Hey, sorry if this is really dumb / obvious, but yeah I'm new to the EQ lore so I have a lot of newbie questions the more I explore the game. I notice the Druids are a Neutral class, and according to the Wiki they've always been a Neutral class. It's not split Good / Evil like Mystic / Defiler (or Templar / Inquisitor used to be). This seems strange to me. I know in D&D-style lore, Druids are often very "neutral" in the literal sense — they don't care about either side in the conflicts of civilization, only the state of nature, the wild, etc. which is indifferent to the short-lived conflicts of the 'civilized' species. But EQ2 is a little different because "true Neutral" would be like, Haven I think? Not most PC's, who are aligned with either Qeynos (classic Lawful Good, at least on the surface) or Freeport (classic Lawful Evil, more-or-less). And "Evil" in EQ lore seems rather overtly malicious. Like with the other Priests you've got: Inquisitor, which is fairly overtly a ruthless aggressive bastard out to make you suffer Defiler, who is clearly malevolent / malicious in their ways, or at the very least "breaks the rules" of Shamanism as the 'good' see it by enslaving rather than calling — even if they're not "evil" per se, they're much more at home in Freeport for cultural reasons. It makes sense that both originally served Freeport only, because they're both kind of nasty and unwelcome in nicer company. But all of the Druid spells, for both subclasses, seem to deal with replenishment, regrowth, nature, invoking Tunare's name frequently, etc. It seems like a fairly mild-mannered / well-adjusted class with a slight leaning toward "Goodness"; Fury may be more aggressive, but it doesn't contain overtones of malice or cruelty or violation. So both of them seem like an odd mis-match for cruel or malicious races like Dark Elves or Trolls, or Freeport in general. It's weird to imagine a granola-munching nature-worshiping type as merrily going along with destruction, conquest, slaughter, etc. Like, okay, you can imagine a Dark Elf or Troll, etc. being "defective" / "enlightened" (depending on perspective) and abandoning their civilization to go commune with nature or whatever. There's always room for those types in any fantasy race. But, even if they just "don't care" about the differences between Freeport & Qeynos, why do any Druids outright align themselves with Freeport vs. just being totally neutral? How does a Druid benefit from being directly allied with this faction and championing Freeport or Neriak's causes & interests? I can see "Good"-aligned druids making more sense, because Tunare is a good-aligned goddess and the "nice" Elves are such a strong part of the Good faction, so they probably go along because of mutual interests and cultural ties, if nothing else.
The way I see it is like this. Warden - Tends to nature and her allies, nourishes, encourages growth, but also has a concern for balance, so that nature doesn't get so out of hand it becomes the enemy of everything else, and suffers for it. Fury - You cut down a live tree? May beetles eat your eyes while you live. You built a new house, disturbing the habitat of that bird? It's going to burst into flames, preferably with you inside it. You hunted for sport, rather than survival? Well, now /you/ get to be hunted, by bears that are regenerating at a speed that would make trolls jealous, and run at the speed of great cats. Maybe I'll talk some great cats into helping too. If you've made a habit of it, I'll join the hunt myself. Why? Because I love nature, and HATE anything or anyone that messes with it. And as far as 'ethics' go, I've got the same set as a honey badger, and generally the same disposition too. That's the way I look at it.
But why do either of those types care about Freeport, or ally with it? It seems like they'd both much rather go prance around in the wilderness and completely ignore the Qeynos-Freeport / Good-Evil conflict in favor of helping bears find mates or growing hemp or something. And is something like Troll Warden supposed to just be irreconciliably weird, and we just don't talk about it? : p Like he was just the shy, introverted Troll who grew up collecting swamp flowers and being annoyed when other Trolls stepped on snakes and trampled cattails, and now spends his time ensuring the bogs and swamps of Norrath are as fetid and humid as they should be? : p
At least you didn't say that you had the ethics of Honey Boo Boo. Because if you had, I would have been all like: ____________________________________ Back on topic, I remember back in EQ there were Unkempt Druids in addition to the Jaggedpine / Surefall Glade Druids. The Unkempt seem more like what you've described as Furies.
Look at it this way Someone stomps on the daisies Qeynos druid - take those responsible out for a camp in the wild, sing Kum ba yah around the campfire and show them the wonders of nature. Freeport Druid - take those responsible out to a camp in the wild and put them in the campfire, making them part of nature.
