I started playing EQ1 since week one of release. I played for approx. 4 years and ended up in a pretty good raid guild on drinal (cats in hats, I miss you guys btw) blah blah youv'e read enough of these statements before. Anyway, when I put down EQ1 I decided I wouldn't play again, but welp that ol' crack kept callin' so I picked up EQ2, some friends were playing etc, etc. I rolled up my first character, a troll, and decided to make him a monk. This is where I fell for the trap. I played EQ2 like I was still in EQ 1. I thought I would be doing all the pulling, using Feign death, really being in the action etc etc which is what I missed in EQ1, as I was a support class. I just assumed that EQ2 was going to be an extension of EQ1 so I had made a good decision. WROOOONNNG! All classes can pull equally well. Then, as I trolled the boards, I noticed this Gage guy spouting off about how we where tanks, and I am like jeez what a newb, this guy must have never played EQ1, again, the second trap. Then, I did my homework, and looked at some of the things SOE promised and what Gage is saying. All I can say is I am converted. I am not a EQ1 monk, and I never will be that cool pulling, FDing man that's in all the action. But, what Gage has convinced me of is that we are Tanks. He has also convinced me that we should be held level to other tanks, but by different ways. Furthermore, I am amused by the European feeling that "TANK" means guy with big heavy, burdened armor that is supposed to be the toughest. Some may argue that the eastern warrior may have shown that plate wearer a thing or 2. In summary, I have fell for the "EQ2 should be like EQ1" trap. I am glad I read some of Gage's posts to see otherwise. I am a tank, and I wanna be able to tank as well as another tank class, period. Tank > DPS Ibreaka Ufaca level 34 Troll Monk Oasis Server P.S. and to the guys that say "read the description and you'll know that guardians are the best defense class" I have this as a counter: during warrior training the master said something to the affect, some warriors fight in a way that "they are never hit". I guess that means since I read that I should expect never to be hit.
Well written post. But with the logic off "All tank class should all be able to tank equally as well logic," all tanks would have to do the same damage to be *balanced* The extra damage we do compared to others on the fighter tree, we hinder in tanking ability.
Thats a misconception. I would imagine it stems from the EQ1 mentality. As others have said, I feel our DPS is for lack of defense and taunts, not outright tanking ability. I mean hell we give up HP, mitigation, defense and for what? A slight edge in DPS and evasion? Doesn't seem fair to me. To the OP, I'm glad that some things I said and linked changed your vision of the class, and I hope you enjoy tanking
At level 50, monks and bruisers put out quite a significant difference in DPS compaired to the other four tanks. This is of course, assuming that all 6 classes are using spells of the same skill level and are using weapons of the same damage levels.
It is slight. So that comment just proves your inexperience. I've been outdamaged on the gulch drakota by a berserker (every single time but once), a SK (three or four times) and I've never grouped with a bruiser but they would regardless. I and others have seen guardians routinely parse over 100 DPS if they try. So anyone who thinks we have some huge DPS advantage is sadly mistaken. The DPS difference is no way close to the same as the tanking differences.
As a paladin I don't really get the chance to see how monks in my group tank. Once in RE when I was lagging really bad I asked the monk to back up tank for me. He did great on the blue cons but on the white and yellow stuff the healer could barely keep up with the heals. I wouldn't say he spoke for every monk out there but he's about the only example I"ve yet seen. While everyone is entitled to their oppinion I believe that all fighters shouldn't be able to tank equally. I knew when I made my paladin that I would never be chosen over a guardian of the same level as me otherwise there would be little point in subclasses. I'm ok with sacrificing my tanking abillity to be able to cast spells and heal myself.
Lol every post here is a mistake to Gage. Damm my friends parser mistakenly making me #1 is dps on may occassion with many different groups. Its not Gage certified, so its gotta be wrong.
Maybe it's my lunging mongoose master 1 and a few other adept 3s, along with my rare crafted quarter staffs/hierophant's crook, or my provisioning/invoker robe which lets me comfortable spam attacks without worrying about power which is keeping me behind alot of other fighters. Sure, I outdamage them significantly when they are tanking, but they out damage me just as significantly when I'm the tank.
I have tons of parses. I read tons of threads. I talk to lots of people. I can assure you that any DPS advantage we hold over other fighters is "slight". I don't care if you agree or not. Maybe instead of relying on your friends parser, you should use your own? Besides, I can tell your experiences grouping with other offtank fighters are limited, because a zerker or a bruiser in your group would regularly outdamage you. A well played SK wouldn't have much trouble either. Why would I lie? I never said we can not outdamage other fighters and/or guardians. We can and do. I am talking about the difference in damage done throughout various encounters. The way people post you would assume that monks do 250dps and guardians do 5dps. It isn't anything like that. Also, the point I was trying to make is, the difference in damage done between fighters is not representative of the same differences in tanking between the classes.
I wonder sometimes... to those non-brawlers that "let us" tank for them... are they pounding the offtank buff constantly like we are? Or is it ignored in favor of paying attention to other things. Because, quite frankly... it's like saying "Hey, I can tank great!" with the Brawler buffing the crap outta you and debuffing the mob... and then sitting there watching the Brawler get owned without helping and saying "Man, he sucks against higher level things!". Just saying.. because it seems every group I'm in, the only offtanks that ever cast that intervene-looking buff are monks and bruisers. I had a pally in the group offtanking, and never saw a single buff except the occasional heal or ward, or their group buff. Then again, this was the same pally that didn't use a single taunt when they were tanking, leaving uncompleted HO after another that I had set up for them. Sometimes it's just bad or naive players, not the class.
