Back to basics, why we were not competitive or desired prior to SF and why SF exacerbates the problem. PRIOR to SF Can we DPS? Yes but no other class requires as many buffs (re;resources)to perform that function and even fully buffed we are not competitive to other T1 DPS topping any specific parse. Unless there is heavy jousting in which case we can out parse an Assassin but not a comparably equipped and played sorcerer. We are buff ******; we need DPS, Speed and additional triggers to stay ahead of comparable Illy’s, Coercers, Swashy’s and sometimes even Brigs. All of whom bring more to the table than DPS. Wizards and Warlocks can top our parse with only a Troubadour in their group. Even fully loaded we rarely compete with Assassin if they are running with fewer buffs with no chance at all when they are in the OT and MT groups most of the time. In short we take far too many resources in return for our output, and even then the output is not competitive. If there were balance we would offer the best available DPS to offset lack of utility and the required resources to achieve that DPS. You can get better DPS with a lot less resource requirement for all 3 of the other T1 DPS and get better utility to boot. This is the root of our problem getting slots in Group and in Raid. Some specific factors are lack of self buffs. At one point Villany and Hunter’s Instinct were fairly equal. Since the reduction in bow damage, removal/reduction of procs and poison crits this is a woefully underpowered buff. Assassins get 78 DPS Rangers 49 attack speed at master, certainly an inequity. Both are made less desirable because of abysmal hit rates. The entire Predator tree is focused on melee and or stealth save one for Ranged Crit. Autoattack with equal quality weapons and spec are close to even but the Assassin gets much better ca damage and damage modifying CA’s. In addition to the predator tree focus on their innate abilities. It is unfair to concentrate on Assassins as they are no longer top DPS with the hit rates being what they are but they are our most direct comparison. Over the period of years we have entirely lost what uniqueness we had to other class and racial traits and ca/spells. Tacking is given out as a racial, and maps greatly reduced the effect. Pathfinding does not stack. Amazing arrow is of no consequence, blame arrow is actually a hindrance. We lost ranged damage, procs, poison crit and had to work hard to find gear that would help us out. There has been no overcomming the nerfs placed on us in EoF. The time since has in fact seen the DPS gap spread. There is no facet of the game where we have an advantage in what we bring to a group or a raid. What Happened in SF? We got some exciting changes to CA’s that flat did not work. Stream Of Arrows was changed into a working AoE. Hawk Attack, our group deaggro that did not work, was changed to drop us 3 hate positions if it dies (not much of a group incentive). Minimum Range was removed from AoE CA’s. Casting time of sniper shot was reduced to actually be able to fit it in between AutoAttacks. Focus Aim got an available extension to the Nature’s bonus allowing us to lengthen time helping the group hit more often and improve group melee DPS (not huge as we usually don’t get in groups with a lot of melee DPS). We got some exciting additions in new AA’s in the predator tree, that actually benefits the Assassin more. For instance they get 5000 more damage out of just CA’s in the end line ability which removes stealth requirements and provides a crit bonus of 40. This end line is also perfect for their chaining abilities and we can expect much more than just the 5000 in damage to increase the gap in DPS. The end Result is that through most of beta we maintained or lost a little ground in the status quo as the other T1 DPS got the same or better benefits in SF. We still take more resources to get optimum DPS and when we do get it we still don’t compete for a top DPS slot. In short, no time or thought was spent on getting Ranger's Balanced. Time was spent correcting some very irritating CA’s and for that at least we can be appreciative. Time was spent in the Ranger tree to give us stuff equal to the assassin, not to catch up just equal save the end line which is a definitive bust. This came to a head when was revealed that all melee got access to new equipment that give AoE/Flurry to a good deal of the items in SF. When I say all melee I mean all melee EXCEPT for Rangers ….. who are not really melee? So instead of making progress which would require that we provide the best DPS to offset our lack of compelling utility and the amount of resources we require to do that DPS. We instead had some irritations removed and have had the DPS potential widened in the wrong direction. Now we are told that they understand the inequity involved in exempting us from AoE/Flurry equipment, that the ‘fix’ cannot be made before release. We are all excited about ‘they are working on that for us’ and have lost sight of the fact that NOTHING has been done to correct the original imbalance. We are still, even with a fix to the new disparity they introduced, in the same boat we have been in for years! We are still not going to be attractive to include in instances, raids or guilds.