Tetrol & Loshal laid out RP reasons pretty well. The "Freeport method" would be frowned upon in the cities like Qeynos. Gameplay wise, because we don't really have a choice. You can either start good or start evil. True neutral really doesn't fully exist in EQ2. Exile is ...an incomplete existence. If you stay in exile you miss out on a lot of storyline quests, you don't have access to some of the conveniences people who have completed their betrayals/remained with their starting cities have access to.
Well I still don't think that makes very much sense, RP-wise. Aligning with Freeport doesn't benefit their nature-crusade at all. If Qeynos doesn't like them dismembering poachers and elaborately stringing the remains through the nearby treeline... who cares? They sleep in bear caves and live off berries and don't wash themselves anyway. Like I can understand a "civilized" class ending up in Freeport as an alternative because their practices don't fit into 'good' society, but I still don't understand what a Druid gets from allying with Freeport. Or for that matter, why Freeport would even care about Druids, if it refuses to accept Conjurors or Mystics for whatever petty reasons. Especially Wardens.
I can't wait to inform my guild's fury she needs to go sleep in a bear cave, eat berries, and cease bathing. That oughta be a fun conversation. Course I might not get a heck of a lotta healing on tomorrow's Cella run... Have you ever delved into the Sword of Shannara series? The Druids within that series are pretty morally grey at times. They use the 'hero' of some of the books in ways that if not outright lying, the truth is certainly far from in the forefront of things. The means in their minds are justified by the end results and if they have to play into a persons weaknesses and sense of obligation, well by golly they will. Now a lot of that sort of thinking would not do well in Qeynos. They aren't so big on deception as a motivator in general. I don't think one must be blood and guts evil to find refuge in Freeport. If your glade or calling is to a savannah like environment and you have no issues with effective>goody two shoes then maybe the Overlord doesn't look so very bad. (Though I'd think Gorowyn would rp wise be a bad choice as it's belching smoke into the air constantly. Probably on par with a windless day in downtown Beijing as far as air quality, I have trouble imagining a Druid there. Neriak is all underground and doesn't scream Druid at all, I highly doubt Cristanos is tree hugging in secret.) And so that leaves New Halas, Kelethin, Thurgadin, and Maj'dul. Two are icy and full of blue dwarves, ones full of happy fae in the tree tops, and the other has people ready to thug it out in the street just because. Kelethin and Qeynos are the most tree huggy, but if you're a surly Druid with people issues, Freeport might be your best bet.
I think the NPCs that insult betray'd wood elves have it on the mark. The trees stopped returning your love, so now you're going to use the power of nature for evil to beg for their attention again by burning crap down Also, @ Ava...There's actually a fairly extensive quest line in Nekutlos Forest from primarily Dark Elves that pertains to the forest. They see it as a source of danger and challenge, while deserving of their respect and care. I suppose it makes sense, since they are just really angry Elves anyways, who love their hate-filled god more than their own Queen sometimes. XD
Oh, that's interesting... So for the Dark Elves, they care for nature because nature is really good at doing horrifying things to people, which earns their respect. Evil Druids allied with Neriak are more about caring for Nektulos and its interests... that sort of thing. I can also see Gorowyn because like other threads have pointed out, that's an 'anything goes' kind of wilderness already. If anything savage Druids would be drawn there. Hmmm... maybe that explains Freeport too. It's less about caring about Freeport itself, and more about that Druid being particularly attached to that region of the world. It's their 'territory', and since they don't really care about short-lived civilization squabbles, they just ally with whoever is protecting the interests of their territory. Or... well, idk. I guess if you think about it enough (possibly more than you really should), you can come up with lots of different angles for how some Druid ended up as part of Freeport's vanguard. Actually — is there an in-game commentary about this? Like how the Rangers are crazy 'Most Dangerous Game' types, the Templars are raving fanatics preaching Lucanism, the Illusionists moved in due to political power shifts, etc. ?
Cool, I had not run that quest series (this game has sooo many quests, that after a year, I still feel like I'm not past the tip of the iceberg), but the psychology of 'this is a dangerous place, thus it's worthy of us' makes a lotta sense. <3 Ava
No no! Freeport Druid take them into the forest, cut a small hole in their abdomen draw out a short length of intestine and nail it to a tree. Then you chase them around and around the tree for 30 minutes .... and they wont stomp on the daisies ever again.
