What do we have to give up to get the DPS we WANT sony?

Well if you have not seen it this: http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=43
was just said by MG with reguards to the new combat revamp.

The point of this post is to explain to sony what i think we as bezerkers WANT. Because I know the other 50 thousands posts on the topic were just overlooked by the SOE dev team.

As a bezerker I want to be able to beat mobs with large weapons. * I want to be as deadly with a weapon as is possible* I do not want to be able to assainate or whatever, and I understand from a balance perspective that I can not do as much damage as a DPS scout. But I want to BE a bezker. This means i have to be able to do GOOD DPS ( group 3 from the above link). I want to be a big hulking barbarian that roars taunts, gets cleaved in half by that lion and only lives by the grace of the healer; AND that cleaves the lion in half in one swing. To me bezerkers only real tanking ability should be their pile of hitpoints. I really wish SOE would understand that I do not mind them balancing my class. But I DO NOT want to be the class they are making me.


What I am willing to give up so you will finally give bezerkers the DPS we SHOULD have.

- heavy plate - I am a bezerker, I want to be hit and hit hard to MAKE ME BEZERK. It would also be nice to see our rage trigger at a greater rate the more damage we take in a short period of time. So that a hit for half of my life should almost always trigger rage OR 5 mobs combining to hit me for half my life should trigger rage. But hits for 1-5% of my life.. bah i've had worse wounds from being in bed with my wife

- shield- I am a bezerker, I don't need no stinking shield. I would rather kill you with a HUGE axe or 2 huge axes instead of bothering to protect my body. *as a bezerker I am willing to sacrifice my body IF i can do GREATER damage to my foe*

- bow and arrow-(equitment slot) I am a bezerker, I don't want to hide in the trees shooting sticks at my foe. I want to face him in mortal combat face to face in the open field of battle

-piercing weapons- I am a bezerker, give me AXES, give me MACES.. i don't need a dagger.. or a rapier.. or a spear (unless it has a AXE on it) simply take away the piercing skill.

-Defense buffs- I am a bezerker, give me more haste instead. Give me offensive buffs, give me HP buffs.



This has been my personal opinion on the bezerker subclass, take it as such. If you agree or disagree please post. Yes i am a "tank" class, yes I do want to tank, but not at the expense of my DPS. I'm not here to guard anyone. I am here to go bezerk and KILL things, and without GOOD DPS i can not BE a Bezerker.

Also if you can think of anything else that does not fit with the flavor of a bezerker that we could give up so we can have the DPS we want. Please give an example and tell us why it fits.

I disagree myself. What you have in mind seems to be more the version of the historical beserker as well as the EQ1 variant. We're the more offensively tuned version of a warrior. I would like to be reflected as such (a decent tank with above par DPS as far as fighters go).

In the DPS race coming in middle of the pack just doesn't cut it (which SoE has stated time and time again that is were ALL fighters will end up at best). After the combat revamp we certainly won't be a first pick to fill a DPS slot of a group, so I'd rather be able to tank pretty well.

IMO monks and bruisers will be hit hard by this since they aren't the best tanks and certainly won't be the best at DPS. Being moderately good at a couple things isn't the way to go in an MMO.
Message Edited by Rhaaman on 06-24-2005 01:40 AM

your basically asking them to make us monks give up all the heavy armour so where stuck in light/medium while doing high dmg?

i'd prefer the tanking role i do well in

A slightly edited verse from the great man and true image of what a Zerker should be - Zakk Wylde!
Where I go and where I rise, I couldn't give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] Another kill, another beer, is all that I have planned The cage is broke, the tank is full, it's where the violence rules Drinkin' booze and raisin' hate, hell straight through and through
By the way, the song is called Berserkers and to the OP - I agree 100%

Aye, we are warriors, and so we are tanks .... a very good tanks! that's our role.

