Ballzz wrote: Rangers better with a bow than any other class. You are talking crazy talk. I always thought it odd that we had no inherit range bonus in our ranged aut0-attack. The only thing that makes us rangers is the fact that our CAs are ranged.
-=Hoss=- wrote: Ya seeing that most of the QQing is STILL your precious Assassins , go troll somewhere else, its what u do best as proven in all your other posts.
If the changes go through how they want there is no clear incentive for melee classes to use their melee auto attack over their bow auto attack. Other than their melee weapons being better than their bow. Maybe convenience, just going with melee because it would be a pain to macro all their melee CA's to /autoattack 2. Not really a problem for rangers I guess. Our myth buff makes it so we can always use a bow better than anyone else given stats are equal, isn't by much though. Just think it should be more of a clear cut bad idea for other melee scouts to opt for ranged AA. If they do end up being perfectly even I guess its fine, just not likely that will happen and people are going to find little loopholes I think. Speaking of which, where is our auto-attack selection option? Or at the very least an automatic switch between ranged and melee auto attack based on range. Too close for ranged, melee auto kicks on. Too far for melee, ranged auto kicks on.
Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote: Xelgad posted this was so that melee and auto attack damage would be equal. SO what rangers will gain is the differance that currently exists in AUTO ATTACK ONLY, 3,4,5,6k ? not that 10-20k differance that you see now on some mobs (from posted parses between the two classes) It will be nice to have the flurry/ae mechanic being able to work with bows and finally haveing the -20% modifier removed. Other than that its the same status quo, and it wasnt meant to be a "fix" for us Rangers, but one to there faulty mechanics.
Neiloch@Kithicor wrote: Sorry Neiloch but Huh? I assume you did not look at Xelgads second post? Xelgad wrote:
Yeah they said the goal is for them to be the same, but if they are so close melee scouts could get some new bow that slightly better than their DW combo, and get better DPS from using their bow. So wanted to some overt incentive for other melee to use melee auto attack other than not wanting to macro out CA's or something. Rangers get a bonus to bow auto attack damage from myth buff, there is no melee equivalent far as I know. So after this, if they are indeed very close to even and balanced, others can use either one and get roughly the same results, while it will be clearly better for rangers to use bows. Really not a problem mechanically I guess, just lame there is only small bonuses and differences, instead of rangers being insanely awesome with bows and being a last resort for attacking at ranged anyone else, regarding ranged auto attack. Even right now fighters can take huge advantage of using bows, and still will be able to after these changes, with only that 20% myth bonus making a difference between us and them for auto attack. Guess I'm saying I wish rangers got a bonus from bows other than our myth buff and more ranged CA's. Be nice if assassins/rogues got innate bonus to DW and say crusaders got a nice bonus just for 2 handed sword DPS. More of a general gripe not entirely specific to these changes. Even if they wanted to make the gaps wider depending on weapon type they would still have to do all this to even it out proper first. anxious to try this stuff out on test.
Neiloch@Kithicor wrote: Yeah, same here Neiloch. Let the hard data speak and away with the speculation. Our feedback should help Xelgad tweak it. Cor
Venez@Permafrost wrote: You and I are not reading the same thread. You should try reading the thread we're actually responding in. Oh but thanks for the recognition on my ranger trolling prowess. It means a lot to me. Ballzz wrote: At the same time, they can introduce a melee weapon penalty for everyone except assassins? Cause Rangers should use bows better than anyone else just like assassins should use melee better. Quit being greedy, you've already got the myth buff, how much better with a bow do you want to be? How about if they just make every bow and every throwing weapon in game ranger only. Will you be happy then? If eof era bow dmg is any indicator, your bow shots are liable to be hitting for 80k each. Some of you rangers seem to think you're entitled to some sort of reparations for 6 months of sucking.
-=Hoss=- wrote: Uhhh..that's not even remotely the same thing but nice analogy! Every melee class uses melee weapons *except* Rangers. Rangers can't stand in melee range and do comparable dmg with melee weapons like an Assassin or Swashy or whatever so why should a tank or Assassin get comparable bow dmg at range? That makes no sense.
Ballzz wrote: Yes they can. In fact, I think you do more dmg if you melee AA versus if you ranged AA. I saw many threads about that when SF launched. If its changed, I missed it. This change should fix that. If you and I were to melee auto attack a dummy now, we'd be doing equal damage unless one of us has suck weapons or better stats. The problem is that if you stay in melee range, you can't use all of your combat arts. All other classes will have the exact same issue, if they stay at range to use the bow auto attack, they can't use most of thier abilities. I don't see an issue.
-=Hoss=- wrote: First of all. I know of no credible Ranger DPS strategy that includes using melee AA over ranged AA. If there is then it's likely some specific or theoretical case that is not used to my knowledge. If there is please point me to it as I would love to read it. Every Ranger DPS thread I have every read has always said to never use melee AA over ranged. My experience confirms that. The fact that melee AA dmg has started approaching bow AA dmg is precisely why the change is needed to increase bow dmg for Rangers but that doesn't mean it should be across the board. Rangers use bows and should excel at that..using it as their primary attack method and have melee as a secondary but inferior option. The reverse of that should be true for melee DPS. Secondly, you are right that a Ranger couldn't stand in melee AA range and do most of their CAs but I don't think the reverse is true for melee DPS. They could stand at the minimum bow range and still use melee CAs (like several mentioned in this thread as a new strategy for melee DPS) which makes my point even more appropriate. There should be *something* in place to make melee DPS opt for melee range and ranged DPS to opt for ranged DPS as their first option..not some classes having perfectly viable options for both.
