What is the soul of the bard? The answer to this question is the whole of the bard and a bard without this answer has no soul. It is the bard’s weapon of choice. With this in hand a bard does not need a blade. With it we are heard from the tallest mountain to the darkest recesses of the ocean. It is our muse, master and servant. I ask again. What is the soul of the bard? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Since the inception of everquest the bard has been known for four things: Our ability to travel Our ability to laugh at most attempts to cast spells on us. Our ability to have virtually no down time due to our high hp/mp regen. And lastly, musical instruments to reinforce our otherwise weak spell effects. It is this last defining trait that I wish to speak upon. But first I will give a short litany of the trials and tribulations of the barding community. The bards of Norath ask; Where is our Selo’s? Why are our buffs so weak? Why are our debuffs mostly unnoted? Our power regeneration is a joke compaired to other classes. Our magical resistances a token gesture at best. Our stats enhancing parts of songs like Lucky break…seven intelligence? Our Area of Effect damage songs…100 damage on the high end of the game? Truly the joke wears thinner then gossamer. But I ask; Where are our Drums and Lutes? To better invigorate our companions. Where are our Horns and Flutes? To make our enemies both painfully aware of our presents and peacefully oblivious. In the olden days a bard would commonly forgo weapons in exchange for his musical instrument for in a group it would be his companions that would do the fighting all the while the bard would command the tempo of the battle. A bard without his instrument had only his voice to give him courage and defense in the battle ahead. For to use any other skill would be a wasted effort for they would be laughably impotent. It is this, the instrument, that defines our class and gives us our identity. We who provide the balm to body and mind should not have a spear on our back. We should have a lute. We who give righteous rage and indomitable spirit to our companions should not have a dagger at our side. We should have a drum. I have read many of the posts and much of the disquiet can be summed up in this one plea and demand. Where is our Identity? There is nothing that we can call our own! For this very fact our niche is small and will remain so, for we the bard have no soul. We are a curiosity and nothing more. So I state plainly for all, it is the instrument that is the soul of the bard, our muse, master and servant. Until the bard regains what it has lost, the “lute of the howlerâ€, our “Nostrolo Tambourine†we will forever be adrift in this world. So I ask you, Bards of Norath, raise up your voices. If ever we bards have used our voices in our defense, let it be now. Cry out for what is lost, “Give us back our souls!†---------------------- Silentchord lvl 31 - Antonia Bayle Message Edited by Hazeroth on 02-20-2005 08:45 PM
When I became a bard in EQ2 the first thing I did was look for a lute or what ever else was available. I found a Maple Lute for sail on the broker and bought it thinking a lute is as good as a weapon in my hands. Imagine my disappointment when I discovered that the Lute had no function and to this day sits in my bank collecting dust. As it is now we bards are a far cry from the Jack-of-all-trades and master of none that we were in the time of EQ1. But even then a bard was an a definite must when going after raid class mobs because our magical resistance buffs were unparalleled and our manna regen buffs and all our other spells reinforces the raid as a whole. Of the scout class we have the least dps, and with the exception of one or two songs like the Clara’s line and the luck line we would be completely overlooked and overwhelmed. The only thing I see that the bards of EQ and the bards of EQ2 have in common is the fact EQ2 bards can still cast on the run...and even then not all of our songs, such as the "Cry" line of songs. As it stands right now the bards of EQ2 have no identity or anything that we can call our own. The thieves have their backstabs, assassin’s they're hellacious damage one hits, and rangers their bow. All the bard has is the simple "music playing animation" that is being used in lieu of the real thing. Nine out of every ten complaints about the bard could be put to rest with the implementing of the musical instrument. Looking at some of the weak stats on a few songs it looks to me that when the song was first envisioned it was with the use of a musical instrument modifier akin to what is used in EQ1. For those of you who haven't played or only passingly familiar with EQ1, the musical instrument modifier, which was unique to the bard class only, worked like this: Stringed Percussion Wind Brass Singing For everything except Singing (except epic weapon and a few other rare items) there is an accompanying musical instrument that would double or triple the effect for that song class. For instance, a simple Lute that you could buy off a merchant had a modifier of around 1.8. Meaning that if you had a Stringed instrument song that provided an extra 10 HP a tick in regen you would get this: 1.8x10=18 HP regen a tick. When you had most instruments, baring the rare weapon instrument types and Primary equipped instrument, you only had that instrument equipped, and nothing else. Think of it as a 2-handed weapon that goes in the secondary Slot. Most songs could be used without the need for the instrument to be equipped but it would be laughably weak compared to the other classes. OH, but when you had a powerful instrument equip the very gods would weep. Imagine a buff that would do about 50 in all resistance that used the percussion class, (equivalent to about 500 resistance in EQ2 I would guess). Now, equip a drum with a 3.8 modifier. Now you had a resistance buff of 190(or 1,900 in EQ2) added on to the over all resistance. Mind you this is end game quality, most people would be happy with a 2.8 mod drum...TDoK, ahhh the good old days. Back in the days of the SoV & RoK expansions of EQ you were considered Uber if you had a 2.2 mod instrument, and a Barding God with the bard epic weapon (1.8 to all instrument types). Case in point, in EQ2 we have our AoE damage songs, HA HA HA. Really what were they thinking? 