When to cast wards if my group is in red ?

Discussion in 'Priests' started by Radi, Nov 1, 2020.

  1. Radi Member

    If I apply a ward in this case, poorly equipped group will most likely die (hello BT) :(
    If I will constantly spam direct heals, when do I cast the next ward ?

    I don't understand why my equip isn't doing any real good... For me, it's just a lot harder that Inq or Warden heal quite easily. I'm not a raider, but what are real benefits of shamans in instances (heroic or normal) ?
  2. Melkior Well-Known Member


    If your group is low health cast a group heal, either Ancestral Channeling or your normal one. Then check the status of your group ward. If it is intact and has plenty of time left on it, feel free to cast other spells. If it is down, recast it. You can use single targets wards if your group is blowing through the group one, but in many cases due to bleedthrough it will still be up. Also in most zones these days there is a constant AE damage hitting everyone. In this case Totemic Protection with you as the target is also a great way to quickly heal the group.
    Mermut likes this.
  3. Radi Member

    This situation is repeated all the time, I asked about it. There is almost no time when my group is OK and I'm not sure that I have time to throw a group ward. There are DoTs also...

    Once I noticed that my group ward spent less than 30% and the group was already dead.
  4. Melkior Well-Known Member


    Which Shaman are you playing? What is your potency? What amount does your initial group ward hit for? How much health does your group have on average? A lot of players I see running around with 100 million or so health in Big Baddies or other PQs are definitely going to die in some zones. Do you have 100% casting speed? There are a lot of things that affect your ability to heal. I don't have issues solo healing any content on my Mystic, and I know defilers that can do the same so I apologize for all the questions, but I'm just trying to brainstorm things you may be running into. As an example, Totemic Protect like I mentioned earlier runs for 15.8 seconds and has a recast of 60 seconds. Spirit Tap(on the Mystic) does heal and power replenishment for 30 seconds with a five minute recast. These will keep a group with sufficient health up through most trouble spots and allow you to get your ward and heal rotations set up.
  5. Sigrdrifa EQ2 Wiki Author

    When your group is going into the red, you use your group emergency heal, then your group emergency ward, then hopefully you go back to keeping the wards cycling while direct healing your hiney off.

    If you aren't using a custom UI such as DarqUI that includes 5 programmable spells beside each group member's names and "click to cure" icons there also, then you probably should set up macros for your group members for emergency "Oh Crappola!" heals/cures, preceded by /cancel_spellcast so it fires immediately.

    I personally am not adroit enough to manage bleedthrough on my mystic, so that toon is making her living as a crafter only at the moment. My sister, OTOH, is a fab mystic. I asked her yesterday how she manages, and her answer was that she's tearing the stuffing out of her desk chair because of how tight she's got certain anatomical parts clenched while trying to juggle all the heals, wards and cures these days.
    Radi likes this.
  6. Radi Member

    I have a 152K base with 150-200% cast/recast/recovery time.
    I just don't understand whether I should use wards at all if no one actually needs them ?
    I tend to completely stop playing my shamm, because I do not see any of its advantages. It's a shame because I've been playing them for about 8 years.

    EDIT: My group has an average of about 200-250M HP.
  7. Bhayar Well-Known Member

    I haven't played my shaman in a while, so I'll defer to those who play that class consistently and frequently. That said, when I'm on the defiler, I am constantly using my group wards as they come up. I don't wait for the group to get into a red zone with health. I've always considered my wards as a "proactive" shield against damage. My heals are used when I start seeing damage, but foremost, wards are constantly being refreshed during a fight. Heck, it's the first thing I cast on the pull. Then debuffs, etc. The shaman has a lot of advantages and it's been a fun class to play over the years. Best of luck.
    Breanna and Mermut like this.
  8. Mermut Well-Known Member

    Wards are definitely designed to be cast BEFORE damage comes in. Refresh them when they're used up or run out. Don't wait for people to get into the red to heal them.
    Rotate your non-ward heals, especially totemic protection (targetted on YOU), to deal with the bleedthrough damage and try to keep people stable in the green as much as you can.
    Breanna and Sigrdrifa like this.
  9. Melkior Well-Known Member


    Like Mermut and Bhayar just said, your group ward should be up at all times. Cast it before the pull. Refresh it as often as needed. Your group is pretty low health, so preventing damage from landing and healing the bleedthrough is going to be important to keeping everyone alive. This is where a shaman should shine, since other healers may struggle with the group getting 1-shot without wards to protect them. If these are regular people you group with, talk to them about speccing their AA's for more health. Enhanced vigor in the Prestige tree and the health line in the Dragon tree are a few places to start.
    Bhayar, Breanna and Mermut like this.
  10. Radi Member

    Fun ? Yes. Advantages - what advantages ?

