Why I think RoK factioning is basically unfair to pure crafters.

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:

I could be wrong .. but I believe Domino is referring to any FUTURE Expansions that have a similar set up for Crafting.
Going back and changing the RoK Crafting Factions to be seperate entities would take way more time and effort and .. yes .. if they just split them (added a new actual crafting faction for Riliss, Danak & Bathezid) everyone would be pissed. Crafters would have to grind back up factions & so would hybrids. The only people that would enjoy it would be the people who started fresh from that change. Unless, Domino created a "scribe" type NPC situation that allowed the Crafter/Adv to dedicate their previously earned faction to either the Adventure Faction or the Crafting Faction .. and it still would be a big giant mess!
So, like I have said before .. I look at this RoK Crafting situation as Domino's Learning Curve. She knows now that any other expansion that has this type of Crafter rewards will NEED it's own faction. Which is no different from the Home city Factions, really. Crafter Faction and Adventurer Faction have always been seperated. This was an experiment. It didn't work as well as hoped. We deal. Or we complain .. either or ..
A nice bump in Faction earned per Crafting Writ in RoK wouldn't be turned down, though, Domino .. say .. 1,000k faction per writ? Cuts it down a bit more and makes it less of a headache to do the math calculations on how many more writs are left ... *laugh*

Sidori@Crushbone wrote:

I don't see how it is punishment, simply a matter of choice.
Example: a new land is found, do you log in your crafter and discover the new reciepes, or log in your adventure and discover the land?
You spend time to get to 80 crafting
You spend time to get to 80 adventuring
Your choice determines which faction you have. But Notice the bottom of my post and 80 crafter will be able to gain faction with crafting faction quicker by doing more complex writs. Example would be a writ worth 2-5k faction.

Sidori@Crushbone wrote:

I agree with Sidori. I have an 80 wizard who is an 80 Carpenter. I chose to play the entire game. There should not be a faction penalty to participating in all facets of this game.

Quda wrote:

Here is the question of the day:

Why cant an 80 Adventurer and an 80 Tradeskiller gain faction just as quick/slow as each other? Why must one be slower then the other.. causing such a roar over the whole system?

Putting in TWICE as much work for soemone who chose to play both aspects of the game just because tradeskillers are unhappy about how slow their faction goes in comparison to adventurers is just so extremely unfair and lame.

Thanks Quda for picking up on my typo I did indeed mean 80 adv 80 craft

Sidori@Crushbone wrote:

Interesting, I will assume you ment 80 adventure, and 80 craft.
Idea:
How about a craft writ that includes both aspects?
Update Idea:
Like my previous Idea on writs, the further in level, the more advanced your writs become, increasing faction amounts.
But also:
Add in crafting writs that will benefit both an adventure and crafter. Example: Necklace of Sabertooth teeth. Where you have to kill sabertooths to get the ingredient, and then go back and craft the necklace. Since this is a double sided writ, double the amount of faction.
This would benefit both aspects of the game.
1. A pure crafter would be able to speed up his faction by increasing his level
2. A adventure/crafter would be able to get faction, adventure xp, and tradeskill.

DominoDev wrote:

How about something simple? Like adding in a harvesting quest with double the amount of faction (1500 pts) as an option every few writs? That way pure crafters have the choice of slogging through just writs (if they have enough materials) or facing danger and death to get a quest done.

OOPS yes I meant 80 adventurer / 80 crafter sorry - will edit the post

Qandor wrote:

Basically I think your full of it, and really if your complaining just quit the game this is obviously not for you. ALso PLEASE stop insulting folks saying the adventure doing absolutly nothing, they actually had to not only level their crafting but also level their level and also risk (although it being virtual) life to get said faction and rewards unlike a crafter just sitting griding writs.
NOW that was said i can give real points that i "thought" you would actually bring up instead of whineing ohh the adventurer this and the adventurer that.
a) There should be like with city writs the way to get to max faction (50k) this should not stop at 30k.
b) IMO i don't think these factions should start off so negative, this is obviously personal opinion. Maybe a "potiential" solution would be to have the crafting writs give bigger chunks then they do. ATM they give 750 faction which is a nice and bigger faction hit then city writs. Just an idea
c) IMO They should have seporated out the factions for crafting. Although to be fair frankly there would be folks whineing then too. Can't please everyone all of the time.

