And i think all zerks agree with me. And tbh im not saying it has to be changed to be in there only that it would make just as much sens if it was in the agi tree as it has more avoidance stuff to it. And tbh moste guards and zerks spec for the agi line aswell so i dont really see a problem with it. Your idea for Reversal make sens lurtz. Tbh not sure about your reflexes idea. As it would give guards a HUGE boost in aoe hate. Tbh myself wouldent have a problem with that since both monks and pallys handle aoes ALOT better than a guardian and are just as defensiv. But yeah some might complain. A taunt proc on it might be nice tho.
I spec AGI/STA/INT as a Guradian. The ideas I am working with focus on leaving those 3 lines mostly untouched and modfying STR and WIS lines to give Zerks more choices and Guardians the ability to spec for damage what dubious amounts we have. Now that we have 2 pages worth of posts referencing back is getting hard. I will see about compiling a succinct list for this page of our suggestions. If you are an MT Raiding guardian though I doubt these changes will affect us much we won't spec dps abilities if the defense is needed. I would love to see Endurance and Reversal tweaked of the abilities I directly use. The AGI Dragoon's Avoidence... I have 2 points in it; it's worthless as I am gaining less than .1% contested (usually ignored) avoidance and my points are better spent elsewhere.
Ok starting compiled list of suggestions by what tree they are in. These are just what we have discussed so far. Strength Tree: Executioners Wrath: Seems like we agree on making this CB the debate is 10% for 10 seconds or a higher number like 50% for ONLY the next attack. Weapon Expertise: We haven't discussed this but CC is on all the Fighter trees and leaving this skill means tanks who need CC have options. Executioners Anger: Perhaps should be the 2nd part of the line but is functioning as it is meant to; a hate buff. Executioners Fury: Like all tanks <50% hp abilities are not very useful at all. The points made are to make this a hate-proc reactive or to turn this ability into a 30 second skill that buffs CA damage while active. I think Boli's suggestion is to make it % based while you are under 50% hp relative to the Warriors STR. Exectutioners Fortification: Buffs Fury's bonuses though we haven't said much as to how. Lurtz suggested a small mit increase which the skill already does (almost 30% at rank 8). I suggested it adds 1% CA and Taunt damage/rank for the duration of Fury. AGI Tree: Dragoon Spin: No discussion. Dragoon's Cyclone again no discussion. Dragoon's Avoidence: Dubious benefit. Perhaps a very small dodge chance on it (.25% per rank) now you pick between defense (without a shield) or AE Auto (which zerks have already). Dragoon's Reflexes: Remove the CA break. Leave as is. Add a hate-proc on affected Parries. Note: Potentially swap it with Arena's Enduracne in terms of what tree it is in. Extended Reflexes: AE Taunt usable only while Dragoons is active or add Mutagenic Burst style damage on parries. STA Line: Reversal: Reduce the delay between triggers to 10 seconds. Make it activate on ALL blocks/avoids/parries and reduce values but can Crit. Gladiator's Finesse: no discussion. Gladiator's Revenge: no discussion. Arena Endurance: Add 5% Damage reduction to the Warrior. Make this a proc to make spell cost 0 Power for a duration (10 seconds?) at a proc rate or 1.5-2.2 per min? Just increase the values to relevant amount (X15 the current would possibly net this) Reversal of Fortune: Each point reduces the re-trigger by 2.5 seconds WIS Line: Belly Smash: Remove the "knockdown" requirement. Seasoned Veteran: no discussion Unshakable: Increase the mit. Make the mit % based or make it give low amounts of DR. Stane Mastery: In addition to removing the penalties this increases the stats given from this ability (10%?) Tactical Wisdom: Each rank gives Block% to defense and CB/Potency or Accuracy to Offense. INT Line: Acceleration Strike: no discussion. Slayer's Speed: no discussion. Parry: Same thing back in the AGI line perhaps low dodge chance (.25% per rank). Relentless Assault: no discussion. Slayer's Furor: no disucssion. Final Line: Experienced Insight: no discussion. That was a long post. I will see about putting my own "final changes" into a separate post later.
I hope they leave reflexes alone, mainly because I don't want them changing the recast or the way it works. Not sure what recast is on tsunami and divine aura etc... but reflexes is up quick. Also, I can cast temp buffs, saves, snaps, and do whatever I need to with reflexes up. The only thing I can't do is damage CAs, but auto attack holds aggro fine... and if not, there's always reinforcement, or worse case, dropping reflexes early. The 20 second duration, or whatever it is, is extremely long. I just don't want it nerfed in anyway because he is already in there changing the code and decides... hmm, while I'm already in here.... Being able to cast CAs would be nice, but not worried about it at all. Reversal and wrath I've always thought of as just plain CAs. Wrath is just in my CA rotation and does damage and reversal is a free CA on 30 second recast that I don't have to press. It would be nice if they were better, but at least for guards I don't think it is needed or makes sense to look into boosting the class. I've always thought zerker fixes should be in the zerker trees so they don't effect guards.