I would have to agree (im sure most would) that is the PLAYER behind the character that makes a good tank. I have been in groups with every class, other monks included. With other higher level monks I would assume to see the usual monk group buffs right off.. but alas, some monks either dont bother, or dont realise the benifits of our group buff. When I get in a group first thing I cast the Intervene line on the healer, regardless if I am tanking or not. If I am not tanking, I dont taunt and refrain from recasting a group buff because I'll get aggro. Why? Is it the "amazing DPS" we have or the fact that some tanks simply attack taunt once or twice and call it a day until someone else gets aggro.. THEN they get mad at the person who got the aggro. As for super DPS abilities.. I dont see it. YES we may kick out a few extra DPS in an overall fight, BUT is it because we naturally can, OR is it because we dont use power and time with taunts and can thus kick out a couple more high damage skills? Chandalen 41 Monk
I have tons of parses. I read tons of threads. I talk to lots of people. I can assure you that any DPS advantage we hold over other fighters is "slight". I don't care if you agree or not. Thats what makes it fun, you like to disagree with everyone. Even a long time ago when i said i thought other tanks might have a slight advantage over us(tanking). Of course you completely disagreed with me (dont make get the link out). Now your saying you want monks to be on par with other tanks. Hehe.... at least you provide me with humor. Message Edited by JojoTheDog on 03-18-2005 04:42 AM
Gage said the following That is a misconception. I would imagine it stems form the EQ1 mentality Gage also said It is slight. So that comment just proves your inexperience. Gage also said I have tons of parses. I read tons of threads. I talk to lots of people. I can assure you that any DPS advantage we hold over other fighters is "slight". I don't care if you agree or not. Do you realize just how condescending you are? I mean, people argue with you just to because of your "mightier than thou" attitude. You confuse obstinance for perseverence, insults for reasoning, and rhetoric for logic. Just because you are passive aggressive with your condescending insults does not make you ANY LESS INSULTING! I hate listening to you! You are like the Howard Stearn of the Monk thread. Once in a while you say something worth listening to, but then you speckle your comments with "I know better, you know poo!" in a very POLITICALLY CORRECT FASHION. That is, you imply your "jackallations" rather than come right out and let fire. It is so DISTRACTING from what you say, How can anyone NOT be biased against what you have to say?
lol- mousse - and that just this thread alone... im sure we could find a ton of crap in the 2400+ post of his lol...thats funny. now here comes his post about how hes not condescending but you are still poo - and that oh - by the way - he doesnt care how you feel about him = and that oh yeah - you are still wrong by the way... sound about right?
Personally, I think it would be hard to blame a guy that becomes short or sound condesending when they try to defend thier opinion for 500+ posts in one thread, 500+ posts in another thread, 500+ posts in another thread, etc...but thats just my thoughts I guess... My opinion on this would be that out of all the posts regarding this issue, there are only a handfull that are acutally a 'discussion' on the topic...95% of them are I said this...reply...no I said this...no you're wrong...no you're wrong...Moorgard said this...the manual says this...question in big bold yellow letters...quote with 2 words highlighted out of 3 paragraphs... If there was actual discussion or exchange of ideas I think everyone on both sides of this debate would get along better and it wouldn't be such a cat fight, or half elf fight, or lizard fight It is possible to have a discussion where no one is conviced that the other side is right...but that would lead to more a middle ground where both sides could survive. Things that I think we most all can agree on: 1) 1-50 we seem to be pretty balanced; end game seems to be what most of the discussion is focused on now 2) per Moorgard's post, damage of fighters is being looked at vs the scout classes, the result of which could either be a fighter nerf or a scout fluff, if an adjustment is determined to be needed 3) Anything else? Another thing that could solve this whole issue would be if SOE would give their opinion on the current balance of the archtype system itself, and if their opinion on the roles of the subclasses within the archtype has changed since beta or launch or whenever the quote from Moorgard is from. A lot of Gage's side of this discussion stems from what SOE originally told us. If SOE has changed thier vision, they need to tell us.
Gage has right to be condescending when he's correct in the things he had said and he has seen enough at level 50. I've seen the same things and ran several different parsers with my lvl 50 Templar. The DPS for most tanks are not that far off from one another. The common misconception is that guardian DPS is sooooo low compared to Monks. That's simply not true at the highest levels of the game. Of course, guardians want to promote that misconception in order to justify themselves as *the* raid tanks in the game. Seriously though, no one is forcing anyone to do something they don't want to do. If some monks want to play second fiddle, that's fine. If some monks want to main tank, that's fine too and that's their business, not anyone else's. Message Edited by EnderMX on 03-18-2005 08:44 AM
Is it true that Zerkers out DPS us in all instances? I was under the impression that Zerkers will out DPS us if they are fighting 3+ mobs because there are abilities are mostly group AE while we are mostly single target DPS. In reguards to Gage, I feel he has alot of experiance in playing our class and he always relays his oppinions in an intellegent systematic way. There has been more than one occation where I may not have had a simular oppinion but after reading his post I can see where he is coming from and it just might change my thinking. Yenyang Angrydragon 37 Ogre Monk Kithicore
