Why do Monks always get Ignored and continue to WAIT?

Discussion in 'Monk' started by ARCHIVED-Deranged, Apr 27, 2009.

  1. ARCHIVED-therodge Guest

    NamaeZero wrote:
    dont get me wrong brawlers need alot of help but innacurate information wont help your cause mitigation is contested
  2. ARCHIVED-Polynikes Guest

    therodge wrote:
    Mitigation blocks the same % of damage regardless of the mob level. As in 65% mitigation will always mitigate the same % whether the mob is level 75 or 85. So yes, mitigation is uncontested.
  3. ARCHIVED-Jihrun Guest

    Grondak@Nagafen wrote:
    Well, I actually respec'd over the weekend using my dusty AA mirror and made two builds. With one I kept my current DPS setup and I created a new one for tanking. I ended up tanking a few shard runs in Deep Forge, Befallen and Miragul's and didn't do too bad with the tank setup. For AA's, I basically chose anything that had "parry" and "defense" in it and of course I maxed out points in my taunts. And I also grabbed whatever gear I had that had +defense (or is it deflection?).
    We have a really really well geared Pally in the guild and he almost always tanks so I've always been spec'd out for DPS. Since he recently got his Swashy up to 80 our small guild is in need of another tank. And in light of all the conversation here about Monks and their direction, I decided to give this tanking thing a try... hence the tank jobs this weekend. My fury healer said it was MUCH easier to keep me healed than the berserker who was with us but I think this is because our zerker just came back from a break and he doesn't have his shard armor yet, whereas I have my T1 set with adornments.
    So anyway... yeah, I see your point Grondak. Tanking isn't quite as difficult with my Monk as I thought it would be spec'd and geared for it properly, but I'm still ambivalent about some of the TSO instances. In the shard instances I still got hit pretty hard and I'm wondering how many tanking Monks have almost been one or two-shotted, which would be disaster for most groups, especially one without a class that could pick up aggro and survive long enough to rez the tank.
    Edited to add one last thought: WTF with our taunts? Do we have no AoE taunts? Re-specc'd my taunts were pretty good and in emergencies there wasn't anything that Peel or Rescue couldn't handle but when fighting more than one mob I had to constantly cycle between mobs. I guess I"m not as uber as other Monks here but for me that was frigging difficult. Maybe I just need more practice.
  4. ARCHIVED-couching Guest

    Dorieon@Unrest wrote:
    No, mitigation is affected by mob level.
    It's more likely as block, only affected by mob level, and mitigation debuff from mobs.
  5. ARCHIVED-Mattly Guest

    /agree /sign
    EQ2 is the closest mmo that designed monk animations with some decent martial arts animations so I would hate to see the class fall by the wayside.
  6. ARCHIVED-Lorrn Guest

    Couching@Crushbone wrote:
    No, mitigation is NOT contested AT ALL. the only thing you see being affected by mob level compared to mitigation is your %. your mitigation does NOT go down or disappear when fighting a lvl 85 epic it stays EXACTLY the same and you use every single bit of it no matter what lvel the mob is. Did no one pay attention when they were leveling every single time you level if you dont upgrade gear your mit % goes down but the total mitiagtion number STAYS THE SAME. Mit is ABSOLUTELY NOT CONTESTED. Whens the last time you leveled a character and moused over your mit and it said your mitigation appears lower cause your skills arent maxed? oh thats right never. a Mit DEBUFF is the only thing that will actually lower your total mitigation.

    as far as everything else yes i still agree that strikethrough is the biggest hunk of crap ever thought up by a dev. someone at some point mentioned striking through mit. well thats the same thing and woudl jsut screw brawlers even more along with the rest of the tanks too. There is absolutely zero reason BRAWLER avoidance shoudlnt be uncontested in its entirety from self buffs and gear. if it unbalances survivability adjust the max self buffable avoidance a brawler can get its that frikin simple. balance is the goal in the end. and its laughably easy to test it.
    you create the exact same group vs teh exact same mob and use 1 of each tank and do the fight. rinse repeat count up totals for each tank and if the total dmg done to each tank is the same blam balance done. rinse and repeat for an assortment of different types of raid mobs. its the survivability that shoudl be balanced across the tanks. how each tank gets it can be vastly different and should be. destroy plate tank avoidance(a shield shoudl be their ONLY source of avoiding anything) if needed, make brawlers avoid uncontested if needed, get rid of strikethrough, adjsut plate tank mit to a point they can survive gow often they get hit adjsut brawler avoidance to the point they can survive the full blown hits they are gonna take. adjust the dmg the MOBS to balance the tanks not the dmg players do with spells and ca's its easy to add more hp to a mob if they are dieing to fast, easy to add cc elements ot a fight or power drains or mem wipes and stuff that requires a skilled group to beat, enough of this if you dont have this exact person standing in fornt of it your gonna get one shotted crap.

