We're Nerfed Alot, But Who Here Can Still Rage? Berserker Strat 101

If I may refer you back to the half-dozen times I already said it...

I am talking about ALL PROCS ON YOU.

That means the speed of the flail increases the chance for ALL PROCS on you to fire. That's your flail proc (~250 each), Anarchy (~300 each), Blood Rage (~150 each), the Troubadour buff (~150 each), the Coercer buff (~150 each), etc, etc.

Proccing any one of those each second (very very possible with the RGF) you will get 200dps easily from them. And your estimate of your haste is a little low - you'd have 150%+ in that group (Troubadour, Coercer, ToW, FBSS, Berserk) giving auto-attack at about 1.5sec (i.e. between every combat art).



Edit: But, if you still don't believe it's the speed of the flail which is responsible for the majority of your DPS, go ahead and show a parse at 300dps (in reasonable-duration fight vs ^^) using a <2sec weapon, or even while dual-wielding...
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To further illustrate, I'll use my previous numbers for proc percentages which you seemed okay with:
15.2% chance to proc from the Flail
12.7% chance to proc anarchy
29.1% chance to proc blood rage
10% (e.g.) chance to proc the troubadour buff (don't know the percentage)
10% (e.g.) chance to proc the coercer buff (don't know the percentage)
+ any other procs you might have
you have 0.67 auto-attack swings per second (1.5sec delay with your ~150% haste).
you have 0.67 combat art attacks per second (1.5sec per combat art in a 20sec fight).
this means, art, swing, art, swing, art, swing... easy enough to maintain. Some will miss, but some are multi-attacks/AoE...
thus, your total proc rate (using these rough estimates) is 1 proc per second.
take an average for proc damage at 200 damage (conservative estimate, given 400str and adept3s) - and there's your 200dps from procs alone.
Message Edited by Pin StNeedles on 04-14-2005 07:30 PM

Still doesnt seem to make sense Pin.
If they have "weapon delay adjusted proc" in the game then the SPELL and the ITEM procs should both scale with delay. Now the Flail would have a better chance to proc per swing but OVER TIME they should average out to the same PPM as a faster weap. Hence the dps delta would have NOTHING to do with the proc rate between the Crook and the Flail but be based on something else (I vote the instrinsic proc size).
Now if they only adjusted the weapon proc to scale with delay AND NOT the spells procs; well thats a major design hole (but would have nothing to do with the Flail). But you would have caught one hella bug if this is true (in this case I'd expect the inverse, a faster weap would incur more spell procs).
The only way the Flail is significant to your DPS argument (or DPS x60) is IF it has a higher PPM than the norm. Please dont get frustrated if other people dont agree with you; its not personal :smileyhappy:. You've raised alotta good points.

Pin StNeedles wrote:

Sabin what is your average groups make up? also i want to see at least a 30 min consistent parse with you doing over 300 dps , then i can beleive your claims...... oh the reason why i ask about your average group make up is if you DONT have a heavy nuker in your group then it is totally possible to make 200+ dps ( i still dont know about consistently ) My group almost always has a wizard,warlock and a brusiers so doing 140 dps is awesome for me....

PS they are nerfing Cascading Procs now on weapons as well next patch

Nice post Sabin, your right on target, and I will back you up. In a normal group at 45, I typically range anywhere from about 120-170 DPS depending on how much attention I am giving the game. My normal group is me (45 zerker), a 50 SK, a 49 defiler, a 49 coercer, a 49 bruiser, and some random person. I typically wield either the hiero crook, or dual wield SSoY + SBD. Last night we had a dirge in the group, also level 45. I was SMOKING everyone else. With his dmg bonus I was hitting 220-300 all night long, depending on whether we were doing groups or single targets. This was done in permafrost against all sorts of mobs, all were yellow to me at 45. Frankly, I can't imagine what sort of numbers zerkers were putting up before these nerfs, it must have been insane. For reference all my abilities are adept 1, except for multilate I think.

But to sum it up, Sabin is dead on. We absoluetly rock out the DPS, we have the mitigation and hps of a guardian (as soon as they fix the defense stacking bug). I love being a zerker, and wouldn't give it up for the world.

Prosecution
45th zerker of Permafrost.

I can attest as well, just a few nights ago I was in a full group (troub and fury) I was level 41 and all others were 38, in RV slaying NBs I was hitting 120-200 pretty much every fight (str was 320), so 300-500 at level 50 I can totally see. Granted I have 4 master spells and a lot of adept 3s already. Those saying your dps doesn't match up are missing something, not str stacking, not upgrading spells or weapons enough, etc.