Rangers need to be fixed so they can at the very least be able to compeate with top parsers its understandable since we have ranged attacks that our dps is lower BUT the fact that we do so little is a bit ridiculus with the buffs we can do okay BUT the problem there is in ANYYY raid party we are placed in a crappy slot where no buffs exist because the fact our dps is lower and they would rather higher dps classes get it. Im also glad that the problem is being worked on but the problem there is at the same time you make the other classes better making it pointless.
The "rangers can still DPS at range" argument is so stupid. guess what, so do mages, and they still do more DPS then we do.
glowsinthedark wrote: a level 1 character if it hits the target can "dps" im not saying that im talking about how crappy a ranger is at doing good dps when its main purpose is in fact dps and has no utilitys what so ever.
Very nice sum-up. I'm not asking to do more DPS than other T1 classes. I just want to be competitive. I should be fighting them on the parse. However, even if we did equivalent damage, our 'utility' is so low that given a choice between a ranger, assassin, wizard or warlock, ranger will still be the last pick. I've said it before and I'll say it again: this class needs a complete overhaul, top to bottom, to fix the issues that have built up over years of 'just getting by'. I want to point out again that rangers are already second pick at best. I want to point out that rangers are already asked to sit out of raids routinely because on nastier fights you simply cannot justify bringing a ranger along when every slot is desperately needed to be at its utmost best possible configuration. No matter how good of a player you are, that's the simple facts of the class as it stands. I don't feel I'm being greedy to say that this NEEDS to be the next mechanics overhaul focus, and it needs to be put in at the next live update after expansion release AT THE LATEST. That means May. By May, we should have Halas, and we should have a ranger overhaul. The only alternative is going to be a ghost class, because rangers just can't wait any longer. It's past desperate, it's into ludicrously bad and ridiculously overdue. Please remember, the last time we had a big 'fix', it was actually a nerf. We have been needing this since KoS at the least. Some of these issues have existed since game launch, and only the ridiculously overpowered nature of procs in DoF punted us to the top of the charts. I've played a coercer, and I've played a shadowknight, both during the period when they were extremely underpowered. I say with utter confidence that even at the lowest of the low points of these two classes, they were NEVER as bad as the ranger class stands to be at expansion release. It's that bad. We really need help, guys. Please, please see to doing this asap. Not at a later date. Now. Get someone working on it now. Rangers are hemorraging members and it's not even release, that's only going to speed up once SF goes live.
Striikor@Nektulos wrote: While I agree with most of what you are saying, how in the world did you arrive at this number for PFT?
Nevao wrote: I posted this on the PT topic in beta. I have not checked to see if it is still current I believe it was accurate as of 1/17/2010. But is not totally accurate right now. These were the times prior to getting 250AA. Both my assasin and ranger times/damage have changed ~equally. I have not done the evaluation since then. But I am pretty sure it is still a mismatch. Copied from the beta post AssassinRanger CAcastRecoveryrecastMinDmgMaxDmg CAcastRecoveryrecastMinDmgMaxDmg Jugular Slice0.370.256014162167 Natural Selection1.50.56013692175 Ambush0.370.251010381536 EmberStrike0.370.51013411971 Stealth Assault0.740.25307121123 Massacre1.110.256011761896 Eviscerate0.370.256018472886 Ranger's Blade0.370.56024823817 Mortal Blade0.370.2512034055482 Hidden Shot2.220.59030404748 Assassinate0.370.25600728811954 Sniper Shot2.220.5600737111965 3.71.7594016882270446.682.58201560324676 5.45 9.18 I did not even factor in chaining and fatal followup which they can get off during the PT duration. But my memory was off on the spread a bit I originally forgot to include selection (doh!). For them it is a greatly improved version of concealment. It should have a lot better than 5000 difference when used in conjuntion with the Fatal Followup CA which for them is easily castable well within the PT time range. Perhaps there is someone who can check it again, today as it currently stands. As I am just not that interested in it anymore, too many other things to worry about. I am not aware of any changes that would affect the ratio. I may of course be wrong.
