I am only a level 20 Dirge right now but I'm not sure if I want to keep leveling. It seems like Dirges only have to put up their songs before battle, not during. To me this ruins the whole purpose of a bard class. I don't want to just put up some songs then auto attack and hit a couple debuffs. I would like to actually play music during the battle. So in later levels do Dirges have a wide variety of songs to choose from and attacks that are more bard like? And please don't say "Maybe playing a Bard isn't for you." Because actually I think it is too much for me that I am wanting a real bard class, not some pre-fight buffer.
I think you're looking for the EQ1 bard. That game you had to hit a new song every 3 seconds...every single 3 seconds.....for the rest of your life.
[p]There's nothing particularly musical about button-mashing in any form, I'm afraid. Well, it can get a bit rhythmic, but given refresh timers and the somewhat chaotic nature of my hotbars, it's more like a composition by a music-theory grad student circa. 2007 scored for violin, trombone, tympani, concertina, and Waring three-speed blender than it is Chopin. [/p][p]That being said, combat in Dirgeville is busy and highly tactical. We have the general debuff songs, which are bardlike in that they affect the entire audience, er, enemy group much the same as the losing entrant in a junior-high Battle of the Bands. There's really not a moment that you're just sitting there waiting for something to happen like the triangle-player in a symphony orchestra. We have specialized debuffs, sometimes combined with attacks, which have to be done in the right order and in the right way to maximize the impact. It's a lot like making any set-list. If you put the ballad about the heroic dwarven defense of Stormhold against the undead legions right after the madrigal about the Koada-dal paladin and the lady troll, it falls flat as a long-dead flounder. Turn 'em around and the audience screams, shouts, and throws underwear at the stage, though that last bit isn't a plus in most of the places I play. the management takes the Hazmat fees out of my tips. Same thing with our songs, give or take an Iksar jockstrap. [/p][p]What, exactly, were you hoping for, my dear? It's not clear to me what you'd consider musical and bard-like. [/p][p]Whysprr[/p]
At level 65 you will have TWO short term songs, one a buff one a health transfer. By 58 you will have all of your CAs/Attack Spells. By 52 you will have 8 group buffs(that take a con slot) and 1 self buff(also con taking). By 35 you will have 4 group debuffs to choose from, and somewhere between 51-70 the 4th becomes usless. By 54 you will have 2 Rezes To say 'BARD LIKE' is hard in EQ2 but lets use the term Dirge Like or Dirgyness, to me anyway Dirges spit anger and disease overtime. By 58 you will have 1 melee DOT attack, 1 timebomb (lanets), 1 AOE DOT Timebomb, and 1 stealth back-stab DOT Timebomb. In addation several of our attacks have a short term debuff to go with them, which do that some strategy to use propperly at the right time. Now the bad news, of the 9 Buffs we get that take a con slot, they were created by Ron Poppille You just SET IT AND FORGET IT!!!!!! I think there is a split on that issuess wether the buffs should all be Set and Forget or if we need more powerfull short term buffs so that we are more active. Well there ya go for more info on our instanty please /join guk.dirges Quick edit to say I've always found my dirge to be fun, which hed have to be seeing as its my only real toon.
[size="x-small"]WAYYYYYY OFF TOPIC[/size] Whysprr@Kithicor wrote: Wait so my mad phat skillz wit da drum machine aint musikal? DISCLAIMER----- I do not nor have I ever owned, used, or seen upclose a drum machine. Also using one makes you have even less talent then Mr. Starsky showed when playing Being For the Benifit of Mr. Kite
Well I guess I mean more like the FFXI bard. I don't mean I want to actually participate in the compositions of the music, rather I want to be active doing "bard stuff" while in combat. But I do understand that the Bard is a hybrid class and not just made for songs. I just don't think the Dirge really fits into a Bard role. Actually the Dirge doesn't really fit the lore of a Dirge at all. A dirge shouldn't be "buffing its allies" since it is about mourning and sadness. It would be more logical for them to have songs like when your party members receive damage they have counter damage or receive some hp/power back. The combat rez spell does fit the Dirge nicely although. To me it is just SoE's sad attempt at distinguishing Dirges from Troubadours. Any class can debuff, but a debuff for a Dirge should not be from a CA. I don't know if that made any sense. I just think I am too much of a bard lover for this class.
I would say there is quite a bit of rhythm to our CA timers, most are 10s and 20s (and our HO timer at 5s is huge) so I mean you can work them into different combinations to get the maximum use out of them (and be clicking each shortly after refreshing). I mean there isn't much to the music of a bard other then pre-fight buffing and the 58 ancient teaching is an in fight buff, but without much experience playing other classes the Dirge does seem like a very rhythmic character (though I admit I haven't played much of other classes to say that they dont share this trait, it may just be inherent to how sony chose to set up all classes reuse timers). Anyway yea the implementation of the bard classes in this game isn't all that similar to how they work in other games, for better or worse. I personally enjoy playing the eq2 dirge.
Findical wrote: Actually, the debuffs and such are not Combat Arts, they are songs (spells). They are not listed in the CA section, they are in the spells section. When you use them, you see your char singing, or playing an instrument. I think the Dirges are pretty awesome, and their songs and CA's do reflect a Dirgish attitude.
Aelestar@Lucan DLere wrote: Or maybe the dirge in EQ2 is more a buffbot than a bard? Seriously there's no music creation, no instruments, the "Set It and Forget It" quote was right on the money. Even the animations are kind of lame when I think back to seeing my EQ1 bard friends running around playing flutes, drums, lutes and horns. I suppose I could spam my Dirge's buffs to see instruments... I also remember bards, from other genre, having all kinds of odd/fun abilities, not so much here.
