Will KoS address Berserkers as Tanks vs Melee DPS for raids? 2 Possible Specialization Routes?

Silewen,

"Until LU13, Guardians were your raid tanks. Berserkers have held the role for a few months, and people will swear to ya it's been like that since Day1."
More proof that you are totally full of it. Berserkers have always been tanks and good ones too. This is not something new that just came about with LU13. March 12th 2005 is when I made my char btw. And I played a Wizard for about a month before that. Let me tell you how it was. It's true that we weren't as good as Guardians but then neither was anyone else. Because Guardians were overpowered and they were unquestionably the best tanks in the game because of that, at least as far as taking hits was concerned. According to SOE they could actualy make themselves impervious to taking any damage, even in raids, because of the way they could stack their buffs. However Zerkers were the aggro gods. No one could pull aggro from us no matter what they did. We had a very strong reputation for being the best aggro tank in the game. And we could still take a lot of hits too, just not as much as a Guardian could. No one liked Pallies because they were very crappy at holding aggro. They were still tanks but they were thought of as crappy ones by most people just for that reason. Not sure what the deal with SK's was other than the fact that they were considered sub-par to Guardians like the rest of us. I know that Crusaders were and still are commonly thought of as being better support tanks than main tanks. That's not something new either. Monks and Bruisers were not considered tanks at all. No one in their right minds would have them as their MT, even for easy mobs. Having them become capable main tanks was a new thing that came out with LU13. So now who are you calling a newb? Before LU13 Zerkers were the second best tank class in the game and we were capable of tanking raids we were just not allowed to do it when there was a Guardian around.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 01-25-200611:45 AM

jesus christ you people need to shut the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up.

stop b1tch1ng.

guardians can tank
beserkers can tank.
beserkers can dps.

hip hip horray.

I AM AT NO POINT IN THIS THREAD REFERRING TO CHANGING BERSERKER'S ABILITY BEING GROUP TANKS!

I know berserkers were tanks since launch. I am talking about RAIDS, raid tanks!

I'm not saying take away our ability to tank raids. We will always be a group tank! I'm saying give us the ability to specialize into tanking or DPS which will only matter in raid situations. Maybe the specialization will increase our DPS arts by 20% if you go DPS route, and maybe the Tank route would increase your tanking arts by 20%.


EDIT: If you had to use a berserker for your raids before LU13 then your raid was gimped.
Message Edited by Silelwen on 01-25-200602:27 PM

I also wanted to add that in KoS we are going to be given the ability to specialize. What would you want? I'm pretty sure that there are 5 trees of specialization, and 3 of those are the different types of weapons (slashing, crushing, piercing) Not sure what the other 2 trees are, but I hope one is DPS and the other is Tanking. I'm not sure how many trees we can max specialize in, but it has been made clear that we cannot specialize in them all.

So basically what your saying is like ANOTHER Branching of our characters where we'd have to choose to be an offensive or defensive dude ... would there be a middle of the road thing? Like with our stances we can have offensive on, defensive, or no stance at all...(I'd still probably go offensive if it was my choice, especially if it wasnt a 'big hit' to my tanking ability, but if it is i wouldnt) ... If they do that with our character class though wouldnt they then have to do that with EVERY character class?

Message Edited by Promythyus on 01-25-200601:48 PM

first off lets not slam silelwen..............im glad theres finally some action on these zerker boards.

i here what your sayin bro that you want to be able to have a better dps function on raids if not tanking (am i correct on this?)

thing you got to remember is granted on single target raid targets our dps take s a small dip and then on range targets our dps goes through the crapper.

but your forgetting what we do for a group when were not tanking.............when you throw a zerker into a dps group on raids you add your group buffs berserk cry and war call......................raising your groups strength and giving berserk proc to group.......when im not tanking im usually am in the dps group and boy do my buffs make a difference to the dps.
on ranged fights you may be in the crapper as far as dps goes.......but the people in your group will be doing way more dps cuz your in there group. and hey its all about the mob goin down in the end.

Thnx. Wether you do the DPS urself, or you do it for your group, your still "dps" if ur not tanking. so shush about not doign dps. kthnx.

"I know berserkers were tanks since launch. I am talking about RAIDS, raid tanks!"

Hello, we could tank raids before LU13 just as well as we can right now, if not better. We just weren't allowed to because Guardians were so much better at it. Now since they got nerfed so hard we actually have a chance to be equal with them and that is the only reason why. We did not gain anything in the combat upgrade that actually helps us tank better then we did before. Not one thing. We lost things in fact. We lost HP, mitigation, HP buffs, avoidance, and much of our ability to keep aggro.

"We will always be a group tank!"