I have similar thoughts. I just have been thinking more on how to bring up the dps utility of both classes without overpowering the Guardian. Guards are well balanced currently and tbh I think the CA-break on Dragoons. is hurting Zerks more than Guards. I have had some time to think on this and if I were to be the one doing this here is what I would change. Explanations for why are in Blue. Red lines are ability descriptions. STR line: Executioners Wrath: Damage remains the same add 25% CB to the next CA (so this does not proc on Auto-attacks) Most of us (Warriors) are above the 100% Crit rate and its not hard to get there at low level, this change allows skill to dictate do you want a higher hit or a higher taunt? Executioners Fury: I would make this a 30 second buff and have it just buff CA's and Mitigation as it already does. - +20% combat art damage and +10% mitigation for the duration of Fury. Just changing how the skill works, I would be all for changing this to be the same for Crusaders and Brawlers <50% hp spells. Executioners Fortification: As mentioned this would have to augment Fury. Adding 2.5% Mitigation per point would accomplish this and perhaps 1% CA damage per rank. This augments the end-line to add more mitigation (total of 30% mitigation increase at rank 8 with Fury). It also make the total CA boost at 28% more damage which is a good boost considering this skill would modify BASE damage before CB and Potency are applied. AGI line: Dragoons Avoidence: I like the idea of .25% dodge per rank or 2.5% dodge chance at rank 10, this is the only change I would even consider for the AGI line. Parry and Block (the contested version) are nigh unimportant past level 75. This line benefits Berserkers more now by letting them have a dodge chance while Dual Wielding. STA Line: Arena Endurance: Make this a proc based buff Enduring Spirit. (Change name to Gladiators Endurance). When the Warrior takes damage this ability can trigger 2.0 times a minute and applies Enduring Spirit. This ability last for 10 seconds. While active the Warrior heals for 10% of their stamina on a successful combat art and reduces power costs by 50%. Currently this skills design is to make the Warrior last longer in combat. STA is a good stat to base % heals off to keep the ability reliable for the duration. 10% of ~5000 (were assuming CoE Heroic/Raider gear level) is ~500hp per hit at a rate of ~2 hits a second that's 1000hps for 20 seconds of every 60 seconds. Given Warriors have 70-80K hp that is a small heal amount compared to our incoming damage. I would not recommended making it allow to cast with 0 power that infringes on Chanters Endline "Channeled Focus" Reversal of Fortune: Each rank reduces Reversals trigger delay by 2.5 seconds. At rank 8 this allows a decent amount of threat/hate on blocks/parries/avoids and benefits both classes without giving the ability to couple it with Dragoon's for completely overpowering triggers. Minimum reset is 10 seconds at 8 ranks. WIS Line: Belly Smash: Just remove the Knockdown requirement. CA is fine as is otherwise. Unshakable: Leave as is if you want defense go STA line or modified STR lines. I don't want to pile on a whole load of %Mit to this tree or add any real %DR for the same reason of the Guardian versus Berserker balance. These changes are aimed more at Zerks than Guards. Stance Mastery: Adding 10% to all beneficial while removing penalties. As stands our Stances mean very little compared to other classes. Makes taunts stronger and Zerks more accurate. Guards would only really benefit from the resist buff on the Defense Stance. Tactical Wisdom: Per tank add 1% Block to the defense stance and 1% Accuracy to the offense stance. I decided against my idea of CB/Potency for this line as I figured the STR line is the "dps" line and WIS should only buff/debuff. INT Line: Parry: Same thing as Dragoon's Avoidence .25% Dodge per rank. Coupling this with Avoidence the Warrior has 5% Dodge chance which is very useful for Zerks who don't use block. Blocking is still the Guardians most effective form of avoidence so this wouldn't touch them that much. I do agree that changes to the Warrior tree must be carefully thought out to not accidentally overpower Guardians as currently they are very well balanced in terms of tanking vs tank-dps. I feel my changes listed above aim more to Zerkers and less to Guardians which is what I had intended.
Thinking back now actually On tactical wisdom. 8% mit and 8% accuracy would make this a noticable investment instead of 8% block and 8% accuracy. Currently the ability adds 4% of each. This is minor though tbh they don't need to change it.