Even if somehow xelgad balances flurry/aoe auto atk proc rates to be equal on ranged and duel wielding. Melee classes will still duel wield due to the way many raid buffs benefit duel wielding and faster delays on 100% proc rate buffs. The dps gains from VC, COB, stampede, etc is huge on raids. Rangers however should still use ranged simply because of the mythical bonus giving them 20% bonus on ranged. Whether that buff alone will compensate for the damage rangers need I dont know. Rangers may need additional tweaks such as a flurry AA and/or CA adjustments.
I was thinking about that earlier today gungo, with faster weapons they are more likely to exploit percentage based mechanics to their fullest, much more so than slower weapons. Including 100% chance here btw heh. On longer fights they might get closer though. I hope, and am fairly certain, these changes won't close the gap for overall ranger DPS. Like others have stated i'd rather have ranged CA's close the gap and get us caught up. I imagine that will be forthcoming after these changes.
Well I hope to see it on test in the next week or two. If it does not look like a significant improvement in relational DPS ..... my subscription expires on 9/8. So you may not see many more posts. I do wish they would enable those of us challenged for a good group to cross buff one another. Brawlers, Brigands and Rangers get stuck together all the time and we should have buffs that compliment one another at this point IMO. You could add Illy's to that lately. Honestly, at this point even if we got a great fix I am not sure there are populations on Nektulos or in my guild to continue to enjoy playing.
Ballzz wrote: I don't know about ranger strategies. What I'm saying is what I said. right after SF launch (and in beta) rangers were testing on dummies and did the same AA dmg with crappy melee weapons as they did with thier mythical bow. If rangers aren't doing that now, maybe its because the dmg stayed equal and they decided to not change the playstyle they'd become accostmed to, or because they quickly got the wurm tendon which outlcassed the melee weapons signicantly that it wasn't true anymore. As for melee being able to stay in a sweet spot and use ranged AA along with combat arts, I intended to see if that existed last night but forgot. As a ranger, if the spot exists you probably know better than I do. What I remember is that I was not able to do it myself until I got vexthorne (which has a 1m min range). I haven't tried to work in the ranged attacks since I stopped using vex, so I'm not sure if that sweet spot exists for us. Some of these people may have avatar / miragul charms that increase thier melee range. Don't know if that increases range on combat arts or just auto attacks.
=Hoss=- wrote: There were people trying to say that specing sta line for AE auto attack and jousting out to use range CA's worked, the problem was it only worked while using the epic, and only while our AE's were up, it was primarily a strategy on a big AE fight where the mobs would probably die fairly quickly. You could not effectively parse as a ranger by melee auto attacking because while the auto attack damage increase, our crappy CA damage just got worse and worse, since while inside of 2m which is required for melee, the only range attacks that can be triggered are the AE's and sniper shot, assuming epic is equipped. It was quickly thrown out as a viable option, for the same reason that rangers who stood outside of the sweet spot were basically considered rangers, you don't have access to all of your CA's. Feel free to check but the sweet spot exists for all classes. 5m max range on most melee CA's with the exceptions generally having 10m or longer range. You probably haven't seen it since as an assassin, you wouldn't have any reason to primarily use a bow when melee auto attack is so much more beneficial, which this could have the possibility to change. Stick to assassins and mystics, and stop trolling the ranger boards since obviously as you said you don't know a thing about how we are played.
well i hate to say this but smokejumper just posted that alot of the fainfare changes WILL NOT happen until mid october... so that probley includes the ae auto/flurry changes Uncle
Venez@Permafrost wrote: Thanks for the clarification. This is actually what I remembered, but when I typed it it sounded ridiculous, so I backed off and said equal. Either way, proves the point. Seiffil@Permafrost wrote: You need to compare notes with venez. Sounds like I know more about rangers than you. You will not stop me from participating in any thread on these forums that I feel inclined to participte in. But I looked the wyrm tendon up on xanadu (the bow I actually have), and its got a 2m range. So if that's accurate, you're right, unless a mob has messed up hitboxes, the sweet spot should be easy to find. I remembered bows having like 3m or 5m min ranges, but its been a while since I looked at that.
-=Hoss=- wrote: What venez says is true, but for me the issue was more does the auto attack damage I gain counter the CA damage lost from not having access to all of my CA's while being in close enough to melee. There were guys on flames who were suggesting and using it, but it seemed like they were really concentrating more on the AE fights where a lot of mobs died. For me, it just never really worked out. Even with the claws from the JoJo heritage quest I think I could outparse range auto attack on my mythical combined with my makeshift arrows and offensive stance proc. I'd hardly say you know more about rangers though. Bow of the underfoot has a 4m range, but that would still allow you to use a sweet spot on any class, it's just a 1m window as opposed to 3m, which basically means you have less margin for error when trying to find that sweet spot. You would actually need to find a ranged weapon with a minimum range larger then 5m to keep from having access. Vast majority of bows and throwing weapons are around a 2m minimum range though.
