank you could be. SOE seems to have realized this also and they changed the achievement system in to what it is now and have said there will no longer be any radical changes to it, so we now have specialization in different forms, exactly what I wanted and I believe the majority of the playerbase will absolutely love KoS.
    Message Edited by Silelwen on 02-06-200602:26 PM
  17. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "Could you please just [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] infernious."

    Um no. And now I'm really not going to just because you said that.

    BTW people need to stop misspelling my name. Kthx.

    "I never said we should be nerfed"

    Liar. You said oh gee yeah I guess we are the uberest raid tanks ever in the game so I think I will go tell SOE that so that we can be nerfed all to hell. Bascially. Now you're trying to play it off as a joke. Well I didn't find it amusing now did I? I wasn't the only one either. Because even though I know very well that SOE doesn't give a crap what you say it's just the fact that if you had the chance you would do it and say to hell with everyone else.

    "right now the Berserker EQ2 model absolutely does not fit the D&D definition of a berserker, but that's obviously besides the point"

    Yeah obviously since this isn't D&D now is it?

    "You really want to know why Berserkers in EQ2 are DPS Tanks? Because SOE is lazy. They didn't have the time before release to fully flesh out the armor system and if you inspect the original manuals, we were supposed to wear plate armor, and only guardians were to be allowed to wear the best mitigation armor called Vanguard. Instead all the tanks were allowed to wear it, and SOE's been having to play one hell of a balancing game ever since."

    You act as though Monks and Bruisers do not exist. What about the avoidance tanks then? They've had taunts from day one. If SOE had wanted us to be a leather-wearing class they could have easily made us one. It's not like there weren't 2 other fighter classes in the game that were already like that. FYI I think our class is balanced just fine the way it is right now. Our DPS was overpowered before LU13. If you really think that SOE intended for us to be a DPS-only class then why did they nerf our DPS in LU13 and not our tanking ability? The fact is, most Berserkers are perfectly happy being tanks. The whole reason that most people pick this class to start with is beacause of it's ability to tank well and still do some decent DPS at the same time. Very few people actually choose this class when all they really want is uber DPS with no tanking ability and the ones who did that are not too smart if you ask me because they obviously didn't do any actual research on the class's abilites before they rolled it, they only picked it because it had a cool sounding name. Kind of like you, who picked the class based on your prior experience with D&D and expected the EQ2 Berserker to be exactly the same. Like I said, that was your mistake.

    "You constantly try to attack me as if I don't know what's going on, when honestly it seems like you are the one new to the game and cannot touch my play experience in this game as a crafter and adventurer..."

    You're the one that tried to use that lame class description they had potsed on the website to support your arguement that our class was meant to be a DPS-only class which proves that you don't give a crap about any of our actual abilites and what they are actually meant to be used for. And you keep referring back to that stupid manual that didn't mean squat the day the game was launched over a year ago and much less has any meaning at all now yet you still keep it around and try to use it as a crutch to support your arguements. So it's really no wonder why it looks like you don't know what's going on. Becuase either you really don't have any clue at all or you just don't care what is actually going on in the game becuase you are stuck with this set image in your mind of what a Berserker is supposed to be and you are just not willing to deviate from it one bit despite the fact that it never was anything like what you wanted it to be from the get go. And being that there are several other classes in this game already that could easily satisfy your desire for uber melee DPS that is pretty lame. And even now that they made a new class description that is actually a lot more descriptive than the last one was and is posted right there at the character creation scene for everyone to see and even says outright that we are meant to be tanks that use our offensive nature to keep aggro away from our friends you still can't accept it. Very lame indeed.

    "so we now have specialization in different forms"

    So then like I said, there are going to be characters in the game with the same class name but in reality they are not the same class at all as far as their abilites go. Is that really what you want? In that case why didn't they just make up new class names then and have the AA's lead to new subclass choices? That would make more sense IMO.
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 02-06-200606:57 PM
  18. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    I'm don't know how to read as it has been stated by posters in this thread, so unfortunately I cannot read what ya just typed, Have a nice day!
  19. ARCHIVED-BorrGrimm Guest

    Sheesh ok here is some clarification.

    And to make this simple I will put it in a list:

    1. Berserkers are a Tanking Class and NOT a dps class at all (if there is any dps tank class then it's Monks and Bruiser, and they beat us by a long shot). The way SOE designed this game was to have Good classes have more group buffs and have Evil classes do more damage and debuffs. Proof? Most damage capable healer class...Fury, most dps warrior...Berserker, most dps brawler...Bruiser (they get +5str per lvl while monks get +2 or +3 i forgot) etc.

    2. Berserks can tank any raid, mob or anything as well as a guardian EXCEPT...when you are in the situation when you are tanking a 68 epicx4 and mitigation and avoidance are disregarded because of the way the game is structured, a guardian's health will give you the fighting chance you need to kill that mob.

    3. I do not see why people think that Berserkers are suppose to be dps and completely don't expect Guardians to be dps when both classes get +5str per lvl but Guardians get +3sta 2+agi and Berserkers get +2sta +3agi.

    4. Be happy being a Berserker that you are so universal that you can tank 99% of the mobs just as well as any tank class and have a role to play if you are not MT in a raid or group. Berserkers get to do more damage, better for exping, dueling, soloing etc than Guardians but, they get the highest lvl possible raid in the game. If you ask me, it's fair.

    -Borr from Grobb
    Message Edited by BorrGrimm on 02-06-200605:40 PM
  20. ARCHIVED-SkarlSpeedbump Guest

    If they allow class changes like they are suggesting, you will have a lot more berzerkers in the form of converted guardians I think.

    Buy stock in Berzerker masters now 4tw!!!

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