Estred, While your ideas here are solid, we're talking about some very old AA lines, and I fear many of the changes you've spec'd while desirable, and not over bearing by themselves, would make these trees far too strong when compaired to the aggregate available to other classes. If we were talking about a global update of these abilities, I could see this level of change happening, but I don't see that happening today. When I look at the warrior AA line, there are really 2 things that continue to jump out at me: 1) The lack of usefulness in the agility line for zerkers 2) Belly Smash being so irrelevant outside of pvp (and even then its a stretch). I will add that I think the value of +parry and + defense AA is largely a waste as well with current mechanics, and that has some bearing on #1 as well. Regarding the agility line for zerkers, I have a very hard time coming up with something to add that doesn't also add alot to guards. I want to think changing the +def to something worth throwing some points in when AE auto does nothing for you is the answer. Perhaps changing this to something benign like unconscious health pool. Perhaps going with something like extra riposte chance when not using a shield. Its a fine line here on how you add something without adding too much. Regarding belly smash, it just needs to work all the time and remove the knock down requirement. While your arguements on many of the other abilities are fair arguements. Like Wrath is very weak in todays game, so are many of the archtype options for many other fighter classes. I'd love it to be 50CB on the next hit, but that seems more powerful than the 3rd tier (the 3rd most desired line) archtype options for other classes as well. Don't get me wrong, to play the class with the changes you've outlined would be fun, I just can't say they're the right changes given how bad many archtype aa's are.
So perhaps all the old AA's are worth looking at for all Classes. My biggest focus was the STR line being so massively weak. I wanted to encourage speccing off the STA tree if you wanted Defense and speccing off Agility if you wanted debuffs and stance buffs. As the trees stand for both Berseker and Guardian the AGI, STA, WIS are pretty much your only options unless you want to sick 10-20 AA to reach abilities that are useful. I have had this same feeling on my Crusaders and Brawlers (only one of them sadly made it past lvl 45 before I got tired of it though I am trying a Bruiser again). This feels the same for my Illusionist (who is also lvl 95) and was the same for my 64 Fury before she was deleted. The base class AA all feel weak. Though a comprehensive discussion of all the classes would be a massive undertaking. I think we both agree on many points and would both like to see "some" of the above ideas implemented because yes all together having 5 lines that are completely viable to switch around would unbalance the tanks. All tanks at least would need the options to have their other trees offer different options. In regards to 50% on the next hit that would be a very good thing BUT there is a reason for my suggestion of 25%. As I wrote It cancels the 25% bonus on the next CA, meaning if say I was to through Dragoon's Reflexes that would persist until I hit my next damaging combat art. Lending 25% to auto-attacks and taunts for the duration of Dragoons. I was thinking of skill synergism much like Dragoon's + Defensive Minded = Cannot be damaged for duration of Dragoons in most situations.
Was rethinking Unshakable in the Wis line. Back when this was introduced 500 Mit was a lot of mitigaitoin (almost a whole armor piece) This hasn't scaled well into CoE. To remain at what it was supposed to be during KoS when a Treasured BP had 450ish mitigation meaning this AA was placed between Solo and Heroic quality gear this means to remain at its power scale in CoE this ability must grant between 92.1 to 101.2 mitigation per rank to continue to provide the effect. This also applies for Seasoned Veteran. In KoS this AA granted a substantial boost to dps via the dps-mod stat which now most fighters are over cap on even if they are not in Raid gear. This ability should either be converted to add .3-.5% Critical Bonus per rank or add about 9.2 dps mod per rank netting almost 100dps mod allowing the Warrior to reforge DPS on his armor to whichever stat he chooses thus opening up more customization by the player (and an incentive to buy AoD )
The aim is to bring customization back to the class. I am working on a comprehensive comparison chart of Racial abilities that I would love to see added to bring back racial variance. You can make races have unique abilities without ruining balance. Even the Ogres 10 second stun immunity isn't overpowered anymore. I am working on a system for it and will post it when I get something workable.
The problem is classes are balanced (or at least tried to be balanced) across all their spells and ALL of their AA trees, prestige. Changing one AA tree.. especially a SHARED AA tree is going to cause unforeseen issues. tbh no matter how eloquent your argument these will not be changed until a point when they allow more AA in the KoS tree; where your lack of powerful options in that tree will be addressed. Whilst I agree some aspects would be nice that they tweaked and changed it I'm also a firm believer in a balance between the classes.
I know, I am trying to work on suggestions for the OTHER fighter base-trees from KoS to bring them all up to this level of customization. Just because they are aggregate balanced around an outdated balance tree doesn't mean with some creativity and care you could seek to restore the ability to really choose your Alternate Advancement spec using one tree over another. Tell me right now, why would I ever pick the STR line over say the STA line? Expecting a reasonable trade off of dps to survivability which is what the STR vs STA trees should be. I have a crusader and a brawler so I am working on it, these long posts of comparisons are difficult to organize.
One last change that I can think of. Bind Wound: I feel it should give an HP buff for the duration of Invigoration 50% sounds like a nice buffer against damage on incoming and it falls off fairly quick.