Striikor@Nektulos wrote: I remember this now. The problem with this comparision is that only takes Stealth Abilities into account and PFT works for all of them (if I remember correctly). Yes PFT caters to Assassins more than us but I would not use this "5000" number as it assumes that any ranger using it does not not understand how PFT works and and is not using PFT to it's full potential. If you want to publish numbers we need to figure out what the optimal rotation for both Assassins and Rangers are and then get the difference in effect there.
You think any combinations of CA's and AA within a 12second spread regardless of stealthed or not is going to show a different picture? Then you have a lot more knowledge and imagination than I do. I eagerly await your analysis. I would dearly love to see our predator endline matching up on DPS output. I will keep my fingers crossed (though they are a bit cramped at this point).
Striikor@Nektulos wrote: That's not what I said. I simply said your 5000 number was meaningless becuase it was based off false assumptions and that if you wanted to use numbers in your arguments they should be more accurate. Posting bad numbers based off bad assumptions or misunderstanding of our mechanics is not going to help move the ball forward. That said I have derailed this thread long enough, and there were several other points made that were very good. We should be focusing on those.
There have been soo many posts, thread and forums outlining all the ways Rangers can be fixed. It is truely frustrating to find yourself in this position, when you love your class sooo much, and generally Rangers do love being Rangers, at least the idea of Rangers, if not the reality. Rangers should be the only fully functional trackers around, I'm still sad/mad the rats and other got that trait, no offense. I remember in EQ1, tracking was one main reason rangers were taken along. There is absolutely no excuse for this not still being the case. We won't discuss kiting since EQ2 doesn't have any traditional kiting, but if they did, this should be a ranger skill as well as it ties in perfectly to doing damage from a distance. In EQ1 rangers were never as undesirable as EQ2 but they did stop being pullers and kiters in the upper tiers. Untill recently. EQ1 rangers got a truely awesome ability in a recent expansion/update. The ability to pull a single mob out of a pack. It has a trick to it, and a 2 minute refresh, but my EQ1 ranger is now a wanted girl, not just becasue she can do damage without requiring healing, but to suppliment the pacy ability of the cleric. Bringing back miracle arrow in its original incarnation would go a long way.
Nevao wrote: Sorry Nevao. but comparing stealth abilities when the point of PT is to remove stealth restrictions AND add crit bonus is not out of whack. Showing the damage for steath realted CA's is pertinent. Add into that the fact that at best haste we will be lucky to get off 3 autoattacks with the current miss rate, we are very likely to miss one of those. Fatal followup is going to be big. I think 5000 is way under what the reality will be. I am asserting that it is a pretty severe mismatch. If you think the number or that what I am saying is a bad assumption or a lack of understanding on my part then correct it. The post is not about Assassins but about imbalance on a tree we should be sharing equally. Since you called me out on it show me how they will not better an equally equipped and specced ranger by at least 5000 during the duration of PT. The chart quantifies the damage of stealth abilities affected by PT. But to disprove what I am saying and show everyone what a noob I am, include whatever CA's and AutoAttack you want to use to describe a less than a 5K difference. GL
Donilla@Antonia Bayle wrote: Sorry to lose that specialty too along with being used on occasion to pull. But it no longer has value between being able to get it elsewhere and maps.
