Will KoS address Berserkers as Tanks vs Melee DPS for raids? 2 Possible Specialization Routes?

"I'm totally agree, very good post IMO."

Thanks. I appreciate your support. Like I said, I'm just doing the best I can to protect our class from unneccary changes, nerfs, and attacks and fight for our right to continue to be viable tanks for both groups and raids in the expansion. The fact is there are plenty of DPS clases in this game already. We don't need another one. Right now there are 8 pure DPS classes and only 4 plate tanks. There is no valid reason to have one of the few plate tanks that currently exist converted into another DPS class. There are 6 healers that can all do their job equally well. Some have better wards, some have more direct heals, some have better buffs and more HoT's, etc. But they can still all be used for the basic purpose of healing in most cases, and that includes on raids. The rest of the classes are a combination of tank, utility, and/or DPS, all of which have more DPS than any of the plate tanks do. Actually I take that back...Berserkers still have a lot more DPS than Enchanters do. Whether that is right or not I am not going to debate, but that is the fact of the matter at this present time. In any case the choice is simple. If all you want is uber DPS then you don't roll a plate tank and then cry about your lack of DPS and then try to get the class changed into another DPS class just because you don't feel like rerolling. That is nothing more than pure laziness and total disregard for everyone who actually plays the class the way it was meant to be played and for the purpose that it was created for.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 01-27-200612:09 PM

I dont think you can see what the AS will achieve infernus006, you seem to be thinking a somewaht generic style where if a Guardian specs out to be a offensive tank he will be as good at DPS as a Berserker will be or if a Berserker specs out to be a Tank he will be as good as a Guardian.

I can assure you it wont even matter if we go Defensive line with the new AS abilitys because if a Guardian goes Defensive line he will still be better at tanking then we ever will be, the same goes if a Guardian goes a Offensive line and a Berserker goes Offensive too, the Guardian will never be as good as the Berserker, why? Because this is where the game is going, more defined roles. There will be no more arch type system, people need to remember this.

The other thing alot of people seem to be thinking is these AS abilitys will be generic as in what a Guardian gets a Berserker will get, i can assure you again, this wont be the case to a certain extent where Berserkers will still be better DPS class then a Guardian will be and Guardian will still be better tanks then Berserkers ever will be, the AS will just make it all stand out alot more.

A Guardian isnt going to go a Offensive line when they dont even do decent or even mediocre DPS to begin with, why would they when they can just go full defensive, increase there tankjng ability more then a Berserker ever can and take group content with one healer where other tanks will more then likely need 2 or maybe even 3 leaving spots open for some very high DPS classes, i see more of the PP Keeper type instances in KoS where the last mobs are likely to be 5 - 7 levels higher then the group and orange con.

No one has said or mentioned that Berserkers will be nerfed to leather, i dont know where people get their information form but do keep in mind that the AS will work like this, each and every class has 5 paths they can chose from with out being able to master them all, you will only be able to master 1 full path you chose or mix and match and become somewhat a hybrid. How much of a Hybrid you wish to become is upto you, the player.

So in saying that, who knows, a Berserker might be able to take the path of a Offensive line and get certain benefits while wearing leather armor, on the other hand if they go Defensive they might get certain benefits from wearing plate, in other words, there is going to be a choice and its upto you, the player to decide which route you wish to take.

Only time will tell.
Message Edited by -Aonein- on 01-28-200605:18 AM

"A Guardian isnt going to go a Offensive line when they dont even do decent or even mediocre DPS to begin with"

Are you saying that Guardians won't get any offensive options at all or they will be there just no one will want to choose them? That seems kind of funny to me. I think the whole point of having more options is so we can improve areas that we are not happy with. And like I said many Guardians are very unhappy with their current level of DPS. So I think many of them will choose to go with more offensive options if they are made available to them in the expansion through their AA's.

"Guardian will still be better tanks then Berserkers ever will be"

I'm really not sure what makes you think that. Because that is exactly what they were trying to get away from with the combat upgrade that came with LU13. They even said so themselves. What makes you think they want to go back on that now?