KnightOfTheWord wrote:

That sort of thing, or delivery quests, is exactly what I'd like to see as a mitigation of the current setup. Ry'Zilk<->Bathezid<-> Sel'Nok and Danak<->Riliss<->Jinisk would seem to be perfect fits for supply delivery runs; I don't know whether a Villagers<->Droga<->Skleross run would be ideal, but there are a lot of different factions who could, potentially, have interlinked trading agreements necessitating (say) stops in 3 or 4 different zones, carrying the risk of travel and the time invested, and yielding commensurate levels of faction.

Sidori@Crushbone wrote:

It's not a punishment to you. You have one play style, others have their own. And those arguing they are more deserving because they have both high level adventurers and tradeskillers are forgetting the fact the original poster has 2 high level adventurers as well.

Tradeskilling as it's currently implemented is very much intended to be its own entity. I've said it before and I'll say it again: One of my favorite aspects of Everquest II and what makes it stand above other MMO's is that you CAN make an enjoyable game out of doing stuff besides adventuring.

I don't agree with the OP that high level adventurers have done nothing to earn the rewards/factions. However; the boring writ grind for tradeskillers is anything but enjoyable and isn't fair as it's currently implemented.

I also don't buy the risk -vs- reward argument. It's not that much of a risk to do the faction quests on an adventurer. You may die a couple times but by the time you're done you will have earned back any EXP debt you might have incurred and then some. You will also earn cash and new gear. You will have earned a LOT more than just faction. Tradeskillers get only the faction and half the exp of normal writs. A pure tradeskiller will even lose money on the writs if they can't harvest their own materials.

I'm happy to see that once again Domino listens and this will be looked at in the future. Kudos.

Jehannum wrote:

Even just making the current "FedEx" quests in Kunark available to crafters would be a boon.

I don't have a high level crafter with lower then level 70 adventure at this time, so I don't know if those delivery quests I've done on the basis of my adventure levels are available to the crafter or not. Some might have been delivery after having killed stuff, though.

But.. I agree with the others that adding in some additional quests for harvesting and/or deliveries -after- a certain number of tradeskill writs have been done (and still with the same faction cap to offer as the writs) would be a great solution. (and could be added in hopefully sooner than later)

For those having trouble understanding my point, I'll refer once again to my own situation. Personally, I would have no intention of grinding 280 writs to get 6 recipes. Hadn't planned to do it and wouldn't do it. However, since I have two of those crafters also as level 80 adventurers, who used the RoK adventuring questlines to attain level 80 adventure with good rewards along the way, I now in addition to all the cash and equipment rewards I received get those faction recipes free and clear for no aditional effort. I will now be competing in the market place with crafters who have done those 280 writs and I have expended zero effort to have that right.
It's not a matter of a different system punishing adventures. It is a matter of adventure/crafters not getting a free ride just because they happen to be both which is what we have now. For those of us who have done both, we worked for those 80 adventure levels and we worked for those 80 crafting levels. Doing only one did not give us both and working on one now should not give us the rewards for both either.

Kiandra@Antonia Bayle wrote:

You are forgetting the fact that a player can go purchase everything they need to tradeskill with, and then just sit there mashing buttons (very little btw with the new system, a monkey can do it as you can afk most of the time and get pristine).

Yet adventurers dont get any short cuts.. nothing to *buy* to make it easier.. they have to go out and run around these zones and do the quests and yes there is more risk there as deaths can occur making for some low-high repair bills depending on number of deaths.

Not all of us enjoy having to grind out quests for faction.. we do it because its what we need to do in order to obtain the faction.
But the fact of the matter is, even though there is more difficulty and no short cuts to take.. the # of quests adventurers need to do to obtain x amount of faction is less then the # of writs crafters need to do in order to obtain the same x amount of faction.

Thus is why crafters feel its harder to do.. NOT because its *actually* harder to do, as crafting is easy.. but because of the HUGE [I cannot control my vocabulary] time sink.
Less actual time goes into the adventuring faction gain.. then the time it takes for crafters to obtain theirs.

I think this is what I am reading from the posts anyhow.. someone can correct me if I am wrong.

Edit to add: Did I just change my point of view with this post?

I am starting to confuse myself! LOL

Sidori@Crushbone wrote:

hehe ..

Let just say this ..

Adventure method - Gaining faction is done without it being the focus of what you are doing. You get faction just by following one of the standard methods of leveling and getting gear / rewards. Faction is a bonus that most people really don't care about anyway.

TradeSkill method - You are already lvl 80 by this point and have NO REASON other than gaining faction to be doing this action! If you are buying raws you are most likely loosing money on each writ (3g over fuel?).