60 damage, 80 Damage even 120 damage to all mobs of the encounter is a joke. And the manna cost is insane for the damage out put. If they had done the musical instruments that they "looked" to have attempted but never finished, then with a Lute Equipped like in EQ1 double and triple that damage...who cares if you only have the lute equipped you don't need weapons. You're nailing 'em for a possible 600-700 damage a shot or more. Or with our power songs, the second Bria that we get does about 8-9 power a tick once you first get it. Now I do know that it does add up over time and can still pull you bum out of the fire but comparing it to the other classes that have power regen it plainly sub par. But if a bard had an instrument to modify it, then the overall power regen would be worth the fact you have one or no weapons equipped. Any song that looks underpowered, weak and useless are probably songs that had required a musical instrument to power it up when first created...but then they failed to put the musical instruments in the game, making most of the bards songs stuck on weak. Maybe some of the songs that we think are broke, like our stealth songs and such aren't broken, it maybe one of the songs that require a musical instrument to bring the effect fully out. My hope is that one-day bards will be seen with a lute on our backs or a drum, horn or flute at our sides. I personally want to see instruments put in as soon as possible or at the very least have the developers tell us that they are working on it and not to worry. Once we have the instruments we will then have a true identity and something to call our own. I'm not asking to be the uber elite, the power to solo epic mobs nor to implement a wide sweeping game braking addition that has no precedent. All I ask is that the developers of EQ2 do what the developers of EQ1 have already done. Message Edited by Hazeroth on 02-20-200508:37 PM Message Edited by Hazeroth on 02-20-2005 08:37 PM
Well, I for one, will be happy if and when they implement instruments, yet sad at the same time, because I will be forced to use one. See, I pattern my dirge for norse Skald, and I *might* use a drum or horn, but my primary instrument of choice is voice. I chant going into battle, I chant throughout the battle. My foes fear my voice as much as they fear my blade.
Very nice. I envision a Skald in battle using the clashing of his sword and shield to supplement his chant. Drum and shield, all in one.
Ah good so I take it that you have been able to use the Maple Lute, or perhaps you can use the Maple Flute? What? You can't? I'm confused...oh I understand now. Are you refering to the graphical animations? Yes, they are quaint. But if you make that animation a finger wagging display, what do you have left? I substandard caster. Do not get me wrong, I've been playing a bard for years and I love the class. And I can make due with a bard and can solo quite nicely. But a man cannot live on bread and water alone. I care not if they make us weaker if only they give us an identity and our own play style. As is right now we are exceedingly generic. But your complaint about us complaining about not being like the Bard in EQLive? Let me ask you, what is the name of this game and what is the name of its predecessor? Come to think of it, what company makes these games? If you answered Everquest and Everquest 2 and the game being made by Sony Online Entertainment, then I give you credit for not being totally oblivious. Let me use a metaphor. Take a game, like Tetris for example. You are given the job of making a sequel. You deside that the blocks are archaic and need sprucing up. So you make the blocks in to 3D representations of monsters and you think the game mechanics are simplistic at best so you make it so you shoot the monsters. You can call it Tetris 2 all day long but no one is going to belive you. Because now you have a first person shooter. The point is that this is a "sequel." Baring the occational Japanesse cartoon like "Robotech" that each rendition bares only a remote similarity between the stories, or games like Final Fantasy, most sequels at least have some continuity. And where there are classes that the play style hasn't changed much at all from EQLive and EQ2 such as the Warrior or Cleric the same cannot be said about the Bard. The fact that the dirge IS one of the fastest if not the fastest class in the game, I show love to all the Bard classes, and the Troubadour can not say the same. Even the Dirge doesn't get the ability as an inherent trait but as only a pleasant after effect. And as for "standing in the background and beat on a drum" then you have obviously never played a Bard in EQLive, because our instruments WERE our weapons. Message Edited by Hazeroth on 02-26-2005 12:42 AM
No need to be a complete snot. If you like the bard from a different game, go play that game and quit whining already. Sony said for over a year before EQ2 came out it would be a drastically different game. Or actually, whine till your blue in the face, I'll be playing my Dirge and having fun. :smileywink: The soul of your class is what you make of it. Kiku - Dirge of Qeynos
Snot? I was just replying to your tone in kind. I quote; "**I'm not sure what class you're playing**, but I have a drum and a mandolin I play frequently. Also the important thing to remember here is that, **surprise**, this is an entirely different game than the original EQ" The tone of this sentence was condescending with a touch of rudeness. Far be it from me to leave a challenge unanswered. But now that we have said our peace, points been made, and our little diatribes done, let us say that we agree to disagree. But to reiterate my previous post, I love the Barding class and will play most likely no other and have fun doing it. It is because of my affection for the class that I would be remiss if I did not speak out with my preceived troubles with the class. If I have offended you then you have my apologies, and I thank you for your thoughts.