You also seem to be forgetting the fact that tanking isn't all about defense and defense alone. That's why there are offensive tanking classes in this game. Berserkers and SK's. Our extra DPS aids us in tanking and makes up for the lack of extra defense stuff that tanks like Guards and Pallies get. It's doesn't make us any better or worse tanks than them. Just different. That seems to be what SOE truly wants and I'm not sure why anyone wants to agrue with that.

You can keep denying it all you want but here is what Moorgard said about the combat change in regards to fighters before it was released:

"Fighters are tanks. They don't all tank the same, and tanking isn't all they do, but that doesn't change the core role all fighters share. While some might envision a different approach, that role isn't going to go away just because some might prefer a different take on certain classes.
The combat revamp isn't just a changing of balance numbers; it is a reevaluation of abilities. For fighters, this means some expanded spell lines, some shifting around of abilities from one subclass to another, and changes to the way defensive buffs work.
Right now, guardians are far and away the best tank due to a combination of their buff stacking and the way defensive buffs are seen in combat rolls. Both those aspects are changing. Think of the guardian's abilities as being spread around a bit to the other fighter classes.
In no particular order (other than pairing subclasses of the same class), here are a few (but not all) of the ways tanks will be distinguished from one another after the changes take effect.

• Guardians will have the greatest capability to grant their defense to others. They also have a greater number of taunts.
• Berserkers will do more damage than guardians, especially when tanking. While they also have taunts, part of their taunting comes from the damage they do.
• Paladins have heals and a nice array of taunts.
• Shadowknights have lifetaps and higher damage than paladins.
• Monks excel in avoidance, and their ability to purge negative spell effects is being expanded.
• Bruisers mitigate a bit better and do more damage than monks, which again is the basis for part of their taunting ability.

All fighters will have useful defensive and offensive stances that they can choose depending on their role in the group. Additionally, each fighter will gain a significant resistance to a particular type of damage, which should make different classes be desirable under certain situations.
Again, this isn't about taking away tanking from guardians. I suspect after the revamp, in a lot of raid situations you'd still want a guardian as main tank. However, the changes should give more flexibility to other tank classes, and give situational advantages to each. Personally, I'm looking forward to that."
And once again, I have not heard anything about a new combat revamp coming with this next expansion that's going to totally replace the changes they made in the last one. Have you? The only thing they are supposedly changing is the way classes level up in the game. So when you start out a new character in the Island you get to choose its final subclass right from the start instead of having to wait until level 20. Some people seem to think that means they are taking the whole archetype system out of the game entirely. I don't think that is the case. The archytype tree will still be there. We are still going to be classified as Fighters and Warriors right alongside Guardians just as we always have been, like it or not. New characters just won't be forced to play a generic class for the first 20 levels of their life anymore, that's all. So let's not take things out of context.
But here's an idea...what if obtaining a certain number of AA's in a certain field granted you a new class name? So then a Berserker like me who went with all of the new defensive options avaialbe to our class in the expansion could become...say...a Sentinal...or something like that and still be an uber raid tank with at least some of the offensive capability that came from our heritage as a Berserker while those who went with all of the offensive options could become an uber DPS class with little or no tanking ability. And they would get a new name too. And those who spread out their AA choices instead of going with one set path would still be called Berserkers. What do you think? This would also be a way to have new classes added to the game without forcing veterans to reroll in order to play them. And like they are saying, the choices you make do not have to be permanent either, you can always go back and change your options if you are willing to spend the time needed to obtain the points again to do it or whatever is required for that. Just an idea. Otherwise I totally agree with what Moorguard said and all fighters should have an equal chance at tanking because that is our core function as SOE intended it to be. Face it, there just isn't a DPS-only fighter class in this game. There never was and there probably never will be.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 01-27-200603:25 PM

Infernus... That's a great quote but Berserkers now are in the role of guardians before the revamp, the undisputed king of raid tanking. I'm just going to agree with ya bro, Berserkers have the best DPS of all plate wearers, Berserkers are the Best Tank of all the Tanks. I'll forward this message on to SOE.

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Don't be a bell end, doing that would simply get us nerfed to hell!