Another update from talking with other raid-fighters. Reversal of Fortune could serv to reduce the trigger-delay on Reversal down to <10 seconds. Given how mechanics scale now the threat/damage component has to trigger more to be noticeable. Reversals base delay should probably start at 10 seconds and be decreased each rank of Reversal of Fortune by .75 seconds maxing out at 4 second delay. This enabled Reversal to trigger often to assist dps and aggro as it should. But limits it from triggering excessively. I think also Reversal would be more useful to Berserkers if it triggered on Parry's and did not actually require a shield to be equipped. It procs MORE with a shield equipped but you do not need one equipped to use the skill.
I am still crunching numbers on what would happen if Reversal was allowed without a shield... the biggest issue i see is if as one person suggested to me. "Remove the delay on Reversal all-together and make it not need a shield" The glaring issue with that though is Dragoons Reflexes is 100% Parry and without a delay that means 100% Reversal. So it must have a delay. I think 10 seconds base is good. For speccing into Reversal of Fortune however it should be lower-able to 5 seconds. I think though overall keeping the shield attached to it is the better route. Re-posted from the "Why play a Guard?" Thread by Sixgauge. This is to keep track of the suggestion I think thus far this is potentially the best outlook for the Reversal skill. Some points in Sixgauges thread though are quite valid such as pretty much Guardians are the HM-Raid tank with their utility which is exactly the kind of targeting tanks need. They must excel at 1 job and be able to do all others with a decent level of skill.
The largest imbalance to Warriors now is Reckless. 2 Classes it has a ridiculous effect to regarding DPS and the other classes it's near useless. A Guard gains less than 10K damage increase from Reckless. Matter of fact our Offensive stance is far better than Reckless due to the skill bonus and accuracy. I often gain as much ore more in Offensive stance than Reckless. It's really the Stances both Offensive and Defensive that could use improvement overall. The bonuses could very well continue to be added via AA on the Warrior tree but those stances right now with Guards have very little effect accept we lose survivability if we leave defensive stance. That is why I never change. The Strength tree with Executioners Fury could add the bonus to offensive stance while Executioners fortification could add the bonus to Defensive stance. Obviously the bonus would have to change from current but that is an idea to increase the value of the stances for warriors. If not then look at changing Executioners Fury to activate any time the Warrior takes more than 25% or 50% damage in 1 hit and last for a set period of time such as 10 secs. Reckless itself needs to be revamped though significantly to allow far greater effect on Warriors or less on the 2 classes that are boosted far beyond intent. The 2nd Largest imbalance is HP's between 2 classes and the others. Once again SK's and Bruisers, that have such a far greater DPS ceiling can very easily spec, adorn, and reforge for maximum HP's without losing significant DPS when compared to the other Warriors. This creates an large gap between those 2 and others when comparing HP's/survivability. HP's and mitigation are in the same equation to determine survivability. If a Class such as Guardians have very high mitigation and lower HP's then the overall survivability is reduced. That is fine comparing to other classes but not to the 2 classes that have far greater DPS with far greater HP's and yet good mitigation due to spells or abilities when a Guardian's DPS is poor while HP's are similar to a Ranger. This really should be resolved. So far I have seen many good ideas in the posts. This is my overall views of the imbalance.
Bumping this. Only the Intelligence line is worth a damn, the rest of the warrior tree is completely outdated. We have self heals that are % based of our max hp yet we have the lowest hp pool of all the tanks. I find this funny and equally frustrating at the same time. Strength Line Executioner's Fury/Fortification - Any tank that is under 50% health for any noticeable time is a dead tank. Executioner's Wrath - The crit chance component to this ability is wasted. Agility Line Dragoon's Cyclone - Completely useless, Zerk myth buff gives 100% AoE auto. Dragoon's Reflexes - I have Gutroar, but thanks. Stamina Line Reversal - The threat amount and damage frequency to Gladiator's Strike is so minimal it makes this ability poor. Arena Endurance - Again the values are so minimal the gains are almost negligible Reversal of Fortune - There seems to be some strange fascination with Zerkers and hate, it's as if the Dev ran out of ideas and randomly started attaching increased Hate generation to all of our abilities (Executioner's Fury/Anger, Reversal, Enhance: Raging Blow, Aggravation, Insolent Cry, Aggressive Nature, Adrenaline Rush, Enhance: Experience Insight...). Do we really need another one? Wisdom Line All bad, the values vs todays content makes this line a complete joke (including the penalties). Overall the Warrior Tree needs a huge overhaul to make the Berserker a desirable class within a raid set-up. Specifically DPS and survivability, we are not balanced compared to our other tank counterparts (unless you factor in instances then yeah, we rock)