Well yeah, instruments would be cool, but a few problems. 1. No twisting * I say this due to the fact, stopping and starting songs, is an annoyance in EQ2 having to "Click off" a song to refreash it is so utterly [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. * (1)(1)(2)(2)(3)(3)(4)(4) was hard on the hand, but jeeze you could play most songs without using mana, and they actually did something, whoa. 2. No way you can juggle with the amount of time it takes to equip and unequip in combat in EQ2 3. No I'm not advocating adding twisting or juggling to EQ2 4. SOE do us a favor and just fix all of our **** abilities kthx Message Edited by Nobolis on 02-28-2005 06:17 AM
You obivously have no idea what you're talking about, and I will pull the hated, you're only lvl 23 card. When you start to see, songs not scaling, and are underpowered, perhaps then you will see the light. A nice example bria's exalting ballad adapt 1 is 13 tick, holy freaking christ, wait robe of the invoker is 25 and 5 in combat whoa....A chanter can regen power anywhere from 50-90 a tick, yeah ok. We share the same animations as a Troub, with the exception of Rez.... I won't touch the DPS, it makes baby jebus want to cry. You could bot a bard in a raid, cast your one useful debuff, and let the char sit for 10 minutes, what fun. Give it time, you will see why there are so few uber bards running around.
edit - nevermind Being cranky and I hate being cranky. Message Edited by silvercloud on 03-04-2005 12:16 AM
Haze, I agree - to a certain extent. I would like to see instruments - but NOT have to equip them in lieu of my weapons. I played a bard in EQ as well and yes the holding of instruments worked because of the way a bard worked - twisting etc. That's not the case in EQ2 and I would prefer that the instrument went into the ranged slot or something like that and it appeared on my back. Having the instrument equipped in such a manner could bolster certain kinds of songs - so that you would have to choose which instrument you might want to equip in that slot for each kind of fight. But I do not want to lose my ability to dual wield in order to play a song to its best effectiveness. And as a Dirge, my main instrument is my voice anyway. Troubadors I see more closely aligned with their instrument. As for your other comments - yes - we need tuning. Our AOE spells are pitiful and most of our debuffs are hardly noticeable. But - we do make a difference and I am having fun with my dirge. A little love by SOE to fix a few issues would be nice - but all in all I'm pretty satisfied. And no I am not level 50, nor do I give a rats [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about how everyone out DPS us in the "end game". I am a support class. People want me in the group because I make THEM better. (This comment not directed at you - but the inevitable reply someone will make about the fact that I like my Dirge pre-level 50). Andante level 27 Dirge Guk
Quizno & Nobolis, To Nobolis' comment about twisting, I agree that twisting has had it's day. In the old game there was alway a limiting factor on how many songs one could play. In EQ2 there would be no reason to twist because now the limiting factor is now concentration. Due to this new set up it now works quite nicely. Or it would if, as Nobolis said, if clicking off songs wasn't such an anoyance. They should make it so that if you click on an icon of a song (or spell) that is already taking up a concentration spot it'll turn that ability off, and clicking it a second time would recast the song. Also the limiting factor with switching weapons and such (not sure of the exact time but it's around 4 or 5 seconds) I believe had been implemented due mainly to prevent warriors for doing the shield-off weapon shuffle (that was a warrior favorite) and bards juggling musical instruments...that is if they had kept the musical instruments in the game. Quizno, that is a good point and the suggestion about putting the instrument into the ranged slot is a very interesting proposition, with the possabilily of also putting instruments in the activation slot, but I like the ranged slot idea. But on the other hand, the intent of a musical instrument being equipped was to have the added buff/damage modifier both surplant and be superior to the need for two weapons, and if musical instruments were standard in the primary slot the secondary slot would still be good for dual wielded weapons. The comment about Troubadors being more alligned with their instruments got me to thinking. I've seen some comments about people wanting to have a distiguishing trait that would let someone, with out inspecting the character, to be able to tell if that bard is a Troubadour or a Dirge. I would suggest that Dirges have the drum and add a horn animation to their songs. Then have the Troubadour get the lute and add a flute animation. Horns and Drums put to mind a battle field and Lutes and Flutes an inn around a cheery hearth. Also add a change to the dirge and troubadours singing animations. Dirges will stand with their arms straight out and scream at the sky where as the troubadours could get the current singing animations or something similar(right now it looks like their reciting poetry) such