Why all the hate?

Discussion in 'Ranger' started by ARCHIVED-Khevynn, Dec 20, 2005.

  1. ARCHIVED-Carnagh Guest

    So was that a "yes" you'd be prepared to give up some solo ability for more DPS?... I'm not sure that you actually answered his question.
    Or was it a "no" you'd not be prepared to give up some solo ability for more DPS?
  2. ARCHIVED-Sokolov Guest

    I wasn't attempting to. I was pointing out that his question appears to have quesitonable assumptions (i.e. Wizards can solo heroic encounters but Rangers cannot).
  3. ARCHIVED-Khevynn Guest

    While I am sure there are a few Rangers that can solo Named Heroics, I cannot. Not that I have put much time in attempting to but once we get into melee range we get owned badly. After the recent change to Poisions it is even worse since a nice chunk of our melee damage was taken away (No I am not complaining about that, I like sitting in the rear shooting arrows). I would guess Rangers who can do it make extensive use of Stun poisons (add even more cost in). However wizards can do it without getting touched and at no cost.

    Rangers are not complaining about buying poisons, its the fact that our DPS costs us money where as yours does not. Also don't give me that BS that Wizards walk around with int potions. They cost no where near what Adeste's Disruption costs us. Besides I carry 2 Different Damage posions, 2 Different Debuffs and a Stifle poison as well as a Str potion. Wizard potion costs equal no where near what mine do.

    But why don't you address my whole post instead of picking and choosing. we all do not need the same abilities!

    Honestly I don't see Sony making a change in wizards. You can solo great, and you do good DPS in raids, honeslty to give yo more DPS would unbalance you. I don't think Sony wants to make Wizards into Rangers who cast spells instead of arrows. It kid of defeats the purpose of individuality. One thing to remember is that this is a MMO, and everything is subject to change at any point reguardless what the box or manual stated when you bought the game. Yes rangers are enjoying the good life for now but I am sure at some point someone else will get their turn to shine.
  4. ARCHIVED-The_Wind Guest

    The only reason most rangers can solo heroics like that is because of poison. Wizards, can do it on the fly without pre-reqs. I think that is what the guy was trying to get at. Take away the stun poison, the damage poisons, our dps is decreased by, as some have said about 30%, and without the stuns the mobs beat us down, esp now that they can catch us. True, we have snares, we have roots. Snares are great, as long as you don't wanna hit the mob, root is good, too bad it takes 3 min to recast, oh and then pray that something else running around the area doesn't trigger it first, like one of those damned non-aggro [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] rats runnin around PoF. But this whole issue isn't about being able to solo heroics now is it? This issue was about being able to do the same damage output in raids as their counterpart T1 damage dealers. Or was it about aggro control holding the man down? Or was it about utility, and how it is defined herein? I forget, this topic has changed stances so many times its not funny anymore.
  5. ARCHIVED-Sokolov Guest

    Why don't you address the whole thread instead some of the posts? *shrug*

    First, I don't play a wizard.

    Second, at level 43, I can solo most heroics, named or otherwise. Altho I do not understand how the poison change affects a ranger's solo ability as a ranger's greatest strength is ranged.

    Third, if we assume that wizard DPS is lower than ranger DPS, and ranger DPS is augmented by paid for poisons, then the question is - how does ranger DPS compare when there are NO poisons available to the ranger? Viewed from that prespective, the ability to USE poisons, even tho it costs plat, is a BOON for the class because it is AVAILABLE. My feeling is that the potential for extra damage is a good thing. Rangers have a choice to augment DPS with coin, wizards don't - yet rangers cite this ability whic is arguably an ADVANTAGE as a disadvantage.
  6. ARCHIVED-Khevynn Guest

    you dont' understand how the poison change affected the ranger's solo ability? Ok, the change that was made does not allow poison to proc off your secondary weapon, only your primary, so you just lost a good chunk of melee damage. Your right about the biggest strength being ranged but at some point you have to go to melee with the mob, you get 2 bowshots off then you go into melee.

