and found that : https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?threads/aggro-hate-a-broken-mechanic.504247/page-4 so .. the issues are still the same. The posts are from 2011 about are fighters supposed to dps ? how to hold aggro ? how to do your jobs ? some think fighters should dps, others that when tanking we should be able to hold aggro using tools other than dps. also seeing that SK were again in a great spot. It feels SK are almost always whether useless or OP. also the roles of tanks, and we all want balance but when you look at it, it has always been a mess and won't improve . well just wanted to point out that the discussion : should fighter be able to dps has always been there and not really been answered.
Ah good old 2011 where brawlers was a gimmick and tanks needed to communicate with their healers to have a chance surviving in end game raids.... Thats how I remember it but I cant recall what I ate for breakfast so might not be reliable
This goes even further than 2011, to indeed 2004 when the game was released! Back then Guardians were the king of raid tanking followed by Paladins and Zerkers. Brawlers and SKs were useless back then. Anyone remember a guy called Gaige (may be wrong spelling) and he was a monk fighting the good fight for 3 to 4 years to get monks viable!
yeah I remember though SK going OP in RoK .. I think it was at the same time as WotLK (WoW) released the dread knights. SK changed from Up to OP in no time ^^. now u cannot say brawlers are useless either, but the same issues come back all the time
The original post doesnt go into too much is survability. In todays game you cant simply lump Paladins and SK's together and say they have equal survivability. SK have higher dps at the cost of being one of the worst tanks (if not the worst) for survivabilty and paladins vice versa. Yes SK's can still survive, its just harder and yes Paladins can still DPS its just harder. One issue is that in the end game world of strong characters / groups / raids its harder to witness the benefits of this additional survivability. Take a weak shadowknight, in a weak group and you will certainly start to see why a more defensively minded tank is preferred in many cases. I can foresee a time where SK's struggle to survive vs the hardest hitting raid mobs, where Guardians, Paladins, Monks are likely to fair much better. Where that leaves bruisers I do not know. Ive never played one, perhaps the one button nuke was actually intended for them, which would have probably made a lot more sense.
the question asked was a lot about aggro management, not survivability. Like should tanks dps to hold aggro ? or should they have other tools ? (sure you still need to put out dps, but is it the main tool ?) the discussion is always here, there's always the ones who think that the tank should be the immovable object that builds full survivability other max out their dps. also there is the question of the tank play style and what is asked. normally palies and guards had less dps but great aggro tools, while brawlers relied on DPS to keep aggro because they have less tools. but now, it's all messed up but there are still some who want to build dps and some who think it's not the tank's job. (and also that now doing dps as tank comes to build as a caster) it's still an interesting topic and also a topic that divides people. (even though right now if u don't build dps u may struggle to keep aggro)
I have been holding on to playing a Bruiser for a while now but there is no reason to do so in PoP. There is simply no reason to do so , can someone provide one? Monks have better defense, offense and better abilities in general. With new levels from 100 to 110, there is no reason to hold on to my old bruiser grandmaster spells, time to switch to a class which is clearly superior. I was always under the impression that Bruiser DPS > Monk DPS, but not in POP.
Nah man, once RoK came out (Nov2007) and bruisers got their mythical they were secretly the best tanks in the game imo. In SF they 100% were the best tanks in the game with SKs being a close second. Bruisers just refused to die.
I disagree, bruisers were very good yes but monks have always been above Bruiser in survivability, especially after mythicals were introduced. As far as SF xpac goes zerkers were top tank and unstoppable borderline unkillable. The only time where brawlers weren't very capable as tanks imo were at launch through DoF. Most like to argue that they were garbage in KoS as well but i topped the parses while also being the MT through all of KoS as a monk in a top guild. Bruisers only ever slightly had an edge vs magic damage and AoE damage/hate but a well played monk could hold there own there as well.
Not a chance. Bruisers essentially wore chain armor because of their original mythical (flat 10% bonus physical mit plus unyielding resolve) and their TSO AA Hardened Skin. That mitigation AA was disgustingly good back then. Their survivability was slightly above monks in late RoK and ahead by a vast margin in TSO and SF. You are/were a monk so it's hard to avoid the assumption that you may have a certain level of bias here. Bruisers had just as many death prevents, mitigated more physical damage, had more ways of stopping magic damage, and neither class had high enough dps to write home about. They had ALL of the tools. There was no reason to play a monk back then and our monk MT reminded us regularly. TSO went Bruiser > SK > everything else and SF went Bruiser > everything else.
My experience of the community is that noone is biased towards their own class.... That said hope they nerf DF soon so I can go back on hating on how owerpowered zerkers been the last 3 years. DAMN YOU ZERKERS!!!
