Why do Monks always get Ignored and continue to WAIT?

The fighter revamp was actually almost all positives for monks. It included big boosts to our defensive capabilities and AE aggro, along with small dps boosts. While some of the general ideas were bad, such as spell consolidation and the AE tank/ ST tank paradigm, the actual fixes there were fantastic and would have made us capable of tanking raid content appropriate to our guild's progressions (As opposed to now, when we can tank raid content only once we've already progressed past it and geared up from it).

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I think it would be better if they switched the STR deflection chance out with the old 5% parry/riposte ability, I have no clear understanding of how deflection chance actually works but from what I can tell it doesn't seem that great. TSO fighter AA line has Riposte Mastery that increases the damage of such attacks, which would have worked nicer I think with the old KoS STR line AA. Other STR AA could use tweaking too, like preassure point seems to give a low debuff when compared to where the game is now, and neglible damage. I wish the DA was increased for the STR line, I miss how we could get almost 100% just through AA even if it was without a weapon.
The STA and AGI line are more likely candidates for utility with some DPS as they are now. STA has a useful end line ability which is neat for PvE and great for PvP, the only problem is that it sucks when you actually compare it to other endline stuff and should be 100% critical, for all hits, for the full 10 second duration. That would of course require the devs to actually fix critical mitigation which seems like a long shot right now.
INT really could be more of a tanking tree, the endline could or should really be buffed for it, the WIS line could up the AoE damage... Actually looking over these AA again I think switching out any DPS enhancing AA from any of the trees will just nerf our DPS so much more that it wouldn't be funny.

The EoF tree just needs about 50% more AA choices, with endline AA that can actually be compared to those of other classes in terms of use and power. More AA choices in that tree would essentially force people to choose, rather than now where it's a bit of everything but you're going to get most of it anyway with 70 points even if you don't need or use the ability.
The stances need to define their roles more clearly. Something like all out defense/tanking at the sake of DPS, all out DPS at the sake of defense, and somewhere inbetween which isn't a vast improvement to either but no negatives, and perhaps with a utility group buff added to it.
For gear? Yep, there should be plenty of choice for either spec.

I agree with most of the ideas, but I don't want to nerf monk needlessly just to make it seem a more viable change. Other hybrid classes don't seem forced to lock into specs either, so neither should we. I would rather they went with tweaking our AA's and abilities positively, like removing the 8 trigger count to our lightning palm, give haste a purpose heh, rather than nerfing the class to bring our DPS in line with our survivability which seems to be the current goal.

• For Brawlers, Minimum Avoidance Chance should = Regular Avoidance Chance. No more mobs with attacks that get to ignore our primary defense out of hand or hit through Tsunami.
  
• Adjust haste caps to be in line with the amount of haste you give out via itemization.
  
• Fix broken AA's and AA's that don't do what they say on the box (e.g. Focused Followup).
  
• Reorganize the entire Monk AA tree with 4 working, useful endline abilities *minimum.*
  
• Give us a similar amount of AE autoattack, double attack, +crit in our AA's as other Fighters.
  
• Give us something to make up for our lack of passive taunt aggro, especially when fighting multiple mobs.
  
• Enhance: Heal and Mending Spirit AA should either stack, or one of them should be changed.

NamaeZero wrote:

Maybe all deflection should = uncontested avoidance but if all avoidance for brawlers were uncontested they would have to lower our mit to like.. 20% which would simply make us end up in the same situation we are in now only more exaggerated.

Deflection chance ups your uncontested avoidance, which makes that option great for raiders or folks fighting high level mobs, but not particularly good for soloers or anyone fighting even conned mobs.
As far as the haste issue goes, I think the best answer to that is to change everburning into a flurry buff. It accomplishes the exact same result at the solo level (i.e. hitting the enemy more often) but allows us to take advantage of the haste buffs if we get a troub or illy in the group instead of immediately capping out.

For adornment, we need 3% mitigation increase or 3% riposte adornment for crushing weapon. At the moment, adornments for crushing weapon suck very much.
For aggro, peel needs a hotfix to be working on TSO raids. It's ridiculous that we even get peel focus as our TSO aa and it didn't work on tso raids.

Peel is really a serious problem. What they did making everything immune to aggro lock is the equivalent of saying to paladins "Oh, amends doesn't work in raids" or to guardians "Oh, by the way, you can't use recapture anymore. kkthxbye."
Its a serious problem that kills our desireability as a tank, and it seriously needs a fix.

Akodia@Lucan DLere wrote:

I'm not understanding why they would have to lower mitigation? Uncontested Avoidance = Normal Avoidance for Brawler just means that we tank the same way against epics as we do against group and solo. It seems a lot more consistant to me. Obviously, outside Avoidance buffs on Brawlers wouldn't get this special benefit, and would be contested as normal but I dislike the idea of anyone bypassing our primary defense automatically. That's something that should require a debuff at least. Give us a chance to resist it somehow!

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Meh. The reterming of all this stuff and adding new mechanics just obfuscates the purpose even more. I had thought the old defensive ability in the STR line was uncontested too since it was a % to parry/riposte. If all the future buffs to avoidance are going to be deflection then that seems like it's only going to diminish the mechanic of riposte even more.
It would be funny if they actually changed Everburning into something completely different like an encounter AoE proc buff that does fire damage.