    I have suggested that someone Parse out Ranger DPS with no poison and compare it to wizard DPS. Rangers do NOT cite poison as a disadvantage we cite it as an advantage that comes with a COST that no one else has to bear.
  7. ARCHIVED-Sokolov Guest

    For me, the change affects ranger particularly little as it has no effect on the ranger's greatest advantage, CA procs off the bow's high delay. Even still, it only affects autoattacks with your offhand - CAs still proc (or should) so... you are looking at very little change in the overall picture.

    As for soloing specifically, I never melee when I solo with my ranger. That would be silly - like asking to be beat up =/ I don't know what you solo, but when I solo things can kill me in 3 or 4 hits >< there's no chance I am landing a melee hit. (Gotta love the ranged melee hits tho.) Assuming I DO melee for like... 2 attack rounds, the liklihood i would've procced with my offhand on a couple attacks (provided they aren't overlapped by a CA) is kind of low even before the change. Of course, if you are soloing stuff where you can melee a lot... I doubt there is much trouble anyway. And as for NAMED, which is where we started, I don't see any ranger meleeing a named heroic and living to tell the tale.
    Message Edited by Sokolov on 01-05-2006 03:43 PM
  8. ARCHIVED-Sokolov Guest

    Totally agree. I'd love to see a parse of this type. Someone do it please! =D

    To me, it's kind of odd that only a few classes in the game has the ability to so dramatically increase DPS with some coin. (Of course, rangers get the highest benefit due to the high delay of the bow, but that's a different story.)
  9. ARCHIVED-The_Wind Guest

    You want to compare with the ability to augment vs poison. Ok fine. Where does the poison actually cause a problem? In raid DPS, right? So, take away all poisons from rangers, and maybe their damage might be equal to the wizards. Fine fine, thats considerable. Take away an advantage to put them on par with their peers. That I can understand, except that it unbalances the solo game. Again, most rangers who solo heroics, do so with poisons being their main advantage. Wizards don't have them, however, and are still able to maintain their ability to solo heroics. At what point does it become fair then? Right right, still not fair, ok lets see. Lets not take away all of the rangers poisons, just the damage ones, that way rangers still maintain their utility poisons to compensate. Sounds possible, that might be a fix, but what would that do vs assassin DPS? I'm not quite sure to tell you the truth as I don't see many assassins in here anymore wishing for more DPS. I think they kinda got what they wanted, although this whole mainhand poison proc thing probably peeved them off a bit. So really, the only logical solution for this is to tone down the damage aspects of poisons. Of course, that would affect rogues, and assassins more than Rangers considering they're only able to proc poison off mainhand now, and rangers would still be at an advantage with their bows. So the whole mainhand thing is where the issue comes in. They shoulda left it to proc off both weapons, but reduce the overall quality of damage coming from the procs. If the utility poisons, stun being the one of choice here, is what caused the whole mainhand only issue to begin with, then make all utility poisons proc off mainhand and bow, but damage proc off both. It would reduce the number of utility procs, all the while maintaining the damage procs, but at reduced quality. Wait tho, that still doesn't solve the whole issue of wizards not bein able to keep up. So where do we go from there? Wait thats right, we don't. Thats WIZARDS business. Wrong forum.
    Message Edited by The_Wind on 01-05-2006 03:58 PM
  10. ARCHIVED-pharacyde Guest

    Are you serious only 2 bow shots. What about that back shot that snares the mob, then that doulbe and triple shot, stun the mob move back and do two more bow shots. But seriously on solo mobs most of them are dead after two bow shots and a bit of melee. I can see how that proc change can affect the group or raid dps a bit, but for solo mobs ...

    Now about the price of poison ... You can buy poison from the merchants in Q, which is as good as the handcrafted non legendary poison. It doesn't cost that much. I understand you want the best for raids, and that's your choice. But you see you have a choice, good or uber poison. Mages don't get that choice.
  11. ARCHIVED-Gareorn Guest

    That is so not right. NPC sold poisons don't even come close to crafted. A crafted poison gives you 1400 charges, NPC poisons give you 500 and they get resisted more than twice as often. Some mobs they hardly touch at all. All that, and when they do hit the mob, they do less damage. For the cost, you'd be better off not using poisons at all.
  12. ARCHIVED-Jay42 Guest

