Dasanghul wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ....except the Ranger happens to have something you want, a hate reduction spell/buff. You have it too... its called control. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's a hypothetical situation for you. Don't cast Primal Agility. Raid for a week without it. Then make a less than informed comment like this. Sorcerors are pissed because we cant play our toons because SOE decided to a. Drastically reduce relative hate generation of tank classes. b. Drastically increase relative hate generation of DPS classes. In the process of increasing hate generation, they gave hate deaggro buffs to Swashbucklers, Rangers, Brigands, Troubadors, and Assassins. Sorcerors got nothing. So we sit on our hands. I reiterate. If you feel so confident in your play skill, and want to know what the situation is like for Sorceror's, do not cast Primal Agility, and you can only use one deaggro CA. (Evade is roughly equivalent to the deaggro CA for Sorcerors). Try it for a week, and see how much you like playing your toon when you are constantly watching the dps meter to not peel and endanger your raid, counting to four mississippi on pulls, creating T4/T5 hotbars to help moderate dps numbers in casting sequences when your dps gets close to being too high... and all the while you are doing this, playing your butt off to not peel aggro, look over at the ranger and the brigand spamming and doing twice the single target damage. THAT IS WHY SORCERORS ARE PISSED. Alezara
So what! You are pissed at rangers? Know what I play a ranger as my main...always have...never once became "pissed" that sorcerors did more damage than me, never once invaded other class forums because of ANY displeasure I had with rangers. So why are you here again? What is your justification again as to why you are here distracting rangers from sorting through their own issues when you obviously feel sorcerors have very pressing problems and are in need of some luvin? Oh thats right because you just want to argue your point...you just want to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and moan about sorceror woes to another class. Well let me be the first to shed a tear for the death of your class....hold on here it comes...nope nothing. I dont even have much sympathy anymore. Just irritation that you folk are so self absorbed that you would think our forum should take up your cause. Why not get other sorcerors to take up your cause? Likely they are tired of your complaining too...probably sent you here...just so they didnt have to watch your whiny tactics. This thread should be trashed. or maybe moved to the wiz forum Saihung the pissed off old man
Hmm, I go away for a weekend, and get accused of being a liar and spreading disinformation because I don't agree that poisons qualify as utility. I agree, Soko, the term "utility" is often misunderstood or defined in different ways. Case in point - I don't think I've heard of poisons being defined as utility before you mentioned it. It's an interesting point, but not a real significant one. Soko, you complain a lot about attitude and nerfaholism and the like. Well, consider this my complaint about your attitude, and your baseless accusations. I have absolutely no problem with your actual game-related points; in fact, I tend to agree with many of them and I've said so at various times in different threads. But calling me a liar b/c I don't agree that the ability to use poison should be considered utility is sinking to a new low. I'm disappointed in you, up until recently you made your points in a pretty solid manner. But when you resort to name-calling, I'm left wondering why I'm wasting my time talking to you. Besides, you've already made your points: that people shouldn't be selfish about class balance, that you hate the attitude of ALL classes when it comes to nerfs. Why you continue to trumpet this opinion is beyond me, you're not saying anything revolutionary. I've said the same thing myself before, to my colleagues here. We aren't all terrified of having our class changed. Most of us who aren't power-players realize and accept that it will change, and we will adapt and move on like we always have. So, moving on: I agree that sorcerors really need more hate reduction. I discussed this with a good friend (60 wizard) last week, and that was the biggest discrepancy we came across in comparing our skills and aptitudes. Our Primal Agility buff is immensely useful, and wizards and warlocks have nothing that compares to it. Add in our two skills that can reduce hate on the fly and we're probably in the best overall situation for inflicting the most damage while generating the least hate. Since every DPS class is limited by hate generation, that puts rangers in a better position than sorcerors, especially on raids. That's not the rangers' fault, and complaining to us about it isn't going to solve anything, it will only generate animosity. Go ahead and point me to a thread the appropriate forums, and I'll back you up and provide the necessary info from the ranger class to help make your case. Edited to emphasize the above paragraph. People on both sides of the line need to hear this and accept it if we're going to get past all this BS mudslinging from both rangers and sorcerors. Message Edited by Jay42 on 01-04-2006 01:48 PM
QFE Jay makes very good suggestions and points here...please take them and understand that he is dead on right. Maybe the aa's will offer some solutions (though...fixes shouldnt be had through aa's). Saihung
Okay, I think people are getting confused here, so let's RECAP. Xandez wrote: Predators SHOULD be better DPS than wizards in ANY situations! Why? Simple, we have only our DPS to bring to the group, no resist buffs, no power buffs, etc... just the plain DPS. I disagreed and pointed out, for example, that poisons give rangers group utility. JayZ disagreed that poisons are utility. I responded and gave reasons why poisons should be considered utility, but pointed out that the original idea was to counter the lie that was "Rangers only does DPS." Gareorn misread this line to mean that I was calling JayZ a liar. I responded clarifying. JayZ also misread and possibily skipped my explanation and made this last post. I am again clarifying that the lie I was referring to was not written by JayZ.
