Why don't people care anymore?

Discussion in 'General Gameplay Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-ericsweeney, Jan 12, 2011.

  1. ARCHIVED-Dasein Guest

    Onorem wrote:
    You have as much of a voice as any other player. You can send feedback to the devs, post in these forums and others, writ a blog about what you think an MMO should involve and so on. If you do not like one game, you are free to move to another - you are not locked into some contract with SOE like you are with a cell phone. What more of a voice do you think you are entitled to?
  2. ARCHIVED-Onorem Guest

    Dasein wrote:
    I understand that SOE will do what they think is best. My point is aimed at those on these forums that tell people that have complaints to shut up and go somewhere else if they don't like it. Despite what I consider to be its faults, this game is better than any other that I've tried. (I really wish Rift would've been mildly interesting.)
    I'm going to continue to play, and I'm going to continue to voice my opinion when I see changes I don't like. You're free to move to another game's forums if you don't want to see it.
  3. ARCHIVED-Darthor Guest

    Andok wrote:
    The margin of error is as small as it can be with the data available. That is the answer. Without SOE's numbers we "cannot" know what that margin of error - 0% or 500% it is an unknown but it is the only data avialable to us. Also under QR, you'll also recognize that it is a corporation's behavior to induce numbers in threads like that in which are favorable to them (they tend to make a situation look better than what it really is for PR). This I have not mentioned yet because it is pure theory however when looking at the front and back of the books they (in most cases) add up.
    Dasein wrote:
    Ok, well here it comes down to social observations. Anyone playing during this time (*raises hand*) can tell you that the servers (at least 3 that I know of which were Bertox, FV, and Zek) went from fighting for camps, waiting on camps, and all out pvping for camps to walking in those same contested and populated zones and it almost being as erie as watching tumble weed bounce from street corner to street corner. There is no exagguration there - in fact there were 47 members in my own guild and in ONE DAY (day of SC release) that noted in the guild forums they were quitting the game and not to expect them in any future raids (this is a huge thing being this action reset their DKP to 0).
    The evidence is as strong as it can get without having the exact dates and numbers from SOE, this is obvious. More specifically it is a fainomeno alliloikhias ton sinallagon (that is the domino effect). Now there is an alternate possible senerio which is just as bad; and that is, based from the observations, that 40%+ of the playerbase simply lost intrest in playing but still kept their subscriptions active. If this is the case and combining this data with the "general" ranks in the forums under the SC discussion then the impact is far greater than estimated - in fact it would be a massive 70-80% chunk. This is speculative and the facts thereof this theory is weak -- that I will agree.
    There may very well be ommissions, in that case anyone is more than welcome to describe and include them including the admins which has not yet happened.
    What this boils down to is that in EQ1 within a few hours of SC being released there was an all out out-rage among the community. This was MASSIVE headline news for about a week (the outrage in EQ1). After this, the community in the forums over the course of a few weeks saw a decline like never before, more to the nature of mass exudos not a normal trickling decline as before.
    Dasein wrote:
    I never said that would happen here - it didn't in fact; however the OP wanted to know what it was that was in which was contributing to the player base's loss of intrest in the game and I told them this was a major contributing factor using EQ1 as a prime example of how (SOCIALLY) this works. Andok took it to another level trying to teather one to the other which is impossible to do, likewise EQ1 is a great example of a community loosing intrest in the game and their characters over drastically trivialized accomplishments and a system that was totally changed from what the producers promised:
    "LON is not some slippery slope to RMT" ~ Smedly
    Eisrael wrote:
    This helps my arguement, not hurts EQ1 is almost a 12 year old game, beta was 1999, it is currently 2011 and STILL EQ1 has a larger community (speculative per the concurrent community on the EQ1 forums which do not have "general" accounts) than EQ2 even on top of EQ2 being F2P and on top of EQ1 loosing massive amounts of players due to SC and other drastic changes over the years (which there was not one as great as SC; POP would be the only comparison).
    I say it helps because that alone should be a big eye-opener to those not familiar with EQ1's history, and current events
    There is something you may need to know about EQ1 and some of the additional factors that lead to the player-base to performing this mass exudos together. First of all, it was promised several times when the Pro-RMT orgs were pushing these types systems that EQ1 would never see a RMT system. In fact when LON came out there was a really steep drop in the player base then, enough that Smed came out in the EQ1 forums and promised (and reassured the community) that LON wasn't a stepping block to RMT - when in fact the estimated dev time that it took to put into SC they started development of the SC system during about the time of the release of LON. This infuriated a large portion of the player base, not only was their game and its leveling system trivialized by money but they were also told a bold-face lie. It all stems from SC or RMT to be more specific though.
    As far as me barrating others that use it? That I do not. I care less if you use it - its your choice and your fiscal mismanagement lol not mine . I personally refuse to participate in it but you need to understand that people, friends, prospective group and guild mates HAVE INDEED LEFT THE GAME because of this same system you so love, one would be naive to think otherwise. What you need to ask yourself, which is more important? Entitlement or those friends? But guessing from your self-deserving nature I would say from your utter lack of compassion for those great and legendary players that have left EQ1 (and possibly EQ2) because of this very issue would almost force you to choose your dear entitlements over a friend any day of the week.
    You are right about one thing, many other MMO's picked up on the RMT system with the exception of one which has some of the weakest content of all MMO's. However here is the diffrence, most of the MMO's that were sub based completely converted to the F2P model allowing their old subscribers to have the same access level to the game (like in DND online). Some created seperate versions of the game -- one for subs the other for RMT/Microtransactions (like WOW [iirc] and LOTR) EQ1 and EQ2 is STILL the only MMO out there that both requires a subscription and requires RMT for classes and potions (I totally get the fluff stuff, that is fine, though never should that fluff look 10x better than any graphic in game and always SOE should be constantly trying to improve items in-game instead of neglecting them in order to add more fluff like the S3.0 problem).
    Edit: Dear lord I can't spell
  4. ARCHIVED-Andok Guest