    Boo hoo for the mages, then. Seriously, what you don't seem to grasp is that our DPS is designed with the assumption that we're using tier-appropriate poisons. Poison is NOT "extra" DPS, it's necessary to attain the damage output we're expected to have. Do you really want your spells to be reduced to 70% of their damage capacity and then buy some potions to regain that 30%?
    No, using poisons is not a burden, but it's not the unconditional bonus that mages seem to think it is. If we don't use poisons, our damage falls far short of where SOE intended it to be. So yes, it's a choice, just like wearing armor is a choice. You don't HAVE to use it, but it'd be pretty foolish not to.
  13. ARCHIVED-Poochymama p Guest

    I wouldnt do that cuase then you wouldnt be t1 dps anymore on raids. Wizards just need that same opurtunity to be buffes so they can share the love with you guys.
  14. ARCHIVED-pharacyde Guest

    Well I was saying for just doing normal mobs the generic poison was good enough. Of course for raids you need better ones or you will get resisted.

    Now, this is what you are totaly right about. That poison is part of your dps. When you compare a sorcerer to a predator in normal groups. Tank + healer + melee dps compared to Tank + healer + caster dps then both classes are probably about the same in dps. They are all T1. If you remove the poison from your dps you will fall short.

    But here is the problem we are talking about on that other thread you are refering to. The problem is that when you put the group settings correctly you can boost the dps from melee classes alot more then the dps from casters. This doesn't call for any nerfs for rangers or assassins in any way. Because T1 is balanced out of raids. The problem exists only in raids. So we were just asking for buffs, procs, haste items, haste buffs or any way to boost the dps from mages in riads and raids only. We only want it in raids so we wouldn't be overpowered in solo or group situations.

    I hope this explains what we actualy want to achieve for the end game.
  15. ARCHIVED-Stormhawk Guest

    I don't think it is an issue with Rangers hating purchasing poison. I think we are just trying to relay the fact is used to be VERY costly to upkeep and still sort of is if you use poison to their full potential meaning damage, debuff and stun/stifle/slow up at all times. We solo named with that combo and you aren't going to really solo non-green names without a stun potion which drops *very* quickly. Wizards on the other hand do not have to rely on this to solo heriocs.

    I have no issues with them adding some beneficial potions for yalls DPS. With the exception that poisons remain more powerful as they are a staple of predator life and the debuff versions of sorcerer poison never exist as you already have additional utility in spell form.
  16. ARCHIVED-The_Wind Guest

    Best way i've heard it explained Phara. That is the constructive type of commenting we here have been asking for. I salute you!

    But still, I question the necessity of it being on this forum. I mean, we are rangers really, not wizards, or warlocks. Granted, it didn't start out as elegantly put as you have. So it was quite different situation. But now that the constructive thinking has begun, lets continue it, and see if maybe we rangers can help you guys now, get to where you need to be. I'd be more than happy to post along side of thinking on these terms.
  17. ARCHIVED-Khevynn Guest

    You know everyone is getting all spun up over this (Myself included), but I got a serious question to ask......When was the last time a wizard was booted from a raid in favor of Ranger for not doing enough DPS? For that matter when was a Wizard ever told you do not do enough DPS on a raid for you to come? Seems like we are all making much to do about nothing. Honestly, it is starting to seem like whose %#@& is the longest type complaint.
  18. ARCHIVED-Admhel Guest

    I hate rangers because... I have to chase them all the time whenever they ask for my fire proc that has a casting distance of 10m :smileymad:

    Lol beyond that, you guys are alright.. ya'll don't need nerfage. The wizards that mostly complain are peeps who are also envious of summoners. Raiding doesn't necessarity mean that you have to be the best dps. As a ranger that's your job.. you pummel the hell that's in the mob, but as a wizard, we have other roles such as mana dumps, fire procs etc. It's not all about the glory of an individual, but the glory of a team once a big bad boss mob is dead.

    Besides, I wouldn't want SoE to take my ability to solo any ^^^ yellow mob. :p
  19. ARCHIVED-Sokolov Guest

    For those who mention stuff like "Wizards do just as much DPS" or "Some wizard saw a ranger beat him on one raid and assumes it's all like that," you may want to look at this thread:

    http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=89020


    Message Edited by Sokolov on 01-09-200612:44 PM
  20. ARCHIVED-coltlane Guest

    If I'm not mistaken this post further illustrates the need for you wizards to take this to the Combat Forums.