Bruisers were always less played. So less info. In RoK our guild had a monk a guardian and zerk so no need of bruiser. This means no knowledge of the class abilities. I was just allowed 1 raid back then on bruiser (to get mythical) Sometimes classes are just secretly OP
Bruisers were actually close to unplayable in TSO because of a little thing called strikethrough. They were made of paper and the AAs actually gave them less mit than what monks got out of their epic, Not to mention mobs had upwards of 50% strikethrough on raids and defensive stance didn't give strikethrough immunity back then, You were going to get hit just as much as any other tank and take far more damage doing so. TSO was also a time before weapon skill adornments were a thing so if you thought mobs having strikethrough was bad... Oh lord try playing a class without it or weapon skills in TSO, You had 60% hitrate in Offense stance and low 30s in defensive, So in addition to not being able to mitigate damage you also couldn't get aggro for beans because you couldn't hit the mob with anything. SF gave us the ability to get 200+ weapon skill from white adornments which was a godsend. As for RoK the content was pretty easy but the best use for bruisers was clicking portals or statues Could keep yourself alive with mend and stoneskins and break fear if the mobs statue click and AE happened to overlap. Sentinel's Fate bruisers became pretty OP but I wouldn't call them the best because their AE ability in raids left something to be desired but their true position? Off/support tank. A bruiser could give every survival tool they had to another tank or even player. By using avoid temps you could give that player insane avoidance, You could mitigate any magic or physical attack with inner focus/stone deaf and a 100% intercede. You also had Mantis Star debuffing about 6% damage off a mobs ability to AE and back when STA debuffs were broken a maxed out mantis star debuffed a mob/adds HP by 11%. Now I haven't played seriously in two years but bruisers still retain that fun and awesome support tank role but everything they got from reading into it seems awful to the 100th degree, Myth abilities and focuses are horrible beyond belief but I imagine because there isn't a bruiser left playing the game to bring the issues up to developers. A defensive temp that if you move it dispels itself? Holy crap useless. I believe a monk cloak effect also now gives the group the monk is in their insane elemental ward effect while I saw the bruiser one is a pitiful buff to a really outdated AoE ability.
especially when monks fought so long to remove the root on their mit temp it's a good temp though. Just too had to use. if not moving, would have prefered shorter duration, sorter reuse. Or that the reuse is shortened if the stance was cancelled. Though It feels too hard right now for them. What surprised me too (but that's a general feeling from KA myth buffs) .. no animation while casting the buff. No special effects. Perfect form of monks could have had an amazing special effect, u could imagine monks becoming a being made of light or I don't know .. but no. Nothing. void strike of bruisers could also have a great effect (and I love void strike) added to it. and that .. you can see it on every class. A big lack of visual effects and animations
Up until TSO, most top guilds ran with guardians and MT and Zerk as OT. The notion of palaidns and SKs being seriously looked at during those times was very uncommon unless the guilds did not have that combo for whatever reason. Would have to think hard to recall Monks/bruisers being used as Full time MT/OT back then. TSO was the expansion of crusaders - specifically shadowknights -- took them to another level as tanks. SF/DoV/CoE shuffled the order fair bit as the class specific armor sets were dropped and a more "customisation" aspect of having mix/match armor was added. Some raid encounters clearly benefited one tank class over the other and you started to see Brawlers and Crusaders becoming more played by people. As it stands now, you have high dps tanks, high dps tanks with equally good defensive capability and then you have a defensive tank with little dps. Crusaders take top spot with high dps. Brawlers come in second place. Warriors: Zerks higher dps Guards low dps with defensive stuff that is handy. A lot of people will moan about but guards have so many win buttons and yet none of them have any experience of playing one or have substantive understanding of how mechanics work so that's a moot discussion. As it stands. Have 2 decent Monks in raids and you will be ok.
Pfft, we are the lowest of the tank classes! Monks need a buff so we can compete with the ever leet crusader DPS. #buffmonkdps #monklivesmatter
I dont think you can group good/evil tank classes together and give an accurate rundown of tank dps. From what I have witnessed it has to be something closer to the following: SK > Monk > Zerker > Paladin > Bruiser > Guardian Assuming equal gear and skill.
Defense Zerker > Monk /Guard (Situational) > Bruiser > SK > Paladin Defense Offensive stance (Might change when someone reaches T3 and SK/Zerkers may be affraid of dying again ) SK > Zerker > Guard > Paladin > Monk/Bruiser Would rank Monk higher on dps thou assuming they have elementalist ascension.
