Which Classes are Currently Borked?

Discussion in 'General Gameplay Discussion' started by Jesaine, Jun 20, 2022.

  1. Jesaine Well-Known Member

    I'm in the process of recreating my circle of characters over on Antonia Bayle for various reasons. Now, since I don't want to get to level 20 or so before finding out an Assassin now hits like a screaming little school girl (as an example)...

    Which classes are currently under and over-performing, and in what ways specifically? I'm hoping this list will give other new / returning players and idea of what to roll, AND maybe encourage the devs to rebalance things.
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  2. Arclite Well-Known Member

    All of them.

    There is not a single class that is balanced w.r.t the content and itemisation. The recent bump in flat % increase in mage classes damage shows how little handle they have on this.

    As to why, then peruse the class forums and you will know.
  3. Jesaine Well-Known Member

    The idea was to get a centralized list here for new players, one that would hopefully be harder for the devs to ignore as well. Not every player has the time or inclination to spend hours sorting through the entire forums trying to sort current fact from (occasionally highly biased) opinion.

    This kind of answer is exactly why I gave up on the forums shortly after launch, before they reset the logins so we weren't using our SOE account names.
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  4. Sigrdrifa EQ2 Wiki Author

    "Borked" is really subjective. You have set your parameter too wide. You can solo with all classes. In what specific circumstances are you wanting to know if some classes perform suboptimally?

    Let's also note that a skilled player can even take a "borked" class and play it very well. So this is a moving target.
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  5. Arclite Well-Known Member

    I am afraid you will be fighting a futile battle there. Many have tried to do just that and failed to get the response we were hoping for. Even the beta threads where DEVs create the class forums relatively go unanswered.
  6. Jesaine Well-Known Member

    I can understand the frustration there, but just because it's an uphill fight doesn't mean we should give up.

    More to the point, this thread's primary intention was to help new and returning players know which classes to avoid. I wanted to jump back on my Brawler (for example) but I hear they're now paper tigers compared to Monks.

    Hell, I don't know if this will even help. Sooooo much seems subjective here. Your mention of mages getting a DPS boost for example. Pure mages (less so pet class ones) SHOULD be the highest DPS classes in the game. They were always designed to be glass cannons; lowest defense, highest damage. I'm VERY underwhelmed by my Mages' (all level 20 to 60) performances. Likewise, I've used the "test drive a new level 100 character" option at character create... The Channeler (as one example) was hitting 5x harder than the Wizard I tried there. The rumor I hear is that the highest DPSing character on Antonia Bayle is actually a Defiler. Priests are supposed to be modest DPS utility characters focused on healing. Not nuke monsters.

    Stat inflation in general I'll agree is insane. That 100 channeler hit for 25 million points. 85% of the player base will throw complete tantrums if their characters get ANY kind of nerf to bring things back into balance and the original intent for each class.

    Anyway, sorry for being crabby last reply. "Do a Forums Search" replies are a sore spot for me. When somebody asks a question like "How's X class's DPS", it's because they don't want to invest 20 hours playing before finding out the class never improves, and the forums info is mixed or possibly outdated.
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  7. Obano Well-Known Member

    Bruiser is probably the worst class in the game.

  8. Jesaine Well-Known Member

    I saw your post / thread there. *MY* trouble comes from only having characters at a max of 60 or so, and not having any personal experience to base commentary from.

    What I do see though is that even Monks are griping about nerfs. EVERYBODY is nerfed, broken and underpowered it seems. :confused:

    You mentioned how your Bruiser isn't Tier 1 or Tier 2 DPS anymore... Fighters were never intended to be high DPS though; not originally. DPS is supposed to ideally be on a sliding scale of risk vs reward. That meaning that a properly tanked out Guardian should probably be lowest outright DPS but hardest kill. On the other end of the scale, there's Wizards and Warlocks; minimal armor and defenses, so they SHOULD have the highest DPS in the game.

    If we want to put it into VERY general class terms (and this is how darn near every MMO works), the DPS tiers SHOULD go:

    1) Mages (Ranged DPS, Light Armor)
    2) Scouts (Melee DPS, Medium Armors)
    3) & 4) We can debate between Healers and Tanks

    NOW, with the buff options to focus more on DPS than roles like healing or tanking AND class armor allowances, there's going to be some variation there also. Furies are going to hit harder than Templars because they use lighter armor and have to kill faster.