as putting in more arm gestures like they're putting on a show. Lastly about your comment about us being a support class. I totally agree, but unfortunately the DPS we do add to a group isn't enough to warrent our addition to a group. If I were given the option to summerize the bard class (as we should be) in one word that one word would be "utility." Where the warrior was the "Tank" the Cleric the "healer" the thief "DPS" the wizard "agro-magnit =-P) the enchanter "crowd-control" and so on and so on, the bards main roll in a group was to be able to play a roll in a group that was not currently represented (all be it a poorer version) or to supliment a class already there. Now, in EQ2, we are a class without a one word summery. Regardless, I agree that we do provide something to a group as opposed to having a spot unfilled in a group and so far at lvl 33 I manage to get the job done while soloing. Silentchord lvl 33, Antonia Bayle Message Edited by Hazeroth on 03-08-2005 08:56 AM
We are support class yes, we support melee dps ok end of the story, as the current state of a Dirge is. You may want to reconsider not caring about DPS endgame when raids only have 12-24 slots
Fortunately I have never really been concerned with raiding. The end game for me often consists of rolling a new character and trying somethng new. Maybe with smaller groups raiding is more fun and I will try it here..but I found raiding to be so boring in EQ Live after attending 3 dragon raids. So much time investment for so little reward and often only a small minority of the raiders getting any benefit from the success. Tell me, do the raids in EQ2 take less than 2 hours to accomplish? That includes forming up, communicating the plan and actually taking on the mob. I don't have the patience to sit and wait for the endless amount of time it seemed to take to get the raid moving in EQ live. Perhaps with 24 the time is greatly reduced?
Are there quests associated with the raid-mobs? If I can at least get the quest-ding then raids could be worth it...otherwise I'm definitely in the roll-a-new-character camp for endgame play
Bards are without question the class that is the hardest to define. I too believe that instruments are essential to the long term health of the Bard class. I would be onboard for instruments serving the same purpose that they did in EQ1, however I would also settle for just a small bonus or even just asthetic value. Fact is, it is painful not to have my weapon, its a big part of our collective class identity. I can see the Dirge not being as "lutecentric" and this would be a great way to distinguish the classes. The Toubs get the froo froo instruments and the Dirges get the boom boom instruments. And the songs and abilities are altered (or not) by each. BUT FOR THE LOVE OF PETE, GIVE US SOMETHING!!!!!
While just skimming through the previous threads i have noticed 1 thing in common, NOT in any of them... Soloing. EQ1, its true, we were jack of all trades. From Lull/Mez to Charm/Dot swarms to hellagood raid buffs. Very few of those features have passed on, its true. Great bards in EQ1 were awesome in Raids and groups; but i found only 5% of the bards on my server could solo properly. Meaning, Dot-kiting mobs with 0 downtime in HoH and PoTactics OR Charm/Dot Swarming in other zones such as PoNightmare, also with virtually 0 downtime (if you were good). Yes, in EQ2 we are great DPS enhancers in groups. We provide some resistances which can be nice (so far i havent found any real need). And our DPS may not be as strong as other Scout classes, but its not to be snickered at. That being said, I'll get to my main point... Soloing. To my knowledge, there are only 2 real hardcore solo classes (possibly others, not 100% sure). These classes being Ranger and Dirge. Rangers do overpower us taking on single mobs (Solo or Group encounters). Dirges on the other hand, have less potency, but can be equally menacing. For example, Daros Doleful Dirge!!!... Snare a group encounter. Asking around, i've found out that Rangers do not get group snares, only single target (once again, im not 100% sure). So lets use it to our advantage. I've soloed from 30-36 no problem, and quite quick. Faster then most groups i have been in. How do i do this you ask. Simple. Im only lvl 36 so I havent had the chance to venture into zones other then EL, Zek, Feerrott. At lvl 30 I was soloing Grove Badgers and Bears (Group^^) in EL. Now, since most my quests are in Zek, I take out things like Vallon Undersmiths (Group of 3) and groups like the wandering Sullon Leiutenant and his 2 Cent buddies (1 normal, 1 ^, 1 ^^... all lvl 37). Ive even taken out Groupx2 with ease. Soul of this class... I would have to say 3 things. Super run speed, Versatility of skills, and my favourite, Soloing. I do totally agree about instruments. There should atleast be a dmg bonus to songs with instruments in the inventory. I was bummed when i made my 3 maple instruments and noticed it was a total waste of time. Like i've stated a couple times, there are some issues i am not 100% sure on. Due to this, dont waste breath flaming those topics. Alternatively, I would like details on topics im not sure on if i AM wrong, helps me understand the other classes better.