I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that Gorowyn was built into a volcano, which is why there is smoke. All pretty natural, so honestly no reason for a druid to get too bent out of shape about it. One of the traditional "druid" gods (Karana) even has his prophet & altar in Timorous Deep near Gorowyn. Lovestar, you seem to be trying too hard to make EQ2 druids fit your pre-conceived notion of what druids are. First you have to understand the lore of EQ2. In the beginning there were only Qeynos and Freeport. We all started as shipwreck survivors (ship was attacked by drakota) on the Isle of refuge & had to choose which city were were going to travel to. The game starts only ten years or so after the Shattering event which drastically changed the Norrath. There were few choices as to where you were going to go. There are more choices now, but you still have to choose what we'll call a base of operations. Picking your city really has more to do with where you will throw your power if it came to war. And well, Lucan is very powerful and has been more welcoming to creatures that even after the Shattering were not welcome in the good cities (trolls, ogres, dark elves, Iksar for example). So those creatures would be drawn to that alignment regardless of their class. There is nothing saying you HAVE to stay in the city much at all either. I'm rarely in the city with any of my characters to be honest, unless I have business to attend to there (picking up/doing quests, purchases, banking, speaking to the chronomages, city celebrations & holidays). The rest of my time is spend out in the world or in one of my homes crafting. RP is really how you choose play it. There can be all sorts of novel reasons and motivations for why a character would do what they do and live where they live. There's a lot of natural environment to be stewarded around Freeport, Gorowyn & Neriak. Plenty for a druid there to do, without their methods being questioned too heavily. Just because the love nature doesn't mean they don't also love to go to town and have a drink and play cards. Norrathian druids have NEVER been unwashed cave dwellers.
No, I'm new to this game's lore and trying to grasp how it approaches certain RPG concepts by asking questions. Wow, that would have set the tone a lot better. Although I assume that choice only applied to Neutral races? So I guess part of what makes things a little odd now is that the world has had a long time to "settle out" and re-establish itself. Originally it probably made more sense for you to just end up in one of the two cities, because there wasn't anywhere else to really go (yet). It wasn't "I'm a Druid and I love Freeport!" it was "Well I guess I live here now. Also I am a Druid, if anyone cares." That's another interesting point. I forgot that standard RPG "good" cultures tend to be uptight bigoted jerks that alienate the more rough-edged species. : p From what I read I thought EQ1 Druids started in their own special secluded forest-cabin-cave-place, not the city. And also that there was a whole faction of like "feral" Druids causing trouble in the Karanas and aligned (faction-wise) against the "nice" Druids.
well they have good reason in EQ2 heh. Trolls eat anything...living or not. Iksar worship Thule. they live to cause fear in others...usually through brutality. Ogres...still gaining thier intellect back, but designed orm the ground up by Rallos to hurt you...Teir'dal, well..they are the most manipluative, backstabbing, conniving, horrible people..but can still look at you with a perfectly pleasant smile while they are picturing having you tortured as a tribute to Inny. as to the Druids..they are neutral in the sense they more or less only care for the natural world. really a druid of Freeport cares about as much for the Overlord as a bear does for hawk. it's more the enviromental things. they prefer the savanna to the hills and forests. Furies though..you can see the attraction to FP because there, they can cut a bit loose. 'How dare you kick that lion cub! eat lightning bolts!' type. even a Warden, who is more focused on growth, has her dangerous spells and might just enjoy a place where they can more directly punish offenders. if I had to define them, I'd say Qeynos druids are more conservationists, and FP druids are more like eco-terroists. there's a reason the druids in Nek Forest stay out in Nek forest. while their reasoning of 'the forest is deadly and worthy of our respect and care because it tends to kill interlopers so we don't have to' is a good justification, Cristanos would never let them in Neriak proper. that's why they have their stocked Tree fort.