    Thank you all for your advice, but I probably won't be playing shaman any time soon - there are more unnecessary difficulties than advantages. Totemic protection is too small and short for group healing :confused:
  11. Bhayar Well-Known Member

    Your call since it's your time and your money. I don't see more disadvantages than other classes, but if you don't see the upside of playing the shaman class after this amount of time, they probably don't exist for you. That said, enjoy whatever it is you do settle on. Life's too short to be on a toon you don't want to play.
    Radi likes this.
  12. Radi Member

    I would say that I don't see any advantages now.
    I used to like this class, but constantly changing healing conditions and the lack of buffs (that an Inque or a Fury has) disappoint me.
    To be honest I also don't understand what the role of shamans is compared to channelers ?
  13. Sigrdrifa EQ2 Wiki Author

    Shamans have some great DEBUFFS. You basically keep your group ward rolling and direct heal everything else with bleedthrough. I personally have problems coping with bleedthrough, but I have been playing with some fab shaman who manage quite well.

    I just hate that the whole way you play a shaman changed, and I am pretty sure it was an unecessary change. My suspicion is that people whined about the "heal parse", since shaman were always on top before bleedthrough. The ACT "heal parse" has nothing to do with how effective the various healers were during a fight: Wards got used up first, so they generated "bug numbers". But some people need to measure their wedding tackle, so whining happened. IMHO, looking at the number of CURES in ACT is much more revealing as to which healers are slacking or not (if the mages out-cure a healer, that's not usually a good sign!)
    Breanna likes this.
  14. Bhayar Well-Known Member

    Sig, I totally agree with your assessment about healing and the need for ACT to measure cures. That said, I fell out of my chair laughing at your phrase "...but some people need to measure their wedding tackle, so whining happened." Thanks for making my day.
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  15. Revanu Well-Known Member

    Yea it’s super unfortunate how vastly superior at healing defilers are or the insane group buffs mystics provide as well as being incredibly strong if you know what you’re doing. What a unfortunate scenario indeed
    Breanna likes this.
  16. Radi Member

    I believe that it is simply impossible to assess how well a certain "hypothetical Defiler" healed a instance without regard of equipment of his group and himself, as well as DPS of this group.
    As for heal parse into ACT... I don't pay any attention to him.

    What GREAT debuffs does the shaman have ? And in general, what is the position of classes that use strong debuffs ? Brigand for example.

    BL can outparse shamans in group healing, I've seen this. And almost always - other healers classes.

    I'm going to levelling Templar and Channeler and see how much more effective they are.
    In any case, thank you all for your advice, maybe I'll try to think over my healing process again.
  17. Bhayar Well-Known Member

    The shaman class includes two different types: defiler and mystic. I'd recommend if you want to see debuffs, look up the defiler. As for your question, "...what is the position of classes that use strong debuffs," I'm not clear on the context you're using for "position?" Position is used in a number of different ways.

    Curing and healing are two very different things in my book. If a mage is out curing a healer, there is indeed something amiss, except for when the script calls for a mage to cure to the exclusion of the healer. I have a defiler and a BL and if my BL is out healing the shaman, then the shaman is either dead a lot or has low levels of spells that heal, haha. If I'm in spiritual I do fine, but a good defiler will still out parse me as I suspect any solid healer would.

    It can be very difficult to compare class to class on a general basis, because gearing, level of spells and most importantly, the brains and fingers behind the class have a lot to do with how well the toon performs. I had the privilege of playing with a warden who made mages cry when the fight was done. The guy was a phenomenal player. We've all seen them.

    Templar and channeler are solid healers as well. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. Have fun!!
  18. Mercychalice Well-Known Member

    Think of wards like Jedi shields. The absorb damage that comes in before most other heals take place, therefore will get eaten up quickly. They changed the way they worked a while ago, so they don't stack anymore. So you're going to have to maintain an eye on them constantly. Just keep them rolling. Ward, spell spell, ward spell spell. You'll get the hang of it. If your group is in the red, you might consider some emergencies at that point. Shamans, unfortunately, do not handle pulse damage well.
    Breanna likes this.
  19. Agarth Member

    - The problem with wards is the soft capping after 1 billion.
    - Players HP pools increased a lot over the two last expansions, you can reach 700M+ HP without trying depending on the group and surges are balanced around this.
    - Shamans group wards, the class main healing tools, is shared between the group members 1B-1.5B+ is not protecting that much when you are facing 400M+ surges each 2-3s.

    Currently after hitting the 1 billion value, wards ( and heals ) "soft cap" and gain only 1/20 of the normal scaling after that... here's an exemple :

    [IMG]
    I made this testing character very low on potency and fervor on purpose to show the single ward in game value when you reforge out of crit bonus.

    [IMG]

    If this not so well geared character is already affected by the soft cap, imagine how it affect a real raiding character.

    To keep the shaman warding mechanic relevant in the future, the "soft cap" need to be raised above the 1 billion mark. ( especially for the group ward that suffer a ton from this situation )


    P.S : Some will say that you can reduce the heals/wards to not hit the "soft cap" with a stronger version of the Chaotic Leech debuff. If you reduce the heals/ward values and the players HP pools stay the same, it wont work at all... it will be even worse..
    For this to work, Chaotic Leech need to decrease the players HP pools inside the zones. ( and the surges to be properly adjusted to it )
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  20. Mermut Well-Known Member

    As evidenced by beta for the new Sol Ro raid zone... chaotic leech was originally so strong group wards that hit for 1.1b in current raid zones are hitting for 276m in Sol's Eye. That was a reduction of 3/4 and less than a single tick of damage on a single person for the entire group ward.
    Breanna likes this.