I think the best fix for Everburning is to make it a chance to flurry instead of haste. It accomplishes the same benefit (hitting more often) without pushing us towards a cap.

NamaeZero wrote:

Because having that much uncontested avoidance would be overpowered.

Akodia@Lucan DLere wrote:

To be a viable tank, you can't be one or two shotted (mobs can double attack). The more hits you can stay alive, the better tank you are.
80% uncontested avoidance + 40% mit <<< 60% uncontested avoidance + 60% mit in survivability for hard hitting mobs (usually epic mobs).
It's a very bad idea to trade off mitigation for more uncontested avoidance. On the contrary, it's really easy for soe to fix brawler tanking; adding more gear, adornments with + mitigation increase for brawlers.

Couching@Crushbone wrote:

All I was saying is that having 85%+ ubcontested avoidance would be incredibly op and would have to be compensated for in some way.

Mitigation is uncontested and no one complains about that, so I'm not seeing why uncontested avoidance is so incredibly OP by definition. Obviously, you'd look at the plate classes and take their average uncontested avoidance and multiply it by their mitigation to get a target number. The resulting number is what you should get when you multiply monk uncontested avoidance by mitigation. So if a plate tank has 60% mitigation and 60% uncontested avoidance with X tanking gear, then a monk with the same quality of tanking gear and 80% uncontested avoidance should have 45% mitigation. If we're allowed to get uber'ed up to 85% uncontested avoidance then 42% mitigation would more appropriate (given the example.)
I think it's the whole deal with strikethrough on Avoidance that doesn't make sense to me. I can see how a monster could hit a plate tank so monstrously that it passes through armor, but how does it work where a monster misses but then hits anyway? What exactly are they striking through in that case?
I'm also assuming that we get Meditative Healing back up to 40% to act as spike protection. Even balanced against plate tank defense, Avoidance is still slightly inferior to mitigation because it's vulnerablity to streaks.

NamaeZero wrote:

No, you can't balance mitigation and uncontested avoidance in this way.
I have already explained the reason; any tank is a bad tank when he can be one or two shotted.

I was tanking in Chelsith last night for a guildie's Epic update and almost got one-shotted by a random Yah-lei heroic. I was in defensive stance and have T1 shard armor. Admittedly, my AA's are not set up for tanking but stilll... yeesh.

Morgane@Everfrost wrote:

I'm in T2 shard armor + adorns with tanking AA + 90% master 1s. I have absolutely no trouble MTing "most" TSO zones. Just did Crucible 15mins ago for example.
I don't understand why so many of u seem to struggle with tanking non-raid content?? Agro holding isn't that hard and survivability is good imho. I suppose I do play on Nagafen and therefore min-max more than most Bluebies but even so......
For agro holding I strongly recommend taking Wisdom line right until the end. Master 1s in Taunts, Dragon stance and AOEs including our "bad breath" are a must. IF u taunt then AOE x2 and have Crane Flock as a back-up u can hold group agro in most circumstances. I can't imagine attempting multi-mob tanking without wisdom line.......
And come on Chelsith?? All the RoK zones are ridiculously easy now. I have no idea how u got nearly 1 shotted in Chelsith. Maidens is now a 20-30min zone.....and Chelsith is much easier.
On Nagafen Brawlers easily get multiple raid places, are accepted as effective tanks and effective DPS and devastating PvP toons. I remember my days on a PvE server, people don't quite push things to the limit and don't min-max in quite the same way. You won't see many lvl 80s on Nagafen that would dare set foot in the world without Full adorns, Full potions, Full Clickies, Maxed AAs, the BEST gear they can get ---> and they will know every trick and macro CAs, they will know about all the other classes buff,debuffs etc. I know this isn't the norm on PvE servers - there are good raiders and skilled players for sure but there is a lot of absolutely appalling rubbish too......
When i see a PvP Monk (Not from Vox/Venekor as they really don't count) complain on this forum then I will accept the problem is as big as the whiners here claim. Up until then I'll continuing fighting freeps and watching my guild use 3 brawlers on TSO Raids /peace

Also 40% mitigation?? That seems very low.
Even if you just had mitigation adorned T2 shard armor u should be >40%
Add in mythical (fairly common these days) or if any of your healers/support grant +mitigation its not unusual to be sitting at >50% in a standard PUG!! my rough aim for a PUG would be about 80-85% avoidance 50+% mitigation and at least 15.5K HPs (usually higher).

It is inappropriate to compare gaming experience on pvp and pve servers.
It may be fine to have 3 brawlers in raids on pvp server since brawlers are great for pvp.
However, it is absolutely stupid to have 3 brawlers for min/max raids on pve server.

NamaeZero wrote:

Plate tanks can't get anywhere near 60% uncontested avoidance. The point is however that plate tanks shouldn't have any where near as much avoidance in general as they do. There's a reason that mobs hit so hard, and it's because of the rediculous amounts of avoidance plate tanks are able to get while also having very high mitigation.