^ That is exactly what he wants. Can't you tell? That's what this is all about. Getting us nerfed down to a DPS-only class. That's all he wants. He is also a liar. We are not the best tanks in the game right now and we never will be. He just wants everyone to think that so they will have a reason to nerf us. And he just doesn't want to accept the fact that all fighters are meant to have equal tanking ability just like Moorgard said. He wants Guardians to be the only viable raid tanks in the game leaving everyone else in a sub-par DPS role, even though they already said that is not the way things are supposed to be. Don't worry the people at SOE are not going to take a word he says seriously. He already admitted that he should have rolled a Ranger instead of a Berserker. Enough said.

"That's a great quote but Berserkers now are in the role of guardians before the revamp, the undisputed king of raid tanking."

Funny you should say that when just a second ago you said that Berserkers who tank raids on a regular basis are few and far between. You said that was a reason why it would be ok for them to nerf us out of that role, because it wouldn't effect very many people and no one would really care. Now you are saying that Berserkers have completely taking over the role of Guardians and everyone wants to have us instead of them as their MT for all raids now. You are totally contradicting yourself. How about getting your story straight?

Does anyone else feel that this thread is going round and round and round and round?

^ It is because Silelwen just won't give it up. And neither will I. I know exactly what his problem is though. He has a level 60 Berserker that's stuck in a raiding guild that already has an established MT and they won't let him tank and he doesn't want to leave and find another guild that actually needs an MT so he can do his job right. Or maybe they do let him tank but he just doesn't like doing it. It's obvious that he prefers being in a DPS role standing behind the mobs while assisting another tank. That is understandable, tanking is not for everyone. However he is sad that as a Berserker he can't touch Sorcs and Preds in the DPS parser so he feels all gimped. But the reason for that is because he is not playing his class the way it was intended to be played and he is expecting it to have more abilities to perform in a certain role that it was not made for. And that is his own fault. No fighter is ever going to get to the top of the DPS parser as long as they have any tanking ability at all. That is a given. And all fighters are meant to have at least some tanking ability per SOE. And Berserkers were made especially to be standing toe to toe with the enemy taking hits and the more hits we take the madder we get and so the more damage we do in return. That is what our class is all about. But he just can't accept that, oh no. He wants most of not all of our tanking ability removed just so he can have more DPS in the parser while standing behind the mobs. That is the bottom line. But they already said that is NEVER going to happen. He just needs to accept that and reroll so he can do what he wants and leave us the hell alone.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 01-27-200606:18 PM

Berserkers can tank just as well as berserkers...period. We hold agro better of course and when you're fighting 65+ mobs (Godking, Jura`nata, etc...) Both tank equally well. The reason some berserkers are put behind guardians is because we can be utilized for dps and not guardians...that's all..they get a bit more hp then us..and a lil bit more avoidance..against a 65+ mob that avoidance don't mean a thing. So right now we still are the cream of the crop for tanking or dps. nuff said...and btw if you wanna wear leather..umm there is leather armor avaliable at your nearest broker

Raive Mooshi
60 Berserker
Equinox
Innothule

Only 2 raid guilds on my server =) Each guild has their own designated main tank berserker, guardians have either sold their character or sidelined them for healers, etc. Still doesn't change the fact that when the game was 2 weeks old I choose berserker for my final archetype and never ever thought my role in the end game would be Raid Tanking, off-tanking maybe?

So all the 60 berserkers on my server are supposed to raid tank? What do you do in your guild bro? I mean being 13th on the server and all, my main tank was the 2nd 60 berserker in game and 1st on my server. The other guild's berserker was 12th ingame I believe and 2nd on server. BTW what guild you in on befallen? I was in Exile.

SOE, go ahead and do it. Make us a DPS class you know you want to.

I don't see why there would be an outcry... scouts got taunts and stances... hell Swashies have Open Wounds! I'll dwarf punt the first ranger I hear complain about our DPS.

