Warlock > Wizard

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Wizard, Jan 31, 2014.

  1. Daray Well-Known Member

    This thread has gone weird.

    First you have to remember that DPS from both sorcerers is highly dependent on the use of overlapped temps against a selection of abilities yielding a series of short-term dps spikes to carry a parse through the entire encounter. Both classes play similarly in this regard, but the primary tools for doing so (FB and FC) aren't entirely balanced. Yes, Xelgad did over-compensate with the FC changes, but, given SOE's history of playing leapfrog with class balance, that's hardly surprising.

    If I had the choice of the two, FC would be the winner hands down:
    - Double+ damage (double cooldown) approach favors burn fights.
    - Double+ damage (double cooldown) approach plays less havoc with juggling/timing/delaying other abilities that the higher frequency of FB forces.
    - With most charms set at a 2 min reuse (Salvo the exception), FC offers the better repeated temp stacking potential (i.e. every FC as opposed to every other FB).
    - Damage exclusions vs all (critable) damage.

    I disagree with the above. If anything, warlocks ought to pull further ahead (over time) due to 2 factors:
    - FB's list of damage exclusions will stunt it [relatively] (e.g. as SDA values continue to get pushed up). FC acting as a multiplier to virtually everything offers far better scaling.
    - As attributes grow, the base crit multiplier (not affected by FC) will form an ever smaller part of the overall crit multiplier, allowing FC to push ever closer to a 1.75 modifier to virtually all damage.

    Regarding FB specifically, I personally do like the fact that it needs a bit of planning and foresight to use well, and would hate to see it dumbed down. FB could, however, use certain changes, e.g.
    - Instant cast/recovery to allow for better temp buff stacking without the wastage this currently entails.
    - Re-evaluating damage exclusions to offer it better future scaling (SDAs, dot ticks, damage procs, MAs, flurry, and manaburn), and then rebalancing the current percentage returns against any changes.

    Anyway, I'm apparently not as concerned as others with the current balance. In an ideal world (and from the perspective of a healthy game) you want all classes to be balanced and for skill to seperate the players ... but, at the same time, I do also find it more rewarding to parse from a class that doesn't have that widely held perception of being the "OP one".

    P.S. Fix left-side prestige (i.e. fix manaburn, replace Blaze).
    Karsa, Plinc, Dyynah and 3 others like this.
  2. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    Warlocks are pretty much at the effective mod cap while at 30k mod. Wizards can still grow pretty steadily until around 50k mod.

    I really am all for some fixes for FB. And I like Daray.

    I think one of the ways it could be made more functional - is a tradeoff that works logically.

    Find a way to make it a little stronger, but lengthen the base reuse to 4min (2min w/ capped reuse)
    The tradeoff would look like a 1:1 tradeoff on paper, but when you factor the efficiency gain (having it line up with Time Warps, charm temps, etc) it would be a decent boost.
    Plinc likes this.
  3. Mystere Member

    I find this aspect of eq2 to be the most despicable part of the game. I find it rewarding to parse well because I play well, less rewarding if my class is perceived to be the OPed one, and even less rewarding if some other class is stomping the rest of the raid because they got OPed because somebody whined on forums for so long. Most of the class abilities in this game are not either/or but gradations of strength; balancing should be relatively easy to achieve. But flavors of the month is apparently the eq2 way. Never mind that people quit because their class sucks. Apparently it's a winning strategy.
  4. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    So with the exception of Daray... the wizards now sound like you're saying the warlocks used to sound, and when I start talking like how wizards used to talk, people get mad? Does not compute.


    Note I actually AM supporting some small wizard fixes. I'm just saying you should be willing to endure times of imbalance. If you're not, you won't last. Odds are you'll have a much much shorter time being "the underclass" than Warlocks had. When Wizards have had a few months where they're just fighting for #2, there was a significant time where Warlocks were the hands down theoretically #6 or #7 behind all other T1s.

    Beyond that, the primary point of this thread was to complain about the strength of warlocks. If you're saying "boost us 10% and reduce warlocks by 10%" you'll make Assassins the strongest class WW. I'm fine with Wizards getting a boost, but when people try to nerf a class that almost died leaving me as one of the last ones fighting to save it... I resent that.

    And you know what? Tons of Warlocks quit. Quit because being really really weak was really really frustrating.