I agree with a lot of what Phoenix says, but I disagree with some main points. As a zerker, I think we should be able to use every kind of weapoon and wear every kind of heavy armor. I also believe that every tank should be able to use a bow and arrow. But if they are going to stunt our DPS, then they need to adjust how we tank. A guardian out DPSing a beserker scares me a lot. Guardians and beserkers are two sides of the same coin, but we're the offensive version and guardians are the defensive. Having a guardian capable of out damaging a beserker is just fundamentally wrong. Another thing that has just never made sense to me is why guardians get more hit points. If SOE is going to take away our DPS, they need to realize that berserkers, by definition, should have more stamina and hit points.

I'm concerned about the combat changes from a slightly different perspective. My concern is that we don't seem to be gaining any extra ability in tanking/taking damage. These changes seem to be purely focused on damage dealing potential, which, for an offensive oriented class like us, only means losing utility. Don't get me wrong, I love my Zerker, he is an immensely fun class to play. But sometimes I feel that since only a Guardian can tank the high tier raid mobs (and raiding is the pinnacle of EQ2), I'm just a sub-par Guardian with a little more damage.

I know that sounds like I'm selling the Berserker (well, the Berserker at present) a bit short. We are definitely the second best tanks in the game, and we have wonderful group buffs. But do any of you ever feel like you would give up some of that dps (and come on, it's not THAT great!) for the ability to tank like a Guardian? Hey, if you are reading this and saying "Well maybe you should have rolled a Guardian then!", you have every right to think that. I think that myself sometimes too. But the thing that makes me STOP thinking that is that we are both Warriors. There shouldn't be only -one- class in the game that can tank Vox, Darathar, etc... I think that Berserkers should be able to MT them, just with large negatives to our offense (effectively making us equivalent to a Guardian). Why not? We are from the same Warrior class, can anyone give me a reason as why NOT to have that equivalence? I would be happy for a Guard to buff their offense for the sake of their defense, making them equivalent to Zerkers. Sure, it blurs the lines a bit more between the sub-classes, but so what? If people understand BEFORE they chose to be a Warrior that Warriors are the premier tank class in the game, then they should just deal with the fact that our DPS is low. But what would counter that low DPS is the ability to tank any raid mob in the game. That would make me feel like I play a class that really shines in something.

It seems we are 'almost-Guardians' with more damage. However, with the looming combat changes, we will lose some of that damage. I ask - where does that leave Berserkers then? And furthermore, where does it leave Shadowknights, Monks and Bruisers?

And... I KNOW the OP was talking about Berserkers doing good damage and with some/little tanking ability. But if I was SOE I would say one thing to answer that request - look at the subclass that we are next to - Guardians. We were NEVER going to be a high damage dealing class. Yes, they made us pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] crazy in the early days, and we still can do great dps by finding the right optimisations of weapons and skills despite the nerfs. But let's be really really pragmatic about this - we are grouped with Guards ffs! Our damage will never be that great, but neither will our tanking. THAT'S where the imbalance lies. Why is the Zerker grouped with an SK in Moorgard's 'damage table', when the Zerker and Guard both come from the Warrior class?

The Berserker described in the OP is unfortunately like the monk/bruiser class in EQ2. I don't agree with it, but that's the class it seems you would probably rather play (err, with sharp weapons of course). If you ask me, the Zerker SHOULD be as you described it... but it seems (especially with the upcoming combat changes) that we are merely slightly 2nd rate heavy plate wearing meatshields. For God's sake - a PALADIN tanking better than us? Come ON!