I will never understand why some people feel that a Berserker is better off doing more DPS standing behind the mobs and hitting them in the back while someone else tanks them. That just doesn't make any sense to me. That is a scout's job. Some people have even suggested that we get a deaggro spell. Come on. Call me crazy but IMO that is not what being a Berserker is about at all. Personally I loath the idea of getting stuck behind the mobs while being forced to assist another fighter all the time. Who really wants that? Not me. Regardless of what type of armor they wear, if any, Berserkers are supposed to be fearless warriors that will stand face-to-face with an enemy and fight them to the death without any inhibition at all. In this game all the DPS classes are required to watch themselves and hold back a lot of the time so their MT can keep aggro. They also use deaggro spells to calm or evade their enemies to prevent them from turning on them, so they can keep hitting them from behind without getting creamed in one or two shots. That is not what I want. That is not something that a Berserker is supposed to be even capable of, at least not while they are in their Berserk state. The state of being Berserk is not about being in control of yourself. Yeah we get a few spells like Subdued Rage that reduce our DPS in exchange for some extra defense. But that is a spell we use to toughen ourselves up a bit to keep ourselves alive when we are taking too much damage, not to hide from the mobs and keep them from turning on us because we are afraid of getting hit at all. To me it makes more sense to have the Berserker be the one keeping the attention of the enemies since that's not hard for him to do with his pyschotic nature and he can take a lot of punishment as well. In any case, the OP of this thread has done nothing but try to decieve us with false information (aka lies). SOE has already said they will never do what he has suggested. So I am not worried about it any longer. All he wants is to ruin our class because he made a mistake and chose the wrong class for his character and now he is unhappy. But I really don't think they are ever going to do that. Because that would be stupid. I think the Berserker will always be a very strong tanking class in this game, as it should be. I will leave it at that.

If you can't make top 10 dps on parses (hell if you can't make top 5 dps) in any raid you aren't MTing you are setting your groups up wrong or playing your zerker very, very poorly.

See i'm not sure, maybe i'm doing something wrong then. I can and often do end up in the top 5 DPS wise, BUT i die alot too. I don't MT in the T6 raids i'm doing (usually its a guardian whos tanking) ... but in multimob encounters if i don't really hold myself back DPS wise, i draw agro of the linked mobs and all but the one the guardian is on decides i must die. I hold back alot of times, and i know in doing so i'm not doing all i can to help do damage. Don't get me wrong, i dont want us changed to a DPS class or our tanking removed ..... BUT the agro debuff was just for that very purpose when i mentioned it. I hate hitting Rampage only to see two or three mobs come on me, me make note of it on Vent, and then still die because it takes a couple to get them all off me, and since all the healers are spamming heals on the MT I'm now dead.

^ Guards have a bad reputation right now for being crappy at holding aggro on multimob encounters. Personally it does not surpise me one bit that they can't keep aggro from a Zerker with Open Woulds and Rampage stacked. But like I said, in that case they should have you be the MT instead of the Guard. Either that or just be more careful of when you use those spells. Nothing else you can do about it.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 01-31-200611:36 AM

Oh i'm not silly enough to try to stack the two anymore, when i do that i pull ALL the mobs. And while i agree with you that I should be the one tanking because of agro holding ability, they still like the guardian with all those HPs etc etc, so I don't have any choice in that regard. I hold back till the main mob is like half health now before i throw one of those up there, and even still i often draw agro first. I don't know, i dont want us changed too much I just wish there was a way i could unleash my ability to do some real damage without knowing that i'm gunna die.

"" Zerkers do good DPS for a tak class, especially in AE. If you wanted to be a DPS toon on a raid, you should have rolled one of them. You do alot of things a caster cant, so I dont think you should have that, and his DPS levels too. ""


I did choose and roll a DPS class, as advertised, the Beserker was a DPS class that sacrificed defense for offense..I want my old Beserker Back!

I'm totally thru with ya infernious, about all I can say is I'm involved in something special and extremely happy so since then stopped posting. I no longer need to comment on this thread, have a good day =)

"I did choose and roll a DPS class, as advertised, the Beserker was a DPS class that sacrificed defense for offense..I want my old Beserker Back!"

We do sacrifice defense for offense. We still have a hell of a lot more DPS than a Guardian does. Just not as much as you would like I guess. But Berserker = psychotank, not psychowimp. If you wanted to play a wimpy DPS class that does a lot of damage but can't take any hits then the Berserker was the wrong choice for you.