Not if we are nerfed down to leather we won't. Like I said most people still prefer plate tanks even for x1 heroics, not just for raids. Brawlers have a tough time finding groups because most people still don't want them to tank and although their DPS is good it's certainly not the best compared to what scouts and mages can do. The only thing they really have going for them is their awesome soloing ability. And the only way we would be able to tank at all while wearing leather is if they gave is the same uber avoidance that Brawlers currently have. But then basically all you're asking for is to have our class converted into another Brawler by having us changed from a mitigation-based tank into an avoidance-based tank. And why? What is the point of that? If I wanted to play an avoidance tank then I would have made a Brawler. I didn't make a Brawler though...I made a GD Berserker! Why? Because it's the only plate tank that has a good balance of DPS and tanking ability IMO, that's why. That is the specific reason why I chose this class to start with and I am happy with it the way it is. I like it so much in fact that I don't even hardly bother playing any alts at all. I have one alt that I play every once in a while for something different when I'm really bored but I don't like it anywhere near as much as my Zerker so I don't spend very much time on it. It happens to be a high-DPS class btw, a Wizard. And none of othe other classes that are available in this game right now appeal to me at all. So maybe now you can understand why I am so upset about the idea of having my class changed into something that I would not enjoy playing at all. I am just not interested in playing a pure DPS class. If I was then I would quit my Zerker and play my Wizard full time. And there is not one good reason in the world that any class should be totally changed into something different after 40 levels! Face it, if you don't care about tanking and only want mega DPS then you chose the wrong class. That was YOUR mistake. Now it's up to you to fix that not SOE.

"We will always be a group tank! I'm saying give us the ability to specialize into tanking or DPS which will only matter in raid situations."

There is nothing you can change about any class in this game that only effects it's abilities in raids without effecting it's abilities in soloing and single groups as well. Not really sure how you expect that to be possible.

"If you had to use a berserker for your raids before LU13 then your raid was gimped."

Only because Guardians were overpowered. Although we were better at keeping aggro than them, like I said.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 01-25-200607:03 PM

Don't forget that LU13 was also DoF and with DoF we gained alot of neat abilities like open wounds, insolent gibe, vision of madness. All great skills for tanking we never had before. Obviously Open Wounds increases dps, DPS is the #1 taunt, Vision of Madness saves my tank usually 1 time a night, it's the difference between him never dying and dying once. Insolent gibe needs no explanation, it's the best agro buff and maintaining art ingame in my opinion.

I never intended people to think I wanted us to be wearing leather, it's just the 100% truth it was thrown around between the devs but later decided against. I believe a DPS buff to our class is coming in KoS no matter what I or you think, I'm just hoping it's thru specialization and not class-wide. Obviously specializing in crushing will increase my performance with crushing damage, I just wonder what the 2 other options are.


I also wanted to add that alot of our defensive arts were updated in DoF, and won't be updated in KoS. The 10 level update when there are 14 levels of spells really makes things different each expansion. We won't be getting an update to our defensive stance, but we will be to our offensive stance. Our self berserk buff will be updated, our group berserk buff will be updated, incombat health regen will be updated, our group str buff will be updated, rampage will be updated....

Maybe the chatter I have heard about dps buffing in KoS simply is the fact that alot of our main stay offensive type buffs are being updated... That's something I didn't consider. But that still doesn't change the fact that I should of rolled a ranger, lol, but I love my berserker, I just want more DPS =)
Message Edited by Silelwen on 01-25-200607:03 PM

Also somebody spoke earlier about Taunting Defense and it's possibility of upgrade in KoS to Intimidating Defense, if this is the case I don't know what to expect, that's a 57 spell and shouldn't be updated until 71.... so if it's being updated their definitely making some changes in this next expansion from how the typical setup has went.
Message Edited by Silelwen on 01-25-200607:09 PM

"Insolent gibe needs no explanation, it's the best agro buff and maintaining art ingame in my opinion."

Yeah sure, right now it is. But before LU13 we did not even need IG at all. We could simply recast our STR buff or Anarchy to instantly pull any adds that were on someone besides us without switching targets. Now that trick doesn't work anymore and IG can only be used every 3 minutes. FYI the retimers on those buffs were nowhere near as long and they worked just as good if not better than IG since there was no max AOE limitation to the aggro they generated with attacking mobs like there is with IG which can only hit up to 8 mobs at a time and can be also resisted as well unlike the aggro that was generated from casting buffs prior to LU13 and because of the short retimers on those buffs we could actually cast them several times during one battle to help us keep the aggro of all attacking enemies regardless of what encounter they were in very easily.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 01-25-200607:25 PM

Heh, I love playing my berserker also, but do you realize what the outcry would be if berserkers had DPS of a scout, but could still tank (even if it's just for groups, like you are saying)?