This is the problem .. There is no reason to be doing the tradeskill writs aside from to gain faction. This is why it seems like so much grind. Adventuring you are doing the same things you normally would do through the course of leveling. At least the Tradeskill society factions have other reasons (reward XP and SP) to grind them. Most classes City TS writs are the fastest way to level and are therefore natural progression that people follow through the game anyway (not always the case).

Qandor wrote:

Yes, and let's leave out the fact that the perosn had to level their crafter as well as their adventurer to be able to reap this easy-faction benefit. Ignore that completely, because it's obviously irrelevant...
Adventurers don't get the recipes unless they level a crafter, so it's fine that they get that faction relatively easily. If you want to be able to get the recipes easier, then level your adventuring side.

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:

Jesdyr - you obviously dont do tradeskill writs so let me explain how they work. On a rush order for example my sage gets a timed event (8 mins I think) to make 6 spells items (2 items x 3 different recipes). Each recipe takes 5 fuel to make (5g as the fuel is 1g each in T8). Once I make the 2 items from recipe 1 I get a quest ding and a quest reward for 10g (the reimbursement for fuel). Once I make all 6 items I have collected 30g as rewards to cover the fuel cost.

I still get to turn in the quest so I run upstairs and turn in the quest. Now I get +150 faction with the tradeskill society (if you are doing these in the city) / about 13,000 status points AND about 13g for doing the writ.

Now, you are already getting your fuel paid for and 13g at completion for less than 8 minutes work. Takes me about 6.5 minutes to do these with the running around, searching through the book for the recipe etc. I know people can do them faster.

You are only making 6 recipes for the rush orders and you have 13g with which to purchase those materials. The mined raw products on our server are all 1cp each on the broker, wood/hides tend to be about 5s and roots flux around 5-8s. In buying the materials for most of my crafters I spend average 2g per writ (give or take) which still leaves me about 11g per writ. You can easily do 6 writs per hour and as many as 13 if your quick. How someone can lose money doing writs is beyond me.

This explanation kinda negates your follow up statement. The largest reasons for doing writs once you hit 80 are (1) COIN (2) Guild Status Points if you belong to a guild and you arent guild level 80 yet.

And doing adventure writs is not something you are doing in the normal course of adventure play. At T8 you are going to Kylong Plains to get writs for mobs in JW and KJ. The faction crafting groups are at least in the same zone but still, it is a pretty conscious decision to do writs whether you are doing crafting ones or adventuring ones.

TheLopper wrote:

Dont try to bring logic into this, it never works.

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:

Umm .. What are you talking about ?

This is about RoK factions NOT city factions.

I have 2 40k+, a 32k+ and a 15k+ Tradeskill society characters .. I have done MANY rushorders. Those are not the writs I am talking about or what this entire post is about. You will hit 40k faction before you hit lvl 80 if you grind the whole way on rushorders.

Adventurers Do not need to writ to get faction with the RoK factions. This is gain through normal quests. Yes there are some Adventure repeatable quests as well but only bathezid would be a problem in this case and even then the difference is small.

eRijacki wrote:

I have a high level adventure and crafter and I also have a low level toon who is now a master crafter with epic and I belive that my higher level adventure/crafter has had the easier path as far as faction. I belive that the amount of time I spend doing faction adventure quest for faction took me far less time to go harvest and then craft to get my lower toon/crafter up in faction enough to do her epic. The amount of time it took doing the crafting grind I could have gone out and done 3-4 faction quests with my adventure and got more faction ( it seemed) than what my crafter got doing crafting writs. I am also adding in the harvesting time too.

They started off right with some quests that only high level crafters could do, and gain faction. If they could, next time, add a few more like Rijacki has writen about would be great. Mix it up. Give some other ways for crafters who are low level to gain faction.

as it stand now, I just can't see working up my low level toon/high crafter faction that is going to start out at -30,000 or something to +40,000 when my adventure/crafter can run though and at least start out at a higher faction with quests then pick up the rest with crafting if need be.

I am just glad they have looked at this thread and will be taking this issue into account next go around.

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:

Sorry, shouldn't have used those factions as an example, was thinking about another very similar thread at the moment.

There are only 3 factions in Rok though for crafters - Bathezids, Rilliss and Danak. Riliss and Danak have enough adventure quests to max ally faction on them but quite honestly they take the same amount of time as grinding out the writs by crafting. Bathezids you cant max on adventuring, you hit the ceiling around 25K, give or take a couple of thousand. Then you get the +25 per kill to whack fishmen. At this point, crafters FTW with +750 for a 9 minute writ.

And maybe my memory is failing but in doing the writs for bathezids I know I got my fuel cost back and thought I got coin at the end of that one too, will have to do a few tonight and refresh my own memory I suppose.