    Monks and Bruisers were classified as fighters from the get go however. High "evasion" (or whatever the official EQ2 term is) was supposed to make up for lack of heavy armor. FWIW, I never fully understood SOE's rationale there. Regardless, they're no scouts.

    My point to this is how are new players supposed to make heads or tails of the state of the game when everyone is fussing that their character is not Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet? That doesn't take away from the majority of what you wrote in your other post either. It definitely sounds like Bruisers need some defense and buff boosts at the VERY least.
  9. KauaiJim Active Member

    The middle class.

    ... Okay, serious answer -

    I would suggest a new player take the approach of "What class sounds fun / interesting / good to me?" "How do I like to / plan to play? (playstyle)" and go that route instead of just blacklisting a bunch of classes because some folks on a forum say so. I understand what you are trying to do however as Sig points out the classification of "borked" (broken) is very subjective.

    It's funny to hear about the Monk vs Bruiser issue because my son and I (back when he played) used to duo a lot, me with my Monk and him with his Bruiser. His toon was always slightly better than mine in what we could accomplish. Now it sounds like Bruisers are hurting and that actually makes me a bit sad - even though I have a Monk. Same with Assassins... My son and I each had Assassins and they used to be pretty good. Now it sounds like Rangers are better. I have no idea if these statements are true, but it does demonstrate how picking a class because it's great now vs one that needs some love is not a sure thing. Your currently great class today might be the borked class next year. So pick what you like and have fun!

    Also, I know this is the opposite of what you intended OP but if a new player reads this thread and likes to solo I can recommend the four classes in my signature. None of them are "borked". :D
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  10. Obano Well-Known Member

    I agree with all that especially the risk vs reward point on how classes could and should be balanced. But the thing is if Bruisers wear lighter armor than scouts then how is the risk vs reward balanced?

    Historically early in the game's history Bruisers could compete with scouts and were only considered back up tanks. I was able to dig up some old parses courtesy of the WaybackMachine. In the top guild world wide NPU their Bruiser (Sardonis) was able to keep up with the best the scouts had to offer. Bruisers were DPS machines back then. The current year Bruiser has been trash tier ever since they decided to transform them from a DPS class into a sub-par tank. It was a terrible mistake as far as class balance goes.

  11. AOE1 Well-Known Member

    Please tell me exactly who wants to invest their time and find out their class never improves? I sure don't know such a gamer. Your question is not only overly broad but is not even answerable. Many things goes into creating a toon other than just class. As stated any class can solo, just some a little better than others. Not all classes can heal themselves or rez themselves. Does that count in your which class is over performing or under performing? As for getting the dev's attention, they know. The community has been 'getting their attention' in both eq and eq2 for the past 21 1/2 years I have been playing and truth be known, they nerfed them all until they have about destroyed the individuality each class was supposed to have. Good luck in trying to help new players. They create a class, log in and if they don't like it, delete and create a different one. It was that way in 2001 and that way yesterday. You help them more with understanding where to get information they need and where to get various items they need, not by telling them which 'class' they should play. That is a personal decision based on their likes and dislikes.
  12. Jesaine Well-Known Member

    LOL, I was there when tanks and bruisers first were released. THAT was when they were an absolute trash class. Evasion never worked, esp at low levels, we hit like screaming little school girls and our defense was "play dead" which was so lame it couldn't fool a pet rock. Levels 1 thru 10 in particular were a never ending stream of death and respawn. The class in general was sheer misery until you got close to what was end game at the time.

    The armor that you speak of is supposed to be the Monk or Bruiser's ability to dodge attacks as opposed to taking a direct hit and having it absorbed. Something that NO scout class has. I also admitted above that based on the gripes here on the forums by multiple players, that it definitely sounds like the Monk and Bruiser need some buffing there, and maybe a group buff or two. :)

    On your own list there, the Bruiser is right in the middle of the pack, out-damaging a Necromancer, Swashbuckler and Illusionist.

    I think the solution here, since so many people want scouts not tanks, is a new Scout class similar to the monk and brawler. Ninja maybe? :D
  13. Jesaine Well-Known Member

    Almost none of this has anything remotely to do with what I said.

    For starters, I said my goal in asking people to post here was to AVOID having to spend 10 to 20 hours to find out a character has been nerfed into the dirt, NOT promote it.

    Likewise nobody is telling anybody what to play. In my original post I asked people to give the info you mentioned as to why a class is broken. The Assassin, for example. The current round of complaints claim that Assassins can't even keep up with defensive tank builds in terms of DPS and do FAR less than their Ranger sister class. **IF** that's legit, it's something *I* would want to know as a returning player before investing time, effort and a character slot into one.