Dear fellow rangers and any developer that cares, What has been done to improve rangers has been nice, the revamp of useless CAs is a start, but than again every class got some revamps to improve they're respective classes! I confirm as a very active ranger in raids and other things, we ARE in the same boat as before... To any developers that may happen across this forum blog: Rangers provide one thing and one thing only, DPS! We offer one short duration buff which helps group mates, but considering that most rangers get stuck with a caster group that buff has little value. Not to mention that any AAs spent on the "Helpful Winds" to make the duration of that buff last longer does not even work. "Focus Aim" is currently at 19 seconds with Precision Flightrift armor two set proc. Thought I could boost it to 24 seconds, but alas, to no avail. <sadface> DPS without the correct buffage means for the most part we slide into a firm 2nd place on any parse at best. Since the expansion, in the same group configuration (and same raid members) I've personally sliped down to 3rd/4th position even with our new AEs. This may be my personal problem, but I can only imagine a similar fate (SF!) to my fellow rangers. <double up, sadface> Mages can DPS and the can root, charm, use pets and/or even tank! Other scouts bring extremely useful buffs to groups! I have an 80 assassin, and the sole reason that gives them an advantage over rangers is the hate transfer, gets them in better groups which gives them better buffage, which equals higher DPS! Tanks can super DPS and guess what...believe it or not can even "tank"!! Rangers only DPS, perhaps a little off-tanking if AA spec'ed, thats about it. We do make good snipers in PvP, as a side note. We can still parse 1st, but its not an easy road, only time will tell as we rangers get better equiped and obtain 250 AA points. I hope a few more small but important tweeks change our output of DPS. Definitely Still a Ranger!
duddwin wrote: Have to disagree, Sorcerers are ranged and have no minimum distance and have better potential DPS Blazenhawk@Antonia Bayle wrote: The time extension is to nature's bonus the 'other' part of FA. It is confusing but casting FA actually kicks off two spells one for group and one for you. It still works (far as I know, I have quit playing siince SF release) to cast and cancel as the timer is based on FA for both NB and FA. I had a macro that listed FA twice casting and caceling it with the same button push. That leaves NB up but makes the timer restart for FA.
duddwin wrote: Is it really understandable? I don't think it is personally. Mages get to be ranged and have no penalties, some argue they are cloth we are chain I say that is not even a close comparison. They have shields that block X amount of damage, they have roots, mezzes and everything else to STAY at range. No our problem is a dev crew that really has no clue what to do with us, they don't mind allowing SK's to be great tanks with great DPS, but a class that should be doing nothing but dps (cause we bring crap to any group) they want to crap on.
Calintra@Antonia Bayle wrote: I would like to also point out that we have to pay for a huge chunk of our ranged DPS yes arrows cost money. Since SOE thinks endless quiver would be unfair or game breaking for some reason. Im not gonna meantion cost of poison, pots or stones since well other scouts use them to. the exception there is of course bards that cant use poisons. which is kinda wierd cause poison could be consider a utility.
First off, Hello, This is my first post, and I'm only a level 38 ranger. Me and friends started to play the game and i choose ranger they choose guardian and paladin. When we group together i seem like the best DPS in the world, but, whenever we get in a group i seem to suck. At first i though it was because i didn't have many AA's and I'm sure that is still a factor. When i first had 20 AA's i looked through the tree for anything that caught my eye and of course it was befriend animal. I was told about 5 days later that this ability sucked. I was really hoping for my animal to tank and i DPS from afar but that didn't work. So i got some advice and redid my AA's. I noticed some increase in damage but nothing huge. I started doing research about Rangers seeing if they are just nerfed for the moment and are in the process of getting fixed. I plan on being a big PVE person but reading this really turns me off to ranger. I come from a EQ1 background so i expected about the same thing. Even though they were different i still wanted to play a ranger because common, it's a ranger! This makes me want to re-roll but i don't want to be a wagon jumper. I can't really say anything about the AA's being one sided towards Assassin but reading this i believe you. I hope that our voices are heard and that there is a overhaul of the Ranger class. This is a side note but do we not get any new abilities past level 80, I'm not sure about other classes and how the expansion packs but no new spells for 10 levels. Even at max level there is nothing new. Not much to look forward to. Rise of Kunark gave rangers no new abilities. That doesn't make sense to me. Maybe other classes got this to i don't know this is all coming from a new player perspective and would love anymore information if you have some.