    Lalen@Everfrost wrote:
    There you go - that wasn't so difficult to admit, was it? In other words, your calculation of 40% with no know margin of error is, in more simple terms, a guess.
  5. ARCHIVED-Darthor Guest

    Andok wrote:
    So then you agree that the FDA trials are also a guess? Elections are also a guess? Without REQUIRING SOE to turn over their numbers or REQUIRING everyone to participate in a FDA trial or election, it is just that, a guess. The census is the most accurate polling system in the world and again being you don't have to let the guys in your house it is yet still a guess. Thats my point, and that is the entire foundation of QR However a "guess" it may be, it is applied to every aspect of our lives from medical technology to the entire way a government works to even how the legal system works (people are convicted for far less every day -- that is scary )
    Allow me to explain how this is a more conclusive way of looking at things than a mere online-poll.
    1) Demographics - The only demographic you're looking for in a poll about a game is the people that actually play the game. In this case you are targeting the proper demographics... People are wealthy enough to have an internet connection, People have access to the forums, and everyone has access to the game. Now where this can flaw and actually make my numbers look far smaller is those that canceled their accounts without saying anything later on (and being unable to post) This is why I refrenced QR and also made it clear that my numbers should be actually a underestimate of the actual people that left. Giving SOE the bennifit of the doubt with that system seems to be the best and most fair option.
    2) Selection - There was no selection. The poll wasn't pre-loaded because it was a simple "on/off" type data collection; either they quit or they didn't.
    With that said, it makes the poll one of the most accurate you can find without ever being given any markers or bench-marks by SOE.
    As far as me being against SC, again I'm not against anyone using it, I'm against SOE plopping it up there and then totally neglecting everything else like the 3.0 shader models which are now completely broken in most zones because of the Freeblood race. This is where it is fustrating - They add SC items that are not fluff, it breaks the rest of the game, and they simply ignore that it happened. If SOE were more inclined to fix current graphical bugs than rushing to release a new SC item for everyone to buy, I would be much more accepting of the system. Until that happens I don't fault anyone whom uses it, but I fault SOE for not having a spine and lying to the community on countless occasions.
  6. ARCHIVED-Dasein Guest

    Lalen@Everfrost wrote:
    Actually, one can calculate margin of error based solely on the sample size, - if you've got a sample size of 1000, you'll have a margin of error of about 3% with a 95% CI, regardless of the total population (assuming the sample size < 5% of the total population).
    The question is, what is the total sample size used, not merely the number which cancelled? That is, what percentage of those sampled (exposed to the poll) answerd 'cancel' and which ansered 'not cancel'? Without knowing the total sample size, we cannot know the percentage of that sample that cancelled, nor can we calculate the Marging of Error.
  7. ARCHIVED-Rijacki Guest