    Your rant about the devs still listening... I made a comment in an earlier thread over a week ago saying that IF they weren't listening, it's probably because they're worn out by nobody listening to THEM. Judging by the new posts by devs since I have joined the forums, it's pretty clear they are "listening".

    Getting folks info BTW... Ain't happening here. Too much unsubstatiated opinion, or questions being ignored, that's IF a post originator doesn't just get an off the cuff attack instead.
  14. Cusashorn Well-Known Member

    Obanohas been championing for the Bruiser class to actually be viable since... Echoes of Faydwer or so. If anyone knows how the class can be best utilized and get the most out of playing, it's him. However, pretty much all changes ever made to the entire fighter archetype directly counteracts how Bruisers are best at playing. On concept they were just supposed to be "avoidance tank, but take a little more damage in exchange for dishing out a little more damage than monks". In practice, using defensive stance to take advantage of agro generating abilities directly counters the need to use offensives stance to get the most out of generating even more agro from damage.

    something like that. Point is, the devs won't listen to how the class needs to be played, by players who have statistically proven that they must be played this way-- and not the way the devs actually think.
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  15. Jesaine Well-Known Member

    I was simply pointing out that he wants a DPS class and both are SUPPOSED to be tank classes.

    The fact that that they've been broken for ages as a tank is another story completely. None the less, the devs aren't going to listen when the request, at least on the surface, seems to be "I want a world class evasion tank that is also top tier in DPS".

    Also why I suggested a Scout / DPS version of the classes, like a Ninja, might be a partial answer beyond trying to unbreak and rebalance both classes.
  16. Mezaka Active Member

    Jesaine -

    I understand the intent behind your request, but I also fear that it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I were to post a warning, for example, that Templars are the absolute lowest damage dealing healers at low levels, and then never post anything positive about the class at higher levels, I would be doing a disservice to the class. People would steer away from the class because of the opinion of one person, and then potentially nothing would ever get fixed. Can they be low damage? Yes, especially starting out - but as you gain levels, AA's, and gear, and learn what each spell and skill do, it is possible to not be the last on the dps list AND still do the job of healing and keeping people alive.

    I've been playing this game long enough to know that certain classes come and go out of favor, and some will be king one expansion, and low in other expansions.

    But I do agree Bruisers could use some love.
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  17. SacDaddy420 Active Member

    obano, i love the thread you pulled up to prove your point from 07.
  18. Jesaine Well-Known Member

    Very fair point overall. IIRC though, it was a player boycott that got assassins past their first mega-nerf months after launch.:D

    Part of your point is also why I believe players have to put in significant time to determine if a character is workable. IMO it takes till level 20 to really see if a character is viable. 1 thru 10, every character stinks (some more than others), and 10 thru 20, you're just starting to get a handle on how they'll function long term. Going from1 to 20 is a definite investment in time.

    Keep in mind also that I'm not asking what's unpopular, only what's mechanically broken.
  19. Avouriel the Ratonga Active Member

    From my experience, the classes that are the most borked are: Bruiser, Paladin, Necromancer, Coercer, The Bards, Templar, Assassin, and The Shamans. But borked classes are the least of EQ2's problems, EQ2 is probably the most problematic antique MMO there is out there. It has so many problems that it's no surprise that the devs have no interest in fixing the game. There hadn't been a good expansion in a decade, abilities and stats are borked beyond belief, unnecessary restrictions, extremely outdated systems/mechanics that aged very, very poorly, frame rate issues, graphical/shadow glitches/bugs, devs that are blatantly incompetent and negligent.. etc.

    They literally have three options either: Scrap EQ2 and remake it, revert EQ2 back to it's 2004-2009 days or make an absolutely almost flawless EQ3.
  20. Jesaine Well-Known Member

    Interesting list. My Paladin on AB (now a whopping level 15, ROFL) hits pretty good. Likewise a Defiler is said to be either the top or close to top DPS on the Antonia Bayle server.

    As far as the Devs not caring... I could buy that moreso back in the SOE days. We're getting a 64 bit engine upgrade next week though (I thought it was out a week or two ago until I reread the notes). That likely will fix half the problems you're mentioning. Outdated systems I hear all the time too, esp as related to the "nightmare" of tab targeting. Point and click with a mouse is supposed to be so superior I guess, lol.