I agree almost to the letter with the OP. If we are going to be significanly different aftre the patch, let it be as less def and more offense. We should leave the tanking upto the gards if we have to. Mond u , im happy with where we r now, but if we are getting the nerf bat, lets not all the sudden play as if we are hitting with a nerf bat...if u get my drift. If we are to be on one end of the spectrum...let it be the dps end at the cost of def!
We are Zerkers! That is wut we do best...kill lotts at a fast pace til we die, or all are d3ead around us. Really, that is the spectrum we need to be towazrds. Let them take away our shields....and some...or all of our def buffs like recless stance and weapon shield. Those 3 items alone would nerf our def capability and make us far less harty than a guard fer tanking....but we still could tank if we were the onlyone around to do it. We really shouldn,t be as good as guards anyway at any lvl.....that is their territory...let them keep it.
I knoe that many of u have built ur identity on ur tanking...as have I...but...if we r getting nerfed.....lets be an increased dps and decreased def...not the other way around...at that poiont...we r USELESS! A SECOND RATE GUARD AT BEST! [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]!

From Sony's guide to characters...
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Berserkers are among the most dangerous warriors, inflicting heavy damage on their foes with their chaotic fighting style.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ok, when I started a melee char, I wanted to hurt things. This line inspired me to choose beserker. Why? Because I wanted to hurt things. Its really simple. I didnt pick a beserker because I wanted to tank mobs. I took a beserker because I wanted to KILL mobs.

On the flip side someone could argue that they said *among the most dangerous WARRIORS*, implying that zerkers did good damage based on the 2 warrior sub classes. You would be grasping, but hey its your own opinion to read incorrectly.

The operating words in that class defining sentence are *inflicting heavy damage*. Im sure the vast majority of people didnt pick zerkers because they thought, "What a great defensive class!", after reading that snip.

Long story short, I wanted to have solid damage output. If I wanted to have the best damage output I would have picked a wizard type. Anything short of nukers, I would read as zerkers coming in not far behind. Maybe one could argue that assassins should be ahead. That actually seems valid. But no way should all of those classes be in front of a class that was supposed to inflict heavy damage.

I can agree with some modifications. I cannot agree with where that list has us.

I would like to see our dps and tanking abilities be based on the use of a shield. If I use a shield then I should be absorbing hits and doing very very little damage. Why? Beacause I am hiding behind a shield! Now if I am strong engough to pick up that "OH MY GOD ITS HUGE" axe and swing it then someone should say "OH MY GOD ITS HUGE" when they see my damage numbers. I am even willing to wear medium armor to accomplish this so I have more mobility and range of motion to do that damage. If they are ready to put Pallys about us in the tanking department I am fine with that but when a little elven bard in his tights and playing his little flute hits harder than me, theres something wrong. Giant Hulking Barbarian swinging a 50 lb axe vs a tiny skinny wood elf bard swinging 2 tiny knives and a guitar. Who do you think should do more damage??

Guys I have to admit I'm just as anxious over these combat changes (and over that DPS tree) as you all are, but I don't think it's worth getting upset at this point until we actually see the whole picture on Test. We've been listening to Scouts and Mages whine about our DPS for weeks and months now, so of course it's only natural to catastrophize about how SOE might mess up the class by destroying our damage potential. That DPS rank tree didn't help much.

However, we don't know what else has changed regarding our class. Like the posters before me have mentioned, maybe they are simply re-invisioning the Berzerker class and making us more hardcore tanks in line with our Guardian brothers. Until we see ALL the changes there is no way to know how this is going to effect us. My advice is just to hold your tempers (what I thing to ask of a zerker ) and be patient until the patch is released on Test. Then if we are nerfed to hell our complaints will be legitimate and we will be able to form logical and informed arguments against the changes.

/rant on

explain to me HOW IN THE HELL does Enchanters and Bards ( the two BIGGEST SUPPORT ARCHTYPES ) get better dps then us in the new combat system?

So whats gonna happen? They have the massive utlility and decent dps to boot? SoE what is going thru your g.d. p.h.u.k.k.i.n minds with this concept? Are you guys getting wasted nightly and saying " Hey!!!! lets redo eq2 like this har har har " or or are yall at SoE getting P.O.D.ed too much any dont have an logic?

I went thru Berserkers in eq1 being garbage ( well that an monks ) now your gonna put me thru this as well ?