What you should do is just roll a barbarian ranger or brigand alt and let that fill your need for the uber DPS.

haha.....there was an outcry by scouts................and then came down the beautifull hand called lu13

At the end of the day, the Achievement System is coming and id be willing to beat large amounts of coin that we get two paths to chose from:

1. More Defenisve
2. More Offensive

Also, no i dont believe we will contuine on the straight and narrow of being a very compareable tank to a Guardian, seeing they are going to be hands down a even better tank even again when it comes to the Achievement System because they are already a pure Defensive tanks with basically no offensive ability what so ever.
Sure your going to see us still tanking, but we are going to move back a spot even more, BUT thats upto the player on where he wants to take his Berserker. Your going to see abilitys that define us more to the Berserker side of things instead of a Tank / Mediocre DPS. Where a Pallie / Guard on the other hand will begin to shine when adding there new found abilitys from the achievement system.
People who think otherwise are delusional and just hoping that this isnt whats going to happen, but to be honest im ready for a path to chose and ill probally go a Defensive path with a hint of DPS in there too, maybe, all depends on what i can chose.
But i will say this, Guardians and Paladins are going to become better tanks if they follow a Defensive line then we will be able to become even if we follow a defensive line, simply because it doesnt matter how much ability we put into a Defensive line, we will still be a Berserker, a war machine.
I have a funny feeling alot of Berserkers are going to be seriously upset when it comes to the Achievement System choices we get compared to other classes, and no you cant use the Arch Type system as your sole reason to balance anymore because there wont be no arch type system ethier.
Message Edited by -Aonein- on 01-26-200610:34 PM

i agree with you but beserkers are SUPPOSED to be damage dealers traditionally..SoE should recognize that in my opinion.

"no i dont believe we will contuine on the straight and narrow of being a very compareable tank to a Guardian, seeing they are going to be hands down a even better tank even again when it comes to the Achievement System because they are already a pure Defensive tanks with basically no offensive ability what so ever."

That's the problem with Guardians though. Most Guardians I know are very frustrated with their lack of DPS. And the offensive nature of the Berserker aids us in our ability to tank as well as solo.

"Your going to see abilitys that define us more to the Berserker side of things instead of a Tank / Mediocre DPS. Where a Pallie / Guard on the other hand will begin to shine when adding there new found abilitys from the achievement system."

Well like you said, we should be getting both defensive and offensive options to choose from, not just all offenisve ones. Same with Guardians. And I'm willing to bet that many Guardians will be inclined to choose a lot of their more offensive options since they are always crying that their DPS sucks so bad. So then we are going to have a lot of Guardians doing that and becoming more offenisve through their AA's while a lot of Berserkers like me who are accustomed to tanking all the time are going to go with all of the defensive options that are available to us so that we can continue in that role. So in effect we may actually wind up with some Berserkers that are more defensive in nature than some Guardians in some cases. LOL

That may not seem right to the people who are really hard-set on having everyone be forced into traditional roles based solely on their class name and/or definition, but at least then we would all have at least some choice about where we are headed instead of being forced into one set path by SOE. And that would be especially upsetting to a lot of people if it was a path that was totally different from the one that we've been following all this time and we had no choice but to abandon it and then be stuck with a high level character that we used to love but don't enjoy playing at all anymore because it is totally different and not anything like what we used to have.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 01-26-200610:48 AM

Glad to see a few more people who see the writing on the wall like I do.

I have also given myself a little more time between posts this time to reflect on some of the comments here and I have come to a decision. Dropping berserkers down a couple notches on the raid tank scene won't be as dramatic as people are trying to act like. There are maybe 5-10 raid tank berserkers per server, and only 3-4 of them actually raiding tanking quite alot. What raiding guild doesn't already have a premier guardian? Why will it be so dramatic to the entire raid population if they switch to guardians as the main tank verse berserkers... I'll tell ya why, because at the end of the day everybody can still raid and it really doesn't affect as many people as some will suggest. No matter what they do to us, unless it were something extremely drastic like the leather issue which is no longer in consideration at all, the people who run instances daily and just group and not raid will not notice a stealth raid tank nerf to their class. Hell they could simply allow guardians to get an extra 20% hp which would only really matter on raids if they wanted to screw berserkers over... But my notes in closing are I think we will be made into more of a DPS in upcoming changes, but berserkers will still be awesome tanks, it's just Guardian's rightful role is to be the tank, and if you disagree with that then that's your opinion but if they popped a poll in the game today, at least 75-90% of the people would vote Guardians should be the best tank ingame.

I'm totally agree, very good post IMO.

"Glad to see a few more people who see the writing on the wall like I do."

I think you are only seeing what you want to see and then trying to pass it off as truth in hopes that will somehow make it truth when it's really just a bunch of bullcrap that you made up yourself. Once again there has been no indication whatsoever of any new combat or class revamp with this next expansion that's due out next month.

"Dropping berserkers down a couple notches on the raid tank scene won't be as dramatic as people are trying to act like."