I actually believe this is a very significant point. How people define utility is the crux of many debates on these forums, mostly in the form of "X class has better utility than Y class because Z ability isn't really utility In all honesty, I believe everything a class can do, including damage should be considered that class' utility towards a situation. If utility is considered in this manner then damage becomes arguably the most important utility any class can bring. Skills such as Primal Agility and other hate reducers then become utility also and cannot be ignored by the "DPS vs Utility" argument if utility defined much more narrowly. When viewed from that prespective, it is much easier to consider whether classes are actually balanced. Of course, most people don't agree with this view so I don't talk about it much, but it's how I consider classes in my own thoughts. I agree that giving Sorcerers a hate reduction buff will cause their DPS to increase. But what kind of effect does that have on the game as a whole? I think it's a good idea in terms of Tier 1 DPS balance, but again I question the wisdom of increasing the underdog. In my opinion, we already have a situation in the game where there is too much DPS. So much so that, for example, fights are over before the mob even breaks thru the ward I casted before my group pulled. Any change which results in an overall increase to average group DPS, I think, would only serve to further trivialize content. (This is why I caution against nerfphobia, part of the reason for the original Combat Update was due to tweaks and fixes that increased the player's potential to trivialize content. Unfortunately, the adjustments to mobs, the advent of fixes, Tier 6 rare jewellery and significant increases in DPS for several classes in Tier 6 arriving along with DoF/CU meant that the situation would soon resurface.)
Sorry then - given the context, that totally looked like it was directed at me. (I'm not Jay-Z tho, I think he's a rapper or somehin. Either way, though, Xan wasn't 'lying' when he said that rangers don't bring any utility to a group. I don't agree with his statement that predators should always outdamage wizards, but his assessment of our utility is not a "lie." You make it sound like a deliberate cover-up - like we have all these abilities that we're trying to hide. While I've agreed with your point about all classes trying to downplay their abilities to avoid nerfing, calling someone a liar b/c they don't define 'utility' the same way you do (whether that person is me or another player) is going a bit far. Most people generally define "utility" as skills or abilities that provide benefits to an individual, group, or raid that do not easily fit into categories like tanking, healing, crowd control, or DPS. IMO, this includes all manner of buffs and debuffs, mana regen, powerfeeding, teleporting, move speed bonuses, etc. As you well know, we have three skills that are generally defined as "utility:" Pathfinding, Tracking, and Evac. All scouts have these abilities; predators are granted the least utility of all scout classes b/c we're designed to have the most DPS. We're very focused on that singular purpose. I don't think anyone here is crying about not having enough utility, but the original point was that wizards and warlocks DO bring more utility to the table than rangers and assassins. Even if you factor in the ability to use poisons, I still believe that sorcerors have more utility than predators. Is that wrong or unfair? No, but it's a fact of the class design as it exists currently. As you've said before, when we're discussing class balance, we have to take all these factors into account. Disclaimer cuz you need 'em nowadays: I'm in no way saying that sorcs should lose utility or preds should gain utility, just clarifying what I believe was one of the original points of this discussion, which has since been lost in the sound and fury.
May I ask why self hate reduction and self buffs, both of which increase DPS, are not considered utility, but another class' group buff which increases DPS for other members of the group IS considered utility?