The berserker class is nice and we should be doing the most damage, thats what our whole class is based on, even out dps scouts and wizards as they have other cool traits we don't get. I would like to see more of a hp cost for dps though, for example add or change some spells so they drain 80% mana or hp in one shot and can destroy anything, or are super long re-use timers, sort of like a melee nuke. Sacrificing hp for dps is the essence of the beserker imo, and there doesn't seem to be enough of that.

Just letting you know that wasnt me, i think that may have been Styker that said that, but i will admit i can do 130 - 150 DPS sustianed with dual weild pristine imbued cedar batons duoing with my wifes Templar no problem.

Just like to point out in a post you werent too sure on where 150% haste is acually coming from Sabin. Monks for starters increase your damage output with QP ( Quiote Purity ) by 9 - 12% depending on the quaility level of the spell and no they dont stack, which ever is lowest will be overwritten by the higher one naturally. Just let me make it clear to people who might not understand what the 9 - 12% is acually upgrading, its upgrading your RAW DPS output, meaning take a hit that hits for 100 and add 12% to it, take a hit that hits for 400 and add 12% to it, it all adds up and with close onto 170% hasted this is where the bulk of damage from Berserkers comes from and its RAW DPS not combat arts even though they do supply a huge amount of damage also but no where near the amount of raw DPS you can do because its a constant flow. Coecer's add i think it is 37 - 42% Haste, you have 50% haste from Tides of War, 15% Haste from FBSS, 10% Haste from Screaming Fury and to top it all off you can proc Berserk for a extra 45 - 50% haste ontop of all that. With a group set up like you displayed above with dual weild weps i mentioned i can push out 190 DPS sustained, but thats situational and not constant because i dont get to group with a set up like that often, maybe once or twice a week, and thats mostly raw DPS.

Perfect example i have if i can find it in my mess somewhere is when i spent about 8 hours in CT doing quests and just leveling. Crushing damage ( which is only the batons cause i used those all night, nothing else will come up as crushing, slashing or pericing damage on a parser except for raw DPS which is a result of Auto Attack.) parsed out 460,000 damage alone compared to 20 - 60k for the entire night per combat art that i used which is about 5 maybe 6 total damage combat arts that i use constantly, the higher damage arts coming in at the 60k mark and lower ones around 20k like dot's for example. I play a very conservative style when grouped with people and i pretty much play the same when duoing, these parsers where taken with a 5 person group that were there most of the night with me also. I basically use a combination of constant raw DPS plus Taunts and High damage arts to keep agro. So too keep it simple, no im not a spammer, then stand there for 40 seconds after each fight to replenish my power that i just blew out the window.

The problem with AoE damage is it can fool a parser because the damage is being spread over numerous mobs and its registering as ONE hit to the parser because its a instant effect to all mobs with in a encounter, not a chain effect, this is where alot of people dont understand that AoE damage from a Berserker is just another way at basically controlling agro because when you think about how much life mobs have after lvl 46, the small amount fo damage being done to these mobs is not very significant, unless of course it was something like the old Rampage, then of course it is very significant. Not too mention it also takes 3 - 4 seconds to cast these, which in fact you have just done the same if not more damage to a single target with raw ( Auto Attack damage ) DPS in that 3 - 4 seconds. They are also on like 60 - 90 second recast timers, which means over that 60 - 90 seconds, you have just basically done 5 - 6 times the amount of raw DPS with auto attack waiting for them to repop there reuse timers. This is most noticable when using dual weild weapons for example because with 170% haste your like a mini gun just going nuts. Using two 1.2 second dual weild weps with 170% haste is funny, try it some time, its crazy. You also have a higher critical hit rate naturally.

Melee damage is all about raw DPS, thats why we get self haste arts, same as Scouts, Brawlers and now Guardians also have them. I treat our high damage arts as Taunts, seeing there on long times, they really cant contribute what people think they can DPS wise when you can do more over a 60 second period with just raw DPS alone.
Message Edited by -Aonein- on 04-17-2005 05:09 AM

Pin, I applaud you for your continued effort to make people understand the imbalances

In answer to the original question;
I can still rage just fine thanks. I'm only just over lev 30 on my zerker. And I mostly duo with a guildmate, I have a templar, he has a guardian. And he has a templar, I have a zerker. I notice that his guardian does more damage than me when tanking, but the difference is less than 5 percent over time and he plays a lot more than I do as has a vast amount more upgrades than me. When we bring in more guildies and he and I both go fighters, if he tanks I do more damage than he does when I tank. So really. I'm quite happy with how it all works.