Maybe not to you since you are not a Berserker that tanks raids or even wants to be able to tank raids at all. What about those of us who do?

"There are maybe 5-10 raid tank berserkers per server, and only 3-4 of them actually raiding tanking quite alot."

And they don't matter at all? Just screw them you say? Just so you can have a little bit more DPS? Who do you think you are?

"What raiding guild doesn't already have a premier guardian?"

It doesn't matter if they have one or not. The point is If they have a Berserker doing it instead and enjoying then it leave him be. He is doing what he was made to do. It's not his fault that some people like yourself chose the wrong class because they liked the name and didn't bother to take a look at any of the actual abilites of that class before they rolled one.

"Why will it be so dramatic to the entire raid population if they switch to guardians as the main tank verse berserkers..."

Because then the Berserkers that love being a raid MT and are not happy being a pure DPS class will be screwed over and be forced to reroll and start all over as a Guardian if they want to continue doing what they want in this game. People that have already spent several months building up their characters to fulfill that role. And that is not right.

"I'll tell ya why, because at the end of the day everybody can still raid and it really doesn't affect as many people as some will suggest."

Just because they can still raid doesn't mean anything. If they are not doing what they want to in the raid then they are not going to have fun raiding. Then there is no point to it for them.

"berserkers will still be awesome tanks, it's just Guardian's rightful role is to be the tank, and if you disagree with that then that's your opinion"

Actually I do in fact disagree with that very much and it's not just my opinion either...it's also SOE's opinion. They've already stated that Guardians are not supposed to be the only viable raid tank in the game and they never were supposed to be in the first place. The only reason they were before LU13 is because they were bugged. Like I keep telling you. That is exactly what they said. And that was the whole point of the changes in LU13 regarding fighter classes. They wanted all fighters to have an equal chance at tanking raids. Like it or not, that is what they said and that is what they did. That's why even Monks and Bruisers can tank raids now if they really want to. They don't want there to be only one class in the game just for that purpose. And neither do most people who play the game. People like choices. So if you want to tank raids now you actually have a choice of different classes to pick from that can all do it equall well, you don't HAVE to be a Guardian anymore. And that's a good thing because not everyone who wants to tank wants to be a Guardian. Why should everyone be forced to use a Guardian as their raid MT all the time? That makes no sense. There are 6 different healer classes in the game that can all be used for the same purpose, more or less. Why should there only be one true tank?

Also, there is something else you are totally forgetting about. The fact that being an uber raid tank also makes you a really uber group tank by default. There is no way around that. You can't have a class that's uber at tanking raids and gimped at tanking for single groups. It's just not possible. The two go hand in hand. Before LU13 Berserkers could tank raids just fine they just couldn't do it as well as Guardians. So they were hardly even chosen for that. And they also could tank groups just find but guess what? Any time there was a Guardian in the group he was always chosen as the MT before the Berserker. In single groups I'm telling you. It wasn't right. That's why they fixed it. It wasn't just for raids. But now you are trying to get them to change it back just so you can get a little higher on the stupid DPS parser in your raids. Well you can take that parser and shove it. I am happy with the amount of DPS that I currently have and I am not willing to give up one ounce of my tanking ability just to have tad more DPS. I prefer having more of a balance between the two abilities like we have right now. I don't want to play a lopsided class. If that was the case then I wouldn't have chosen this class. I wanted a very strong character that could still dish out punishment as well as take it. And that's exactly what I got and I am very happy with it. So leave it alone.

Another thing you have to consider is that any class that has any kind of tanking ability whatosever is never going to be capable of getting to the top of the DPS parser. At least not when there are any Sorcs and Preds in the group at all. You might as well get over it. What you are asking for is for us to lose the ability to tank raids altogether just so we can get a tad more DPS but still be capable of tanking for groups. Why? So then we will still not be top DPS and then we won't even be top tanks anymore. Nice one.

All you really want is for us to become a Brawler.

Maybe through the new AA system in the expansion you can have what you want and I can have what I want. But if so I still think that's going to cause a lot of confusion since in that case there's going to be a huge difference in abilites between different people of the same class. Not sure I agree with that idea.

In any case I still think you should have just rolled a Bruiser instead of a Berserker. Then you would have pretty much exactly what you want and you wouldn't be here bugging them to change our class just to suite yourself.

"if they popped a poll in the game today, at least 75-90% of the people would vote Guardians should be the best tank ingame."

I seriously doubt that. Most non-Guardian fighters in the game were really sick and tired of always being considered sub-par to Guardians. I really believe that most fighters, especially plate fighters, wanted an equal chance at being able to tank anything in the game, especially Berserkers. Well now we have that. And I really doubt they are going to change it back to the way it was before. That would be a pretty dumb idea.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 01-27-200611:34 AM