Ahhh, very good point. You're right, our hate reducers and perhaps even our snares should be considered utility; I hadn't thought of that before. I do think a hate reducer for sorcs would help alleviate the specific situation WRT our DPS at Tier 1, but it may just be the kind of fix that causes other problems elsewhere. As for the bigger picture about balancing the game as a whole... you raise some interesting thoughts. I'm admittedly pretty focused on my class and I don't tend to see the forest for the trees; I'm not wired that way. I tend to familiarize myself with the specific aspects of the game that concern me and my class (poisons, dual-wielding, ranged combat, etc), and I don't often step back to consider the grand scheme. You may be right that we have a glut of DPS in the game at the moment - that's a hard situation to assess without being the designers. On the one hand, I tend to feel that post-50, all classes should be capable of some pretty incredible feats, but by the same token, the mobs at that level should present a challenge that corresponds accordingly. I've said it before and I will again: my class will be changed. Probably we'll get toned down a bit; this is just a moment in the sun for us and I'm enjoying it while it lasts. Maybe the Second Combat Update (I'm making that up, don't freak) will re-balance the poor mobses and elevate the challenge in the end-game, or maybe the balance will be restored by taking certain classes down a notch. Personally, I won't cry if rangers get reined in, but we both know there will be a lot of howling from any class that gets anything other than candy and presents during a live update.
Sokolov, Just to clarify, I didn't misread your post. I knew what you meant. The way you worded your post made it look like you were calling Jay a liar and I found it to be funny. I thought the "very funny smiley face" communicated the humor I felt. The problem with this thread is that a few people are taking it way too seriously. If you look at my comments throughout this thread, you'll see they are mostly tongue and cheek type of comments if not outright laughing at some troll's post. This thread is by far the worst thread on the Ranger Forum and is pretty much useless except for the fact that, at times, it can be entertaining to read. For a while I was shocked that it didn't get locked, but after browsing through some of the other class forums recently, this thing feels pretty tame by comparison. I find it hillarious that some wizards are here complaining about their class, as if Rangers can do anything about it. One self-absorbded wizard basically states that he doesn't have a problem with his DPS, but rather that Rangers have better DPS. Now that's some funny stuff. It reminds me of a time back when I was 6 and I wanted to play with my little brother's Tonka Truck, but that's another story. I don't care how loud a wizard screams on this thread. It isn't going to do a darn thing toward fixing their class. This is a Ranger forum, not a Dev forum. The louder they scream, the harder I laugh. Like I said, this thread can be entertaining to read at times.:smileyvery-happy:
There are a lot of things unbalanced in the game. But some of the posts on forums are imho facts that are "altered" to prove a point and taken out of the big picture. One can call nerf for rangers if you want but I doubt we will have any bigger nerf on us. Especially since we are probl where we should be. You can point at that ranger and say "hey he dps for 1500". Sure I can do that too, for about 3 seconds then its back to good ol 700-1100 dps over all on a long fight (depending on what I fight and what person and class is tanking and whatever buffs I get and debuffs a mob get from another utility class) I can see wizzards having a problem with low overall dps yes. But no I cant see after SOE lowered mobs hp, that we as rangers do too much dps cuz the mobs go down too fast so we need to get nerfed. So what you want is that wizzards do more dps (a justified demand imo) But no, going to ranger forum and call for nerfs wont get you more dps and probl not a nerf on rangers. Not sure when I was a kid my first thing to do was not to say "Papa my sister has that I want you to take it away from her and give it to me" would get me anything, so when I grew up and got wiser I understod why. You just dont get things from the world by saying "I should have more and you should have less" as an argument.
Just a few things to note all, not some, but all mages have poor anti-aggro: Group: troubador, necro, conj, wizzy, warlock, illusionist, paladin (troubadors hate reduc song on alins tranquil serenade ad3 which is 49% hate generation reduction to all non fighters in group. paladin has amends a hate siphon on troubador at the time. -cast precision of the maestro (back when all the damage proc came from the troubador) -have the group dump everything they can into the burn time. -even with all of us dumping anti-aggro, and hate siphoning reduced hate while the raid tank is dumping into taunts and recieving his own hate feed from assassin i think, I took all the aggro and died after almost the entire minute (what precision used to run for) and I would bit the dirt. scenario 2 same thing except there is no hate reduc or siphoning this time. i got aggro, died within 10 seconds of casting the proc buff, then each of the mages in group followed almost instantly. Scenario 3 *After Precision of the Maestro is made for the players sepraetly to proc the dmg and only lasts for 20 sec, like blade chime* With the aggro reduction and hate siphoning the mages could not make it through the 20 seconds without one or 2 of them dying. Scenario 4 no hate reduction and no hate siphoning. we wiped our group which then wiped the raid. we did not last the full 20 seconds. *ON THE OTHER END OF THE SPECTRUM* have hate reduction (toubador hate reduc) to a group of rangers using stream of arrows and they have their hate reduc as well (primal agility?) have a dirge cast cacophany of blades (blade chime) not one ranger gets tagged, nor if they dumped into the mob along with stream of arrows. Goes to show that a lot of points are true. I wasn't sure myself so I looked at my old logs and compared the data. Tried the ranger thing recently though. But I think I would be upset too. Rangers have some good debuffs like any other class, but for an equivelant to ranger (wizard we'll use) keep up with each other in the dmg abilities they are using. (low-medium-high dmg spells/ca's) The wizard will get the shaft way ahead of the ranger. Im not sure if spell and melee damage aggro is calculated differently, but there's no reason why both of these types of dps classes shouldn't have equal hate reduction, or lessen the scout hate reduction altogether for the predators and rogues. Yes, we all agree that ogues and predators need the reduction, but not in a way that they are made untouchable. Rangers also have debuffs (snipe, foresters noose, debillitating arrow and a couple more) some don't realize what rangers are able to do, they mostly ahve a damage attack pasted to the debuff shots. If you also look at the abilities of wizards and rangers, they both only have i think 3 debuffs each for T6. That looks equal to me so no one can use the "well you can debuff and this and that" defense. Rangers themselves do not need to be nerfed, but the aggro reduction capability of mages and scouts does need a good look over.