That all makes sense. I guess your character's motivations and history are just a lot more open-ended here. I really like this game's lore, it's got an enormous amount of depth and complexity to it. Most games are very simplistic and superficial and just use the story as a thin / rushed / rail-roaded excuse for gameplay (looking at you WoW.) I wonder why it took me so long to even know about EQ2, and why it's so hard to find a good compendium of info about the story / lore. As far as MMOs go, this game has some of the best lore that no one's ever heard of. : p
I think its more of looking at it from the wrong perspective. It isn't a question of why druids chose to go to either city. It is more of a person who lives in either city has powers that tend towards growth and weather, what kind of instructors can they find? Neither Freeport or Qeynos object to Wardens or Fury. Fury aren't inherently evil, but they tend towards weather magic and causing big things to happen. Storms, lightning, fire. If you don't object to having wizards around why should you object to a priest type that can sort of do the wizard things? Wardens are more growth oriented. Which city doesn't want a guy around that makes the crops grow? Its the other priest types where you can see the character of each city. Lucan and his personal cult would definitely approve of inquisitors and other zealous types (remember: worshiping deities other than Lucan is still illegal in Freeport) (no, I'm serious. that hasn't been officially rescinded). The Temple of Life would tend towards Templars and their more nurturing and healing side. Going to either organization would naturally push you to either of these. Living in Freeport you shouldn't have any problems with the notion of controlling and bullying others to do what you want. So if your a Shaman, why should you show more respect to spirits? If you grew up around a bunch of thugs, your approach to the spirits should be like your approach to the living. Defiler is a spiritual thug. And the same argument for Qeynos and mystics. Mr. Nice Nice can see otherworldly beings and asks them for favors. It never occurs to him to torment them until they obey without question. He avoids the nasty spirits, or confronts them. He would never think about making deals to help that spirit subjugate other spirits so he could gain control over it. He works with the spirits and eventually becomes a champion of the True Spirit...instead of a subjugator.
Ah, the Unkempt Druids. Most of the druids in Norrath come from civilized places. From people who travel and trade with other people. While some of them are trappers and hermits living on the edges of civilization, they share some common bond with other people. The Unkempt Druids are no such people. They come from the woods, they live in those woods and they will die in those woods. They will never know the shelter of a house. They will never see a city. They will never accept outsiders. Even other druids are enemies not to be trusted or welcomed in their woods. They are unclean, they will despoil the Wood and must be driven out. The Unkempt Druids are one with the wood, and the creatures that live in it. When the Unkempt strike the creatures that normally are prey and predator to the druids join them to kill the outsider. The outsider is hated by all in the Unkempt Woods. The druids simply lead the charge against them. There is a tale that says a great spirit that lives in the Unkempt Woods. None know if this is true, as none are welcome there. Once in a while a tale of a druid that is pure of heart and devotion to growth and growth alone is accepted amongst the Unkempt. Those tales inspired other druids to become more like their Unkempt brothers. They gathered together, they gathered scraps that were carried from the Unkept Woods. They patrolled outside of those woods, to prevent outsiders from disturbing their "brothers". Then a druid crept amongst them and told them lies. Spread false rumors and false relics. He took control of these "Unkempt Druids" and turned them away from simply protecting the pure woods and toward striking at civilization. These once civilized druids that turned feral are the Unkempt Druids that once plagued the Karanas. If you make your way to the Obol Plains you can meet an elf that was once welcome amongst the Unkempt Wood.
I still don't think the Mystic thing totally clicks, though. It's a little contradictory. On the one hand, it's like: "Well Mystics don't belong in Freeport because Lucan demands results and Defilers get results faster and more forcefully by not wasting time chatting spirits up & buying them dinner first." Then on the other hand it's like: "Well Wardens are welcome in Freeport because their patient time spent enhancing nature and growing crops and making pandas happy enough to mate is useful for any society." It's like... okay, so this Shaman likes to play King's Court with the spirit of their great-great-great-great-grandfather on Friday nights and have a good ol' cup of tea & a sit down. Then on Saturday morning they go invoke his spirit to help stab a Paladin to death. All's well that ends well. But see Defiler I understand, that's going to get Qeynos all riled up, going all "OMG you can't force that poor Froglok's ancestor's ghost that died in the Siege of Gukta to help you kill 25 rabid squirrels for Groundskeeper Questsalot! IN QEYNOS 'YES MEANS YES' LAWS APPLY TO GHOSTS TOO! BEGONE!" I think this is another of those things where Freeport wouldn't really care about the Good one either way, but Qeynos would so obviously reject the Evil one that the class has to be split anyway. Same as Necro / Conjo. edit btw thanks for the Unkempt details, that's cool ^.^