[p]A lot of us thoughtful, tactical types really grind our teeth at the term 'buffbot'. The fact that you can get modest benefit from a dirge in 'bot mode doesn't mean that that's the way to get real contribution from one. I bet you could call a wizard a 'dpsbot' if you were willing to macro the two biggest nukes and throw 'em once per battle. [/p][p]I'd certainly prefer more interesting animations. I don't buy the 'dirges shouldn't buff' notion, there are all sorts of historical / fictional cultures and groups that take inspiration from basically grim, downer material; think the Spartans, or the Rohirrim at the battle of the Pelennor fields shouting 'Death!' as they rode to battle after the fall of Theoden. War isn't pretty or sweet or nice or even glorious, it's dirty and bloody and horrible. The soldiers in Vietnam, to all accounts, didn't go for the Beach Boys when they rode into combat. [/p][p]What sort of thing would you like to see? What would actually be 'bard-like' in your opinion? Specifically, not in vague terms, and pretend we haven't played whatever game you're comparing EQ2 to, because I certainly haven't. [/p][p]Whysprr[/p]
Not to re-iterate what Whysp said above, but the amount you play or the amount of actions that you do during battle is completely up to you. Any class can be a buff/dps bot really. Personally, when I play my dirge, I am probably one of the busiest toons in an entire raid, because I am trying to maximise my dps, provide all the unique abilities, and help everyone else out. I don't get to rest my dirge unless I run out of power, which never really happens. We have our problems and issues, and we have been largely ignored, but you shouldn't come into the forums after only playing up to lvl 20 or so and say that EQ2 dirges are not bards and are buffbots, as that appears to be pretty premature.
Hmm looks like I hit a string with a certain few of you. Well in my idea of what a bard is, if it really matters, cannot be explained through EQ2 terms. Nothing against this game, I just do not think it has certain elements that can truly make a bard a bard. Like no morale, no courage/stamina bar, things of that sort which could make a class like a troub useful in a bardlike way. One thing that humiliates any bard class is the lack of equiptable instruments. Now you could just use the excuse of bards being poets, but even in that case you would have to role play to make that case true. I do not think players should be forced to pretend that they are playing a bard. 3 second cast timers repeated until your conc bar is used up isn't quite different then any other buffing class. On my defiler I buff the group, buff me, then buff tank to use 6/6 conc. How is this quite different then a bard other then the fact that bards pretend that their buffs are songs. If the bard had to continue to play the music to keep the buff in effect then it would make a little more sense. I guess I'm just frustrated with mmo cookie cutter classes. You cannot make 24 classes adhere to the basic concepts of auto attack, casting bars, timed attacks, consistent DPS, and power usage. Otherwise you will have 24 classes that really are minor variations of four. In any case on my defiler I am sure to invite a dirge or troub whenever possible. They fill a spot in my groups nicely. *Edit* No one likes to be ignorant, but it would take a lot of my time to play a class 40+ when there is a high chance that I would not enjoy it and reroll. If that is what it takes for me to be able to express my opinion then I truly apologize.
Whysprr@Kithicor wrote: Very true. Just so I'm clear on what 'bot mode' means though. I'm not talking some macro program that basically lets you run on autopilot. Any class can be done that way, as countless farmers/botters have proven. What I mean is, as an EQ2 bard, you can often just go AFK on /fol and people will most likely not notice for quite awhile (more likely to happen in raids than groups). The biggest thing that they might notice is "where's my COB?" or if there's a lot of deaths and you're not rezzing. You really can't do that with most of the other classes. They will notice AFK healers, DPS classes or any MT/ST or DPS tank. I have a good friend who loves bards and it's almost always his first choice of character types to play in P&P and MMO games. He has played a bard in EQ1 and a Troub in EQ2. In EQ1 he was always praised for his mad twisting skills. Best bard twister I ever saw. People loved his twisting and you know they were just buffs but people noticed they were missing because they were not taken for granted. Plus he could do other things a lot better like croud control and even fun little things like mob positioning or FD. His troub in EQ2? Nothing outstanding. He can reach high DPS numbers, for a troub, but they are still pathetic compared to everyone else and rarely make the parse. No one says "oh great job keeping those 5 buffs up!" because they are almost always up. So eventually he backburnered his 70 Troub out of boredom and frustration... months later I did the same with my Dirge. He tried to love his troub but it just never fully felt like a bard to him. To me that's sad. We do contribute to raids and groups and are useful. Just not in a very exciting way and much of it can be done without any effort.
Fromingo wrote: Other then being the tank or maybe off tank for really intense fights, what makes playing another class more exciting? I mean if you play a dps class its the same thing as a bard only the orange number over the mobs head are bigger. If you play a healer the numbers are green and over the MT's head instead of the mobs'. Bard's a strong class that brings alot of utility to the table, they dont parse high, but they serve their role the same as everyone else. Again other then the rare wipe-saving play by a pair of healers or picking up a loose mob as an off tank and successfully saving your raid, there isnt much that stands out to me as being overly exciting about clicking buttons. What's exciting about the game is overcoming challenging encounters and knowing you played your class, whatever it may be, at a high enough level to contribute to that accomplishment.
NOTHING, in ANY new MMO will be able to reach the amount of skill needed to play a bard well in EQ1. Thats just the way it is. the EQ1 bard was unique in many ways. (used to be unique in even more ways). You needed to have skill, patience and discipline to play one well. Nowadays MMO's are more mechanically based. Without game breaking mechanisms. The whiners have won....unique = overpowered /blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa lets ballance the game.