    anyway those are my thoughts on it.
  7. ARCHIVED-BChizzle Guest

    Having thoughts on something doesn't make it truth.
  8. ARCHIVED-Lorrn Guest

    BChizzle wrote:
    Oh by all means go ahead and attempt to prove me wrong then?
  9. ARCHIVED-NamaeZero Guest

    I think there is a disagreement here as to what is meant by uncontested. What I mean by mitigation being uncontested is that it always factors in when you take a hit. There's no monster (to my knowledge) that hits plate tanks through their armor and ignores the effects of mitigation (their primary defense.) On the other hand there are plenty of monsters that possess the ability to hit you automatically, especially when you're dealing with Strikethrough. This is an imbalance in the parity between mitigation and avoidance and it is one of the reasons Avoidance < Mitigation. The others include streaky attack rolls, weakened performance of damage shields/procs on Monks, and healing related problems.
    Brawlers need ways to compensate for this, such as:
    • Easiest way: Scrap the idea of an avoidance tank altogether. Brawler leather armor adjusts to give them similar mitigation and avoidance values similar to what Plate tanks get. If you need a roleplay reason why Brawlers mitigate as much as a metal plate in leather, imagine that they flow with and control the force of the blows aimed at them and lower the damage by moving with it instead of using armor to soak the impact.
    • Adjust avoidance tanking to compensate for it's weaknesses. Perhaps brawlers get briefly harder to hit everytime they get hit, making streaks of multiple hits much harder to maintain.
    • Remove Strikethrough, or make Brawlers immune to it's effects. A Brawler should always get a chance to apply their primary defense against any standard melee or ranged attack, the same way the other Fighter's do. This also applies to melee based AoE's: If Mitigation applies to it, then so should Avoidance.
    • Heals, regens, vitae and wards should all give a slight avoidance bonus whenever their healing is expended but not needed. It should be even more noticable on wards and vitae since those all depend on being hit.
  10. ARCHIVED-fre'do Guest

    Well maybe the monks are fine in SOE eyes and that is why we get ignored. Too me this is the best class and nothing needs to be changed....just people minds...we can tank, we can solo, we can one hit stuff, we can play dead, we can hide, we can raid, we can taunt, we can heal, and we can dps. The next thing yall want for us is to cast a fireball since that is the only thing we cannot do...well i guess a the fist is like that.
    If the predators dont do there best attacks quickly, if the warlocks dont do go over board...we can do stuff...but most people just go all out and wonder why they die and we cannot keep agro.
    The issue is we are not Metal tanks...so healin us is completely different then them. We have spurts where we dont get hit and we have ones where we get hit alot. We should not be compared to the metal tanks because we are just different, we should be compared to monks and bruisers. As for avoidance we have much better avoidance then the plate tanks...because there avoidance from the shields is from the front only while ours is from all sides.
    I group with a fury and we work well togather. When we get into bigger groups and i am the tank I know i will be fine because she knows how to heal me. We been groupin since we were in our 30's. She knows the monk class well and i know the fury class well. Then i used to group with a different fury and we would always die because he didnt know how to heal a monk. Lets see I have tanked a Epic once when 2 groups of the raid was dead and my group lived because of group feign death. She was in my group and started bringin back the other priest to get people up...and someone flirted with a epic and since i was the only tank i did my job. I survived the whole fight and had the metal tank as backup. It was great healin by everyone and noone freaked out.
  11. ARCHIVED-BChizzle Guest

    fredo wrote:
    Fred, I'll admit Pangs a good healer, however, you can't compare your experience tanking an EPIC once versus what others have to go through all the time. On top of that, your comparision on scouts and warlocks having to wait doesn't have to happen with a plate tank in the group. Fact is we are by far the worst tank on agro generation and the ability to take hits, it needs to be fixed. Do me a favor buddy, come back here after you tank the heroic palace instance.
  12. ARCHIVED-Lethe5683 Guest

    fredo wrote:
    If we were to look at other classes the way you do then mages can tank and pallys can heal...
  13. ARCHIVED-scalzo Guest