    Yes I'm lecturing the complainers by reminding them of the words of other wizards while warlocks were the underclass, but I'm also supporting a few things along the way to reduce the bitter taste. Just like how warlocks got a very minor fix to Dark Aggravation while we were the underclass. It didn't do more than fix a significant irritation and as a result give us a slight boost to dps, but it helped morale. Took quite a while to get it, but it felt good even though it wasn't big.
  5. Konc3pt Active Member

    Pretty sure everyone knows FC is ridiculous, even warlocks.
    Xillean and Avahlynn like this.
  6. Avahlynn Well-Known Member

    No, you're not trying to reduce bitter taste. You're flat out saying hope wizards don't get any love for three more years.

    Adversity often leaves those it touches with a sense of insight and compassion. Guess it doesn't always though.

    As for.....liking Daray? Er. Ok. That's fine but meaningless to the discussion. He seems like a decent dude to me, I guess, too.

    I'm actually glad warlocks are doing well. I have nothing but love for that. Good on warlocks. I hope they never feel slighted or pendulum smacked again. Wizards need some tweaks. I'm not crying over it, nor will I, like others of my class I rather like doing well when I'm not "that op class".
    Xillean likes this.
  7. Dyynah New Member

    FC is very powerful now, but saying that warlocks have been **** for a long time is a huge
    exaggeration, unless you mean back when dots couldn't double and there was no FC (100% sda).

    I'd even say that warlocks were more powerful than wizards before the changes to wiz right-side prestige.
    Even so powerful that they were up there with beastlords when they were first introduced.

    Insta cast FB and no recovery would be very welcome though, along with the removal of recovery
    from charms....... hopefully.
  8. SacDaddy420 Active Member

    I'll just say it. FB should hit for base 50% of the damage it records. Lets get this done people.

    Le Clown likes this.
  9. Wizard Member

    Nice to see Aniathor's thread finally got a response from the developers. Let's keep this one alive, hopefully some positive changes will come from it too.
  10. Voxom Member

    Only reason I'm a warlock atm is because of the FC imbalance atm, and my guild really needs that extra bit of dps. A little boost to Wizard like this to make them more equivalent I would go back Wizard in a heartbeat. I just like the class so much better :/
  11. Zelox Active Member

  12. Livejazz Well-Known Member

    I snipped the rest, because I didn't think it supported this absurd argument at all. I'm sorry, but I don't see any way this claim can be supported. It's nothing more than special pleading illogica.

    If you're "intellectually in favor of class balance" than the above sentences should never have come out of your keyboard, regardless of the rest of the context.

    FWIW, I agree with Sac.
    Avahlynn likes this.
  13. Wizard Member

    How noble of you sir to step up and switch to the easier over powered class to save your guild, you're a true hero.
  14. Voxom Member

    I'm the hero they deserve, but do not need. I can take all the FoTM flack, because I can. I'm the silent dps check master, a watchful guardian, a "Focused" knight.,
    Xillean and Azian like this.
  15. Wizard Member

    Thank you Silent dps check master for further illustrating the point. You switched to a Warlock because they are easier to play and Focused Casting is over powered, there is no shame in it.
  16. Voxom Member

    Because focused casting is overpowered. Not because they are easier to play, read post you quoted.
  17. Ucala Well-Known Member

    easier to play, lulz
  18. Entropy Well-Known Member

    Agree with you 100%. I have no idea how someone can claim to take an intellectual approach to class balance and in the same breath try to argue their point entirely from a "revenge" perspective (or "reparations", if you want to be a bit kinder with language, although I think a lot of people do actually see it more from the "i want you to suffer because i had to" angle).

    The whole "we felt underpowered for years so now you should too" argument is completely antithetical to meaningful game balance. I know devs don't think that way, so I'm not worried, but for f's sake, how can you as a reasonable, mature member of society actually take that attitude towards anything? That's the whole Affirmative Action concept taken to a wild extreme.
    Avahlynn likes this.
  19. Aniathor Member

    I lol'd.
  20. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    It isn't revenge. When Warlocks were the clear worst t1 dps class for an extremely long period of time, we were told that class balance isn't a "all classes are nearly the same at all times" sort of game, but more of a swinging pendulum, more of an ebb-and-flow, and that in the future we'd get our time.

    As soon as our time arrived, all of those who talked about ebb and flow now speak of equality. It is like playing Cops and Robbers, with the assumption that you'd switch roles later. Once time came to switch roles, now all of a sudden you want to play Cops and Cops.

    While I agree that class balance SHOULD be as even as possible as often as possible, it has in practice functioned as equality "over a period of time, but rarely equal at the same time" practice.
    Karsa likes this.