What kinda herb are you smoking SoE, because your dopeman is getting payed phatty style .....

/rant off

The new brother to the Guardian is the Palidin. This has been stated before. Our new Brother is the Shadowknight.

Oh great, paired with a scout

Actually the historical berserkers of old Norse used shields, and while they were usually bare chested, you have to remember that only the richest of the norse raiders would even have a chain hauberk. Most of them fought with padding such as skins and furs, maybe thick leather. Many would strip their shirts off and charge into battle, true... but many of the vikings did that who were not berserkers... it was bravado. Remember that those warriors that gleefully ignored their fear and fought with disdain for the risk of death were taken to the halls of Asgard when they were struck down, and would feast with Odin and Thor.
If you read the old sagas and Irish laments, you can see that the berserkers were known for one thing (well, besides being stupid)... a blood rage as they ran into the fray without concern. Their armor and weapons mattered little, only the "Red Rage," probably named from the red haze one sees when over-excited to the point of fury.
They certainly had shields. An old story, I think from Egil's saga, was to actually related to illustrate the hero's cleverness. The hero, faced with a small "gang" of angry berserkers, was confounding them with his wit. The leader, showing his consternation and rage, chewed on the edge of his shield. The hero of the story, on horseback, moved up and kicked the bottom of the chieftain's shield, smashing his face and killing the berserker chief and demoralizing the rest of the "gang"
What I don't understand is why the fuss? I have yet to see anything concrete about any of these changes they are doing. All I hear is "well when we do the rebalancing patch..." but its been that way for months. To me its really starting to sound like the kid that works in the local comic book store, wears his Star Fleet uniform to work, and has been writing an Amazing Novel for the past 4 years. There is no point in getting annoyed until we at least see something concrete on Test.

I'm not a Berserker, but as a Monk, I can sympathize with what's to come, though might not how you would expect.

At least when it comes to you guys, you picked the offensive version of a class (Warrior).

Monks chose a Defensive version of their class, but now it appears we're to be more offensive than an offensive subclass.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'd love to trade spots with you guys in that Tree if I could

That's very true, we DON'T know what else has changed in our class. There are slivers of evidence that Guardians' tanking abilities might be altered (they've been playing with Parry and Defense a lot I think), the only reason I can think of being that they MIGHT be bringing other tanks closer to the ability of Guardian's tanking.

I still don't feel it's justified to pair us with SK's and pair Guards with Pallies... I mean this is my opinion, but classes should be the SAME across citiies. A monk being a defensive version of a Bruiser just doesn't sound right to me. Why should it matter what city you picked? Why should an SK be less defensive than a Paladin? Don't give me this good/evil justification, just because you're 'evil' doesn't mean you should be less defensive.

Which brings me back to what I said first... that they may be bringing tanking 'ability' closer between the sub-classes, which is what *I* want. I accept that we're at the lower end of the tree in DPS because we can tank, hey, fine. But I just don't want to be an 'OK DPS' and 'OK TANK' subclass... that's jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none syndrome.

"Oh great, paired with a scout "

As an sk I laughed at that I really did. I am worried about these changes as well and frankly am not that optimistic about them. I think its really going to hurt all of the fighters in finding groups and being used in raids. The market prices of rares and high end equipment will surge again. Two fighters in a group will be unheard of probaly. Zerkers are already great tanks with the best taunts and aggro management. I hope they dont lower your dps too much (nor mine) as It is what makes our subclasses unique from our counterparts. It is nice to be paired with you here have a beer.

But what do I know...Im a scout j/k

Terrorcon 49 ogre sk of blackburrow

/salute

You get evac right?

I think that not only are rares and high end equipment gonna surge in cost, but so will skill upgrades.. an already insane market.. its going to explode as people go "o crap, I need to upgrade!!"

The biggest thing that comforts me in the changes is I am guaranteed a group in my guild at least... and I think building a reuputation as a good tank is going to be even more essential in the coming days..