    Lalen@Everfrost wrote:
    You completely an utterly missed the point Eisrael was making. It is an OLD game and a lot of people have moved on from it for an abundance of reasons. I myself have played EQ1 and occassionally return to it from time to time now (SA account). In fact my last several month foray into EQ1, when I was playing it more than EQ2, was LONG after SC had been a part of the games. I didn't leave because of SC when I stopped playing the first time (though it was, in part, because of the prevalence of 3rd party RMT) and my lack of heavy playing there right now has nothing to do with SC, more to do with finding a greater interest in other things to do (like EQ2 again, DCUO, etc).
    If you look at other things occuring during the time of the exodus you attribute solely to SC, you'd likely find it was also when other games where launching and/or people's lives were changing. Yes, SOME players have quit from all of the SOE games because of the addition of the Marketplace (and others have stayed or started playing because of it), but MORE have left because they wanted to play WoW, AoC, Warhammer, CoH/V, Vanguard, Eve, SWG, EQ2, DCUO, LotRO, FR, Rift, or a plethora of other games out in the market now or soon to be released. The existance of those other games even has zero to do with the introduction of SC to the SOE games.
    Heck, my guess is that more players have left MMOGs because they have A- gotten a job with hours that don't fit gaming, B- gotten a girlfriend or gotten married, C- had a baby (or more than one), D- gotten tired of MMOGs and needed a break that hasn't ended, E- gotten into college/grad-school, F- can't afford the cost of subscription + ISP + rent/power to play, G- a combination of the other reasons, H- none of the reasons.
    Before SC was added to the SOE games, there were players leaving for a variety of reasons that had nothing to do with SC, that did not change just because there is a Marketplace. It wasn't/isn't the suddenly the only reason any player will leave the games.
    It IS amazing that EQ1 is still going strong with a healthy player base. It is no wonder at all, and has absolutely nothing to do with SC, that EQ1's player base is diminished from the height of its popularity. The diminished playerbase doesn't even have anything to do with marketing either. It is NOT a new fresh amazing game. Its graphics, its mechanics, AND its content are very dated. The same can be said of EQ2, actually.
    Without having SOE's numbers, you can't even, with a shred of authority, make a claim that EQ1's population is greater than EQ2's.
    As for the accuracy of polls, professional polls reduce their margin of error by paying attention to those who are approached to respond. A forum thread isn't the same thing as a poll and, at best, can only be a 'poll' of those who spend time on the forums which is a small subset of the total number of players. Thus, it's accuracy is FAR less than the accuracy of poll taken by professional polsters who always calcualte what the margin of error is projected to the rest of the 'community' and note how many were involved in the poll and where the poll was taken. Yes, a poll IS a guess, but some guesses are more educated (take into account several factors and mathmatically calculate a margin of error) than others.
  8. ARCHIVED-Andok Guest

    Lalen@Everfrost wrote:
    I think you are confused over the purpose of different kinds of polling. With elections, we attempt to poll the entire population, and the purpose is to just tally the results. With sample polling, we calculate results (with a margin of error) based on data from just a sample of the entire population. The methodology in selecting the representative sample is very important, and you do not get meaningful results if you let the sample select itself. This is the mistake you are making when you try to calculate how many people left EQ1 based on that forum thread.
    Don't feel bad. Game forums like this are ripe with folks that try to make meaningful percentages of an entire population (all EQ players in this case) based on data collected by a self-selected sample. It's a common mistake
  9. ARCHIVED-Valdaglerion Guest

    Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:
    We stopped caring because SOE stopped caring. Its purely money churn on the existing customers now. Buy fluff and nothing more.
  10. ARCHIVED-Darthor Guest

    Andok wrote:
    Attempt being the key word there, that was my point no matter how you look at it everything is a sample unless you go through and force people to vote (which this opens a whole new can of worms LOL!)
    As I said, I didn't base this completely on that thread, it is, however supporting evidence not "the whole truth". This comes from in-game population, SOE's responses during that time, and player's experiences etc to complete this picture.
    When the math is done 2+2 = SOE lost a lot of people as a result of SC. This is ALL my past 20 posts has been about.
  11. ARCHIVED-Eisrael Guest

    My, my, Lalen... aren't we the arrogant, passive agressive. Heh. You assume a great deal, and that tends to dent your credibility.
    Here's another pro-tip; Bombarbing readers with eye-bleed inducing walls of text does not an intelligent poster make.
    Good grief.
  12. ARCHIVED-Darthor Guest

    Rijacki wrote:
    I have 4 kids under 9, a wife, own my own business (so the hours are a bit... stupid sometimes) and I have never missed a beat. I know a lot of folks in my guild that are the same way -- EQ has always been apart of the daily regiment.
    Rijacki wrote:
    Here is what I do know from a controled enviornment (an enviornment in which I had access to all the numbers): 3 days before SC our guild in EQ1 had 271 active members (when alts were hidden). Unless we were an anomolous guild for some unforseen reason then logic dictates that if our guild in one night lost 72% (193 members) of its active population due to cancellations where 60% (160 forum accounts posted they left because of SC) of that 72% actually posted in our forums that SC was their reason for leaving the game. We can deduct that this was more wide-spread than just our guild.
    I'm not as niave as you may think so good luck trying to convince me it was just my guild when I remember other guild leaders complaining about the same thing, guild leaders pleading with other guild leaders for alliances for raiding, and the unthinkable, SERVER-LONG RIVALS CREATING ALLIANCES. This until this point in time was unheard of.
    No matter how this is turned, no matter how you want to fry it, the EQ1 community was lied to and then had SC shoved down their throats like it was some illegal substance... I remember very well "In case you don't want to try it, we've preloaded your account with a little bit (so you can get hooked)." Maybe it was something that was more than welcomed to EQ2, from the looks of it and everyone's attitude here, it was, but it was NOT welcomed by the community of EQ1 that was there the day before SC was released; that is a FACT.
    Eisrael wrote:
    My, my, Eisrael.... aren't we being the narcissistic-antisocial. Heh.
    I guess I should have seen it because I tend to get rather heated when other human beings put a dollar before the consideration of common decency in any interaction. But again this is the tell-tell symptom of antisocial disorder and the lack of compassion is from narcissisem.
    Would you rather me make everything one huge paragraph of text?