Well... on behalf of rangers everywhere, I apologize for our ability to be buffed by other classes. We'll try and knock it off.
Hokay! So we're all in agreement then? Mages have lame aggro-reduction and can't do the damage that we rangers can because of hate generation, so the precious Tier 1 DPS hierarchy is unbalanced. (Nevermind the entire rest of the game, we'll leave that alone for now.) Sorcs in general need a DPS boost on raids or something to enable them to be more effective in long fights. Right? And as for that minefield known as "utility," we'll just call it about equal for the sake of concluding this whole 'discussion.' So, cool, we're set then right? Mages, thank you for stopping by, I'm glad we could help you figure out some of the problems with your classes. If you feel it necessary and/or useful, go ahead and post these conclusions on a more appropriate forum (if you assume that the Devs need that information). Let the SOE gods balance things as they see fit.
I just wanted to let you folks in on a conversation I had with one of my friends who plays a wizard main. He thought it to be hypocritical of me to post in the wizard forums if I had a problem with them posting here. After a dicussion (not as lively as the ones we have on here mind you :smileywink: ) he understood what I was doing and how it is inherently different than what irked me about all of this. 1) I only have a problem when someone decides that they must post in a forum that has nothing to do with the class in question. If a wizard has a problem with how much damage they do compared to ANYONE else, they should post in a wizard forum or combat forum. I.E. A paladin has a problem with how well guardians manage agro...should he post in the guardian forum or the paladin forum...obviously the paladin. 2) I have nooo problem with someone who plays mainly another class coming over and giving us suggestions or trying to determine our function in a group or strats. I.E. That same paladin who had a problem with guardians wants to know what kind of de agro rangers have and what steps we take to reduce our agro. Maybe he is critical of how we do things...THAT IS GREAT!! Woohoo I say...woohoo. Another class came to our forums to discuss something that is in direct relation to our class. I encourage that wholeheartedly. 3)If someone is coming to any forum to start discussions on how their class is borked because ours needs to be nerfed...well, I dont think that would fly in any forum. If any of the folks who posted here feel like they were mistreated I do apologize but you should understand that you did not come here to make nice nice, you came to incense our community. And that will not get you the welcome mat brought out. I can appreciate the discussion but not the approach nor the place. I honestly look forward to discussing this in another forum. Peace Health and Happiness Saihung
I find this funny that other classes want our abilities. Honestly I think this is a reflection on society today where (Everyone gets an "A"). We are not all equal and we should not all have the same abillities. It is what makes us unique. I am sure there are things socerer's and Wizards can do that we cannot. I have no desire to have their abilities. 30% of our DPS costs us money. None of your DPS costs you money. You can AOE nuke. I cannot (2 AOE skils, one of them sucks). etc. I am curious, would wizards be willing to give up the ability to solo named heroics as well as have to buy potions that would increase their DPS just to be equal with us in DPS? Each class can do things others cannot do. Each is better than others in certain situations. The Devs have a very hard problem of trying to balance a game that has so many variables. It is almost impossible to perfectly balance for both raids and normal play.
Firstly, I thought rangers could solo named heroics too. Secondly, I think that, unlike rangers who seem to hate buying poisons, most sorcerers would be happy to buy potions that increases their DPS by the same amount that poisons currently do for rangers. Heck, most Sorcerers I know carry around INT potions as it is.