Sabin, I can believe you get the numbers you do and I think some of the people here should just back up, take a long look and realise that just maybe theres a better player showing the way he plays and the results he gets. Personally I'm taking this as a learning experience.

I have a fairly high level wiz, and when my guildmates run parsers theres always a laugh at me breaking 350dps in a fight as noone else is over 200. Sometimes you just find the right combinations and it all comes together. Other times it turns to custard. My mage got retired way back when they nerfed us. Lets hope they don't nerf zerkers the same way.

I am a levl 45 Zerker. I play with a lot of the same people, scouts and casters.
DO NOT give me your DPS when you are main tanking. Give it to me when you are ASSISTING.
I can tell you that Warlocks can easily DPS at level 47-48 for 250 or more WITHOUT TRYING <------
They can EASILY maintain 180 dps at 47 without trying
At 45, I have to REALLY work at it and the most I have hit was around 150ish and I was really dishing it out.
In theory, I can probably hit 190s, 200s if I was main tank.. but is that fair to your scout or caster?
I can pretty much stay DPS wise with most scouts, but no way can I stay in the range of any serious warlock/wizard.
After a long fight against level 50s, you can see my total damage output averaging around 3500ish and theirs is in the 7k RANGE.
Be realistic.
On the otherhand, you can always fall back on tanking
4x zerker

So let me get this straight. You do more dps when maintanking than when you're not? I think I must be missing something here. Generally speaking I can do more damage assisting now then when tanking. Basically this is due to the fact that what you loose when not MT"ing is your chance to counterattack, what you gain is the mob's chance to block attacks being drastically reduced. If I had a choice for dps, I'd assist all day long...no more frenzy missing, flail attacks being blocked, etc.
On an unrelated note, when my computer gets out of the shop, it died , I have some new pictures to post. I think I hit somewhere in the 300+'s with a heirophants crook, and did back to back 500+ dps to some unlucky efreeti's around the bastion (if you want to have some real funny dpsing try killing the groups of 2x 1 ^ efreetis by the basion. You can melt the casters in about in about 2-3 hits, its great!).
And thanks for those posting that we can still rage (the point of this post in the first place). It's great to go out and school girl the rest of the melee classes with Freakazoid like fury.

You know sabin is not bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ting you with 300dps. I can tell you that strait up. I currently use a prismatic 2hs sword and have a sharlian maul (master 55.1 weapon w/ 130proc) and have hit over 300dps. Now i obviously know you guys are in disbeleif. If you have never hit over 250dps as a 50 berserker you are doing something wrong or you gear is not good enough. If you have a troubador, bruiser, shaman, templar, berserker and an enchanter in your group you are easily going to drop over 250dps if you use your attacks. Now I realize not everyone has the ability to get the weapons that me or sabin have but you can easily go out and harvest an ebon to get an ebon imbued 2hs and crank 250dps with np.
Roknor - First 50 Berserker on Steamfont (1/19/05) - Leader of Valiance

Aye, and if you guys want my opinion: Do NOT get a BBC lol. I got that and i used it 1 time on a raid mob and then got my quick 60g's out of it. If you're going to use an ebon, that this point take it to armor or take it to an imbued ebon great sword. My opinion and past experience.

Roknor - First 50 Berserker on Steamfont (1/19/05) - Leader of Valiance

Well I gotta admit that nerfed or no we 'zerkers flat out rock. I came back after a months hiatus, bitter about all the nerfs, and gave my 35 'zerker a final go. At 35 I was tanking Runnyeye with full group - warlock - swashy - wizzard - priest - and pally. One of the group had a DPS parser that consistently put me in second place for highest dps...right behind the warlock. A few battles I actually aced the warlock...but I think that is because the DPS parser gave me credit for others reactive buffs. Now at 41 I am dualing Mace of the Lifebringer and PGT and can solo yellow heroic groups (undercons of course...but still heroics).
Yep...we rock! Oh No!!! Here comes the nerf!

That is right. Are you playin your class right ? If you have 2 good healers, you can leave focus rage up, and also have greater fury up which adds GREATLY to your DPS. Also, if you have a druid in your group and if you are spiked, it will add to your DPS. Learn your class.