    Well more mitigation would be nice, but I don't think that is the major topic with brawlers. I think most would agree more AE aggro control ability is the major thing that should be addressed at the moment. That is where we get hurt at. We can lock down a single target np. Most of TSO 98% is group encounters. So more AE control would be very nice because my little pinky finger is getting tired of that tab key LOL.
  14. ARCHIVED-Mewse Guest

    I created a monk because necromancers were being totally neglected by SOE and I wanted to try other classes. Now I see that the grass is just as dead on this side of the fence....
  15. ARCHIVED-BChizzle Guest

    Mewse wrote:
    You pretty much fail at picking classes, my guess is your next choice will be a druid.
  16. ARCHIVED-Deranged Guest

    fredo wrote:
    LMAO...Thats why every Monk is joining in saying their is some major unbalances in our class, come back when youve learned what we see.
  17. ARCHIVED-Lorrn Guest

    yep that is the crux of the issues agro control. when i play my sk agro is a joke in comparison to my monk. whether its single target or ae plate tanks win in the agro department. plate tanks have more and better snap agro tools if you can even count peel as snap agro in tso(which you cant really heh). Can a brawler tank raid content, sure. you set up their group properly and they can tank teh mob well enough. BUT. agro is THE problem. your dps shoudnt have to restrain themselves on a raid, with all the reductions and xfers out there dps will still rip agro off a brawler way way easier then they coudl off a plate tank. that in my mind is thing number 1 on the list of things brawlers need to get fixed. once thats working properly the getting 1 shotted by a mob as a tank thing is number 2. a brawler shouldnt have to have thousands of hp more then every other tank just to survive the first hit of a fight. something needs to change in that aspect. any other fixes after that woudl be gravy i think. even if they just fixed our agro issues ild be happy. theres ways to get around being one shotted (death saver buffs from healers and such).
  18. ARCHIVED-Deranged Guest

    But I wish everyone would ask them selves, why would you even bring a Brawler to a raid to tank over the 4 very useful plate tanks, are we going to get such a revamp we can boot a plate tank out of their position so we are back in a raid? Or do something completely different with our class with the binge we are stuck in atm.
  19. ARCHIVED-Lorrn Guest

    thats another tough issue there man. half the brawlers I know woudlnt mind getting turned into a dps'er and the other half are absolutely against it.
    Me personally I made my monk to be an avoidance tank not an avoidance dps'er. If they could somehow fix avoidance ot be an equally viable way to tank raid content I'ld be enormously happy. some serious changes in the mechanics of avoidance woudl have to occur for that to happen though and statistically speaking SoE usually goes teh easy way out so either we will stay sub-par for tanking or they will just turn us into a dps'er and be done with it.
    Not really sure how i feel about it either way. Luckily I'm in a guild with some cool folks we arent all crazy hardcore saying you have to do this much dps to fill a dps spot or whatever so I can take my monk on raids or my SK or whatever is needed that day. so to me its not as big an issue as it is for some others that want to raid their brawlers.
    I'll still always believe that as a fighter a brawler should be a viable tank in every situation other then the scripted fighter x must tank mob a fights. if soe were to change brawlers into a dps'er im not really sure if i would continue with the class other then soloing stuff which lets face it would get nerfed to oblivion if the calss was changed into a pure dps class.
    I truely hope that SoE doesnt take the easy way out this time and puts some serious thought and creativity into re-designing the brawler into a REAL avoidance tank with this "new and improved" fighter revamp they are planning.
  20. ARCHIVED-Deranged Guest

    Man your right half Brawler population will be happy and other half will be mad no matter what happens to us...
    All i want right now is something to change, ill be